What must Israel do to "end the occupation"? (solutions thread)

[flacaltenn]

NONE of this concerns the TITLE of this thread which is about solutions to end the occupation.
And I'm not buying so much "stolen land" when I've seen the Deeds of Record for the original city centers in Israel..

You can't find a just solution to a problem without defining the problem.

The source of ALL the problems is the inability of the Palis to agree on representation that isn't known for airline hijackings and Olympic Village massacres and summary executions in the streets. THERE is the FUNDAMENTAL issue that has to solved before ANYONE "grants them statehood" or sovereignty....

You don't negotiate with rock throwers, street thugs knifing innocents, or folks who don't recognize Israels' right to exist.

 

[P F Tinmore]

NONE of this concerns the TITLE of this thread which is about solutions to end the occupation.
And I'm not buying so much "stolen land" when I've seen the Deeds of Record for the original city centers in Israel..

You can't find a just solution to a problem without defining the problem.

The source of ALL the problems is the inability of the Palis to agree on representation that isn't known for airline hijackings and Olympic Village massacres and summary executions in the streets. THERE is the FUNDAMENTAL issue that has to solved before ANYONE "grants them statehood" or sovereignty....

You don't negotiate with rock throwers, street thugs knifing innocents, or folks who don't recognize Israels' right to exist.

Nah, I think it is Israel's settler colonialism.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The problem and the solution.

 

[Slyhunter]

I intend this thread to be a "solutions" thread like those on the one, two and no more state solutions threads. For those not familiar with those threads -- the intent is not to re-hash the same old, same old, but to provide detailed, concrete suggestions for solving the conflict and moving forward.

The common refrain from the Palestinian side is that Israel must "end the occupation". What does that mean in concrete terms? What specific steps (military, practical, economic, political, legal) should Israel take? Do you think this should be done step-by-step or all at once? What measurable conditions will count the occupation ended?

Please be as specific as possible. For example, "end the blockade of Gaza" is too vague.

Be prepared to defend your proposals and explain why they are practical and will lead to an end of conflict agreement.

Kill all the Palestinians.
Problem solved.

 

[Hollie]

NONE of this concerns the TITLE of this thread which is about solutions to end the occupation.
And I'm not buying so much "stolen land" when I've seen the Deeds of Record for the original city centers in Israel..

You can't find a just solution to a problem without defining the problem.

The source of ALL the problems is the inability of the Palis to agree on representation that isn't known for airline hijackings and Olympic Village massacres and summary executions in the streets. THERE is the FUNDAMENTAL issue that has to solved before ANYONE "grants them statehood" or sovereignty....

You don't negotiate with rock throwers, street thugs knifing innocents, or folks who don't recognize Israels' right to exist.

Nah, I think it is Israel's settler colonialism.

Not at all. The situation faced by the Israelis is the same situation faced by.all other non-Islamists in the Sunni/Salafi/Wahhabi controlled Islamist East. It's a function of Islamist ideology and its intolerance to non-Islamists.

 

[Shusha]

The problem and the solution.

Do you watch these videos that you post, Tinmore? At 10:35 in the first video the speaker claims that "every single thing needed to sustain life has to be brought into Gaza through the tunnels". Its a lie. A blatant lie. Its not an exaggeration -- its a lie. You do not strike me as unintelligent. You know this is a lie.

So why do you support someone who lies this blatantly?

 

[Shusha]

P F Tinmore

Can you let me know where in that video he provides his ideas for a solution? I couldn't find it in my quick search. Or better yet, can you just summarize in a sentence or two?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

P F Tinmore

Can you let me know where in that video he provides his ideas for a solution? I couldn't find it in my quick search. Or better yet, can you just summarize in a sentence or two?

The point of any video that Tinmore might post is to demonize Israel, not to provide any solutions to the conflict.

 

[flacaltenn]

The problem and the solution.

Do you watch these videos that you post, Tinmore? At 10:35 in the first video the speaker claims that "every single thing needed to sustain life has to be brought into Gaza through the tunnels". Its a lie. A blatant lie. Its not an exaggeration -- its a lie. You do not strike me as unintelligent. You know this is a lie.

So why do you support someone who lies this blatantly?

I expect a lot of people buy some of this stuff whole. Happens in ALL subjects, not just the Israel/Pali topics. People don't critically listen and question anything anymore that feeds and nurtures their committed biases...

Can't listen to more than 2 minutes of ANY US "leader" speak without finding 2 misreprentations, a dodge and 1 blatant lie. But people don't seem to care.

 

[Challenger]

The Zionists didn't "make the desert bloom"

Zionist crock of crap. Food was Palestine's major export.

Along with olive oil and soap.

 

[Challenger]

I expect a lot of people buy some of this stuff whole. Happens in ALL subjects, not just the Israel/Pali topics. People don't critically listen and question anything anymore that feeds and nurtures their committed biases...

It was through critical thinking and questioning that I discovered that the Zionist narrative was one giant lie. Does the Palestinian side, lie? Of course they do, but when you balance out the lies and propaganda on both sides, the Zionists have been, by far, the biggest liars for decades.

 

[Challenger]

And I'm not buying so much "stolen land" when I've seen the Deeds of Record for the original city centers in Israel..

Actual deeds? Who issued the deeds? When and where did you see them? Which cities were involved?

 

[Challenger]

You can't find a just solution to a problem without defining the problem.

This makes sense. Define the problem then. What territory is occupied? Which peoples are occupied? How is occupation measured? How is the absence of occupation measured?

Define the problem? This might help.

 

[Challenger]

The source of ALL the problems is the inability of the Palis to agree on representation that isn't known for airline hijackings and Olympic Village massacres and summary executions in the streets.

The source of all the problems is Zionist Israel's inability (and by default, Zionist Israel's "*****", the USA) to accept the democratic decision of the Palestinian people. Hamas was freely and fairly elected and was ready to begin real negotiations, Even the US State Department began making formal contacts with the new government, until the Zionist regime played the "terrorist" card along with the "we won't negotiate until you recognise us" card.

Oh, please. Airline hi-jackings and the kidnapping of Israeli athletes were political gestures by extreme elements designed to focus world attention on the forgotten plight of the Palestinian people. They got your attention.

 

[Hollie]

The source of ALL the problems is the inability of the Palis to agree on representation that isn't known for airline hijackings and Olympic Village massacres and summary executions in the streets.

The source of all the problems is Zionist Israel's inability (and by default, Zionist Israel's "*****", the USA) to accept the democratic decision of the Palestinian people. Hamas was freely and fairly elected and was ready to begin real negotiations, Even the US State Department began making formal contacts with the new government, until the Zionist regime played the "terrorist" card along with the "we won't negotiate until you recognise us" card.

Oh, please. Airline hi-jackings and the kidnapping of Israeli athletes were political gestures by extreme elements designed to focus world attention on the forgotten plight of the Palestinian people. They got your attention.

plight of the Palestinian people™

 

[Shusha]

You can't find a just solution to a problem without defining the problem.

This makes sense. Define the problem then. What territory is occupied? Which peoples are occupied? How is occupation measured? How is the absence of occupation measured?

Define the problem? This might help.

Thank you! Yes, I entirely agree that this is exactly how the Palestinians define the problem.

No Jewish sovereignty. No Jewish presence. No Jewish rights. On any of the territory from the Mandate for Palestine.

That was the definition of the problem 100 years ago and that is still the problem now. And it is why it is impossible for Israel to "end the occupation".


The only was for Israel to "end the occupation" is to self-destruct. Anything less than that will not solve the problem according to the Palestinian definition above.

But here's where it gets stupid for the Palestinians -- the Palestinian definition of the problem means there is no way for the Palestinians to get what they want. They have set for themselves an unachievable goal.

 

[louie888]

...And it is why it is impossible for Israel to "end the occupation"....

Nope, More of of your bullshit.

Whoever feels like they require this brutal occupation/apartheid/mass murder and cannot resign themselves to live in peace need to leave.

Funny, how you still don't get it.

 

[Shusha]

...And it is why it is impossible for Israel to "end the occupation"....

Nope, More of of your bullshit.

Whoever feels like they require this brutal occupation/apartheid/mass murder and cannot resign themselves to live in peace need to leave.

Funny, how you still don't get it.

You are quite extravagantly re-defining the problem, then, as only one of "peace".

To be clear -- if you accept Jewish rights to the territory, Jewish presence and Jewish sovereignty over the territory -- there IS no occupation.

 

[louie888]

...And it is why it is impossible for Israel to "end the occupation"....

Nope, More of of your bullshit.

Whoever feels like they require this brutal occupation/apartheid/mass murder and cannot resign themselves to live in peace need to leave.

Funny, how you still don't get it.

You are quite extravagantly re-defining the problem, then, as only one of "peace".

To be clear -- if you accept Jewish rights to the territory, Jewish presence and Jewish sovereignty over the territory -- there IS no occupation.

No sane person accepts that.

Land ownership is not decided in any legitimate courtroom on earth based on the Jewish bible.

 

[Shusha]

No sane person accepts that.

Land ownership is not decided in any legitimate courtroom on earth based on the Jewish bible.

Land ownership and sovereignty are two entirely different issues. Do not confuse the two.

Jewish sovereignty is based on indigeneity and historical rights, not on religion. (Religious beliefs do not have the force of law, obviously).

So, it appears to me that your definition of the problem is with Jewish sovereignty and Jewish rights, but you will accept at least some Jewish presence. Even still, this makes it impossible for Israel to end the occupation without causing her own self-destruction. Something she will never do. And something she doesn't have to do, since she holds plenty of power in any way you want to measure it.