What My Fellow Liberals Don't Get About Venezuela

[iamwhatiseem]

I'm pretty sure the post before yours was from a liberal that was calling for the US to become a Socialist country like Finland, Norway and Sweden, Old Lady! I'm also pretty sure that the majority of liberals here would like to see a government run healthcare system as well as a "living wage"! My point is that you don't want to be CALLED Socialists and yet you'd like to see a socialistic agenda passed!

Not seeing Items 1 or 2 above. We have a "mixed" system that includes socialist programs to benefit the poor but we are still a capitalist nation. Maybe a mixture is the best solution, since either system in its pure form is open to great abuses.
Just note that what one poster here advocates does not automatically make it part of the Democratic platform.

Would you admit that the Democratic platform is veering to the left rather dramatically right now? Would it be an exaggeration to see this as a moment that could be a turning point in US political history? The progressive wing of the Democratic Party is demanding things that have moderate Democrats running for the hills. So who wins that battle?

Most people have sense. There are a lot more "moderates," left and right, than there are extremists.

I certainly would have agreed with you even 5 years ago.
There is a large under current of 20 somethings that are way the hell out there. Perhaps not to the level of the 60's, but not that far away from it.
There is a growing, and increasingly strong leftist branch for the past 10 years that is getting more and more.

I'm not at all happy with what has happened on the far right, either. Maybe the two extremes will eat each other.

That would be nice, but the far right has 1/10th the influence the far left does.
Course that depends on what one calls far right. I guess there are those that think any farther to the right than Joe Lieberman is.
Me, I am far more concerned with the corruption of corporatism and the continual takeover of America by the investor class. They do 1,000 times more damage to our way of life than the far-left/far-right combined..and doubled.

 

[Indeependent]

Excellent piece by a Venezuelan liberal saying how clueless the knee-jerk anti-Americans are about Venezuela.

Opinion | What My Fellow Liberals Don’t Get About Venezuela

In the video, because of two decades of Chavez and Maduro rule, she says

• There is total chaos in Venezuela - hunger, lack of medicines and power black-outs
• Liberals are promoting and glorifying a brutal dictator
• Inflation is at 2,690,000%. Venezuelan money is so worthless, people are literally making origami out of it.
  
• Malnutrition and lack of medicine has caused life expectancy to decline by 3 to 5 years.
  
• 3,000,000 million have fled the country causing a Syria-level refugee crisis
  
• Things have gotten so bad that kidnappers have stopped kidnapping because people can't pay ransoms
• The Left blame American sanctions for economic collapse. But the economy collapsed in 2016, before sanctions against Venezuelan oil companies were imposed.
• The only sanctions at that time were travel-bans and frozen bank accounts of individuals who were connected to the government and had stolen billions of dollars.
• Leftists who think the country is doing fine are on another planet
• American sanctions are to restore Venezuelan democracy.
  
• Fifty-one countries recently recognized the opposition leader, Juan Guaido as the interim President after the Maduro government fraudulently stored the last election
• Guaido is not a conservative. He is a social democrat.
• If there's one value liberal America appreciates, it's human rights. So liberals have to stop their moral relativism regarding Venezuela.
• American liberals should support humanitarian aid and efforts to restore democracy in Venezuela.

So what’s the problem?

 

[Tehon]

Not seeing Items 1 or 2 above. We have a "mixed" system that includes socialist programs to benefit the poor but we are still a capitalist nation. Maybe a mixture is the best solution, since either system in its pure form is open to great abuses.
Just note that what one poster here advocates does not automatically make it part of the Democratic platform.

Would you admit that the Democratic platform is veering to the left rather dramatically right now? Would it be an exaggeration to see this as a moment that could be a turning point in US political history? The progressive wing of the Democratic Party is demanding things that have moderate Democrats running for the hills. So who wins that battle?

Most people have sense. There are a lot more "moderates," left and right, than there are extremists.

I certainly would have agreed with you even 5 years ago.
There is a large under current of 20 somethings that are way the hell out there. Perhaps not to the level of the 60's, but not that far away from it.
There is a growing, and increasingly strong leftist branch for the past 10 years that is getting more and more.

I'm not at all happy with what has happened on the far right, either. Maybe the two extremes will eat each other.

That would be nice, but the far right has 1/10th the influence the far left does.
Course that depends on what one calls far right. I guess there are those that think any farther to the right than Joe Lieberman is.
Me, I am far more concerned with the corruption of corporatism and the continual takeover of America by the investor class. They do 1,000 times more damage to our way of life than the far-left/far-right combined..and doubled.

Perhaps they, the investor class, are the driving force that pushes people to the extreme.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Would you admit that the Democratic platform is veering to the left rather dramatically right now? Would it be an exaggeration to see this as a moment that could be a turning point in US political history? The progressive wing of the Democratic Party is demanding things that have moderate Democrats running for the hills. So who wins that battle?

Most people have sense. There are a lot more "moderates," left and right, than there are extremists.

I certainly would have agreed with you even 5 years ago.
There is a large under current of 20 somethings that are way the hell out there. Perhaps not to the level of the 60's, but not that far away from it.
There is a growing, and increasingly strong leftist branch for the past 10 years that is getting more and more.

I'm not at all happy with what has happened on the far right, either. Maybe the two extremes will eat each other.

That would be nice, but the far right has 1/10th the influence the far left does.
Course that depends on what one calls far right. I guess there are those that think any farther to the right than Joe Lieberman is.
Me, I am far more concerned with the corruption of corporatism and the continual takeover of America by the investor class. They do 1,000 times more damage to our way of life than the far-left/far-right combined..and doubled.

Perhaps they, the investor class, are the driving force that pushes people to the extreme.

Oh certainly.
I am 54.
When I started my career an actual pension...the real deal.. one that the employee did not contribute one dime into..was included as part of your compensation for pretty much any serious job. Health insurance was a few hundred dollars a month (for family) with a $500 deductible.
You got actual sick days...wait for it... on TOP of vacation days.
Today, unless you are in the public sector, pensions have all but disappeared.
Employee health insurance share is 4 times what it once was with outrageous deductibles.
Sick days simply disappeared. Vacation days were "renamed" PTO days and sick days vanished.
As well as cost of living raises. It use to be, you got an annual raise, and then a cost of living adjustment on TOP of that. That is unheard of now.
The middle class has lost so much - AND THE DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS have not done fuck all about it for the past 30 years. Indeed Obama did more for the investor class than Reagan himself could have ever dreamed of.

But by all means let's instead talk about the latest Trump outrage and his orange hair.

 

[Tehon]

Most people have sense. There are a lot more "moderates," left and right, than there are extremists.

I certainly would have agreed with you even 5 years ago.
There is a large under current of 20 somethings that are way the hell out there. Perhaps not to the level of the 60's, but not that far away from it.
There is a growing, and increasingly strong leftist branch for the past 10 years that is getting more and more.

I'm not at all happy with what has happened on the far right, either. Maybe the two extremes will eat each other.

That would be nice, but the far right has 1/10th the influence the far left does.
Course that depends on what one calls far right. I guess there are those that think any farther to the right than Joe Lieberman is.
Me, I am far more concerned with the corruption of corporatism and the continual takeover of America by the investor class. They do 1,000 times more damage to our way of life than the far-left/far-right combined..and doubled.

Perhaps they, the investor class, are the driving force that pushes people to the extreme.

Oh certainly.
I am 54.
When I started my career an actual pension...the real deal.. one that the employee did not contribute one dime into..was included as part of your compensation for pretty much any serious job. Health insurance was a few hundred dollars a month (for family) with a $500 deductible.
You got actual sick days...wait for it... on TOP of vacation days.
Today, unless you are in the public sector, pensions have all but disappeared.
Employee health insurance share is 4 times what it once was with outrageous deductibles.
Sick days simply disappeared. Vacation days were "renamed" PTO days and sick days vanished.
As well as cost of living raises. It use to be, you got an annual raise, and then a cost of living adjustment on TOP of that. That is unheard of now.
The middle class has lost so much - AND THE DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS have not done fuck all about it for the past 30 years. Indeed Obama did more for the investor class than Reagan himself could have ever dreamed of.

But by all means let's instead talk about the latest Trump outrage and his orange hair.

The politicians can't solve our problems. They use shiny objects to distract people's attention from that fact. The same class of people Trump is enriching, pay into the Democrat party in equal amounts.

 

[OldLady]

Not seeing Items 1 or 2 above. We have a "mixed" system that includes socialist programs to benefit the poor but we are still a capitalist nation. Maybe a mixture is the best solution, since either system in its pure form is open to great abuses.
Just note that what one poster here advocates does not automatically make it part of the Democratic platform.

Would you admit that the Democratic platform is veering to the left rather dramatically right now? Would it be an exaggeration to see this as a moment that could be a turning point in US political history? The progressive wing of the Democratic Party is demanding things that have moderate Democrats running for the hills. So who wins that battle?

Most people have sense. There are a lot more "moderates," left and right, than there are extremists.

I certainly would have agreed with you even 5 years ago.
There is a large under current of 20 somethings that are way the hell out there. Perhaps not to the level of the 60's, but not that far away from it.
There is a growing, and increasingly strong leftist branch for the past 10 years that is getting more and more.

I'm not at all happy with what has happened on the far right, either. Maybe the two extremes will eat each other.

It's more likely that the extremes will eat the moderate.

Don't you get the vapors, too, Tehon. You are too sensible for that.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Would you admit that the Democratic platform is veering to the left rather dramatically right now? Would it be an exaggeration to see this as a moment that could be a turning point in US political history? The progressive wing of the Democratic Party is demanding things that have moderate Democrats running for the hills. So who wins that battle?

Most people have sense. There are a lot more "moderates," left and right, than there are extremists.

I certainly would have agreed with you even 5 years ago.
There is a large under current of 20 somethings that are way the hell out there. Perhaps not to the level of the 60's, but not that far away from it.
There is a growing, and increasingly strong leftist branch for the past 10 years that is getting more and more.

I'm not at all happy with what has happened on the far right, either. Maybe the two extremes will eat each other.

It's more likely that the extremes will eat the moderate.

Don't you get the vapors, too, Tehon. You are too sensible for that.

What exactly is "the vapers"... thinking outside of right vs. left?

 

[OldLady]

Most people have sense. There are a lot more "moderates," left and right, than there are extremists.

I certainly would have agreed with you even 5 years ago.
There is a large under current of 20 somethings that are way the hell out there. Perhaps not to the level of the 60's, but not that far away from it.
There is a growing, and increasingly strong leftist branch for the past 10 years that is getting more and more.

I'm not at all happy with what has happened on the far right, either. Maybe the two extremes will eat each other.

It's more likely that the extremes will eat the moderate.

Don't you get the vapors, too, Tehon. You are too sensible for that.

What exactly is "the vapers"... thinking outside of right vs. left?

It's an old fashioned term for a woman fainting away from some upset. Women carried smelling salts (they were concentrated ammonia--believe it or not my mother actually had a bottle she carried in her purse and I got them stuck under my nose a time or two). I suppose that's where the term "vapors" came from.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I certainly would have agreed with you even 5 years ago.
There is a large under current of 20 somethings that are way the hell out there. Perhaps not to the level of the 60's, but not that far away from it.
There is a growing, and increasingly strong leftist branch for the past 10 years that is getting more and more.

I'm not at all happy with what has happened on the far right, either. Maybe the two extremes will eat each other.

It's more likely that the extremes will eat the moderate.

Don't you get the vapors, too, Tehon. You are too sensible for that.

What exactly is "the vapers"... thinking outside of right vs. left?

It's an old fashioned term for a woman fainting away from some upset. Women carried smelling salts (they were concentrated ammonia--believe it or not my mother actually had a bottle she carried in her purse and I got them stuck under my nose a time or two). I suppose that's where the term "vapors" came from.

View attachment 253481

Well that I knew, I mean why did you attribute it to Tehon?

 

[Tehon]

Would you admit that the Democratic platform is veering to the left rather dramatically right now? Would it be an exaggeration to see this as a moment that could be a turning point in US political history? The progressive wing of the Democratic Party is demanding things that have moderate Democrats running for the hills. So who wins that battle?

Most people have sense. There are a lot more "moderates," left and right, than there are extremists.

I certainly would have agreed with you even 5 years ago.
There is a large under current of 20 somethings that are way the hell out there. Perhaps not to the level of the 60's, but not that far away from it.
There is a growing, and increasingly strong leftist branch for the past 10 years that is getting more and more.

I'm not at all happy with what has happened on the far right, either. Maybe the two extremes will eat each other.

It's more likely that the extremes will eat the moderate.

Don't you get the vapors, too, Tehon. You are too sensible for that.

I'm not sure what you are getting at?

The people moving to the extremes are doing it for a reason. It's up to the sensible people to push past the rhetoric and understand why. It is of no use to sit and wish they would just disappear.

I think I'm about as far left as one could get. Yet, I can see where the people on the right are coming from. Their anger is real, just misplaced.

 

[OldLady]

I'm not at all happy with what has happened on the far right, either. Maybe the two extremes will eat each other.

It's more likely that the extremes will eat the moderate.

Don't you get the vapors, too, Tehon. You are too sensible for that.

What exactly is "the vapers"... thinking outside of right vs. left?

It's an old fashioned term for a woman fainting away from some upset. Women carried smelling salts (they were concentrated ammonia--believe it or not my mother actually had a bottle she carried in her purse and I got them stuck under my nose a time or two). I suppose that's where the term "vapors" came from.

View attachment 253481

Well that I knew, I mean why did you attribute it to Tehon?

Oh. Sorry. Tehon said he thinks the extremists will eat (destroy) the moderates in our country. To me that sounded quite alarmist. He is not usually alarmist. The extremists will not prevail. Just like on this board, they just make a whole lot of noise, which makes them seem like more than they are.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

It's more likely that the extremes will eat the moderate.

Don't you get the vapors, too, Tehon. You are too sensible for that.

What exactly is "the vapers"... thinking outside of right vs. left?

It's an old fashioned term for a woman fainting away from some upset. Women carried smelling salts (they were concentrated ammonia--believe it or not my mother actually had a bottle she carried in her purse and I got them stuck under my nose a time or two). I suppose that's where the term "vapors" came from.

View attachment 253481

Well that I knew, I mean why did you attribute it to Tehon?

Oh. Sorry. Tehon said he thinks the extremists will eat (destroy) the moderates in our country. To me that sounded quite alarmist. He is not usually alarmist. The extremists will not prevail. Just like on this board, they just make a whole lot of noise, which makes them seem like more than they are.

OldLady that is exactly what is happening.

 

[Tehon]

It's more likely that the extremes will eat the moderate.

Don't you get the vapors, too, Tehon. You are too sensible for that.

What exactly is "the vapers"... thinking outside of right vs. left?

It's an old fashioned term for a woman fainting away from some upset. Women carried smelling salts (they were concentrated ammonia--believe it or not my mother actually had a bottle she carried in her purse and I got them stuck under my nose a time or two). I suppose that's where the term "vapors" came from.

View attachment 253481

Well that I knew, I mean why did you attribute it to Tehon?

Oh. Sorry. Tehon said he thinks the extremists will eat (destroy) the moderates in our country. To me that sounded quite alarmist. He is not usually alarmist. The extremists will not prevail. Just like on this board, they just make a whole lot of noise, which makes them seem like more than they are.

I'm not being alarmist. I was playing off your rhetoric.

 

[Marion Morrison]

Also, I used to think that Pinochet was a Bad Guy. After this, maybe helicopter rides aren't such a bad idea after all

Yeah, you know it’s funny. I’ve never supported coups before. But After the absolute incompetence of two decades of socialist rule, you can make a strong humanitarian argument for it.

Regime change crap never works! It's like Lucy and Charlie Brown with the football.

I thought the Venezuelan in the OP was talking about the anti-American left IN HER OWN COUNTRY. Obviously, at least from what I've seen here, the left doesn't support that Maduro government at all. That's probably because the left in this country isn't actually socialist/communist as we are always being blamed.

I'm pretty sure the post before yours was from a liberal that was calling for the US to become a Socialist country like Finland, Norway and Sweden, Old Lady! I'm also pretty sure that the majority of liberals here would like to see a government run healthcare system as well as a "living wage"! My point is that you don't want to be CALLED Socialists and yet you'd like to see a socialistic agenda passed!

Not seeing Items 1 or 2 above. We have a "mixed" system that includes socialist programs to benefit the poor but we are still a capitalist nation. Maybe a mixture is the best solution, since either system in its pure form is open to great abuses.
Just note that what one poster here advocates does not automatically make it part of the Democratic platform.

Would you admit that the Democratic platform is veering to the left rather dramatically right now? Would it be an exaggeration to see this as a moment that could be a turning point in US political history? The progressive wing of the Democratic Party is demanding things that have moderate Democrats running for the hills. So who wins that battle?

Most people have sense. There are a lot more "moderates," left and right, than there are extremists.

I certainly would have agreed with you even 5 years ago.
There is a large under current of 20 somethings that are way the hell out there. Perhaps not to the level of the 60's, but not that far away from it.
There is a growing, and increasingly strong leftist branch for the past 10 years that is getting more and more.

Yeah, but they aren't equipped to think for themselves like kids in the 60s were.

 

[OldLady]

Don't you get the vapors, too, Tehon. You are too sensible for that.

What exactly is "the vapers"... thinking outside of right vs. left?

It's an old fashioned term for a woman fainting away from some upset. Women carried smelling salts (they were concentrated ammonia--believe it or not my mother actually had a bottle she carried in her purse and I got them stuck under my nose a time or two). I suppose that's where the term "vapors" came from.

View attachment 253481

Well that I knew, I mean why did you attribute it to Tehon?

Oh. Sorry. Tehon said he thinks the extremists will eat (destroy) the moderates in our country. To me that sounded quite alarmist. He is not usually alarmist. The extremists will not prevail. Just like on this board, they just make a whole lot of noise, which makes them seem like more than they are.

I'm not being alarmist. I was playing off your rhetoric.

Well that's a relief.

 

[Tehon]

What exactly is "the vapers"... thinking outside of right vs. left?

It's an old fashioned term for a woman fainting away from some upset. Women carried smelling salts (they were concentrated ammonia--believe it or not my mother actually had a bottle she carried in her purse and I got them stuck under my nose a time or two). I suppose that's where the term "vapors" came from.

View attachment 253481

Well that I knew, I mean why did you attribute it to Tehon?

Oh. Sorry. Tehon said he thinks the extremists will eat (destroy) the moderates in our country. To me that sounded quite alarmist. He is not usually alarmist. The extremists will not prevail. Just like on this board, they just make a whole lot of noise, which makes them seem like more than they are.

I'm not being alarmist. I was playing off your rhetoric.

Well that's a relief.

That being said, I do believe the country will continue to polarize so long as the underlying problems go unaddressed.

 

[Toro]

The fundamental principle that our country was founded on was the right to self determination. Our founding document conveys that very message. You can't call yourself a liberal and ignore it.

Good thing I don't call myself a liberal.

 

[Tehon]

The fundamental principle that our country was founded on was the right to self determination. Our founding document conveys that very message. You can't call yourself a liberal and ignore it.

Good thing I don't call myself a liberal.

Indeed.

You neocons are all the same.

 

[Toro]

The fundamental principle that our country was founded on was the right to self determination. Our founding document conveys that very message. You can't call yourself a liberal and ignore it.

Good thing I don't call myself a liberal.

Indeed.

You neocons are all the same.

I don't call myself a neocon either.

 

[Tehon]

The fundamental principle that our country was founded on was the right to self determination. Our founding document conveys that very message. You can't call yourself a liberal and ignore it.

Good thing I don't call myself a liberal.

Indeed.

You neocons are all the same.

I don't call myself a neocon either.

You don't have to self identify to be one. It is clear from your OP that you hold the same beliefs as one.

You believe in American exceptionalism and you think it is America's duty to intervene in Venezuela's affairs.