What must Israel do to "end the occupation"? (solutions thread)

[Shusha]

I intend this thread to be a "solutions" thread like those on the one, two and no more state solutions threads. For those not familiar with those threads -- the intent is not to re-hash the same old, same old, but to provide detailed, concrete suggestions for solving the conflict and moving forward.

The common refrain from the Palestinian side is that Israel must "end the occupation". What does that mean in concrete terms? What specific steps (military, practical, economic, political, legal) should Israel take? Do you think this should be done step-by-step or all at once? What measurable conditions will count the occupation ended?

Please be as specific as possible. For example, "end the blockade of Gaza" is too vague.

Be prepared to defend your proposals and explain why they are practical and will lead to an end of conflict agreement.

 

[P F Tinmore]

BDS has the only just solution.

 

[TheOldSchool]

Stop building settlements, stop blocking people who aren't from the one preferred religion from becoming citizens, and stop offering monetary rewards for people of specific religious backgrounds to move there. That would be a start. None of that will ever happen though. If it ever ends, which none of the sides involved wants anyways, it will have to end in blood like always.

 

[Hollie]

BDS has the only just solution.

The Islamic fascists in BDS have no solution.

 

[Shusha]

• Israeli arms sales to Europe grew from $724M in 2014 to $1.63B in 2015
• Although the size of New Jersey Israel is one of the top 10 arms dealing nations in the world
• Israel produces 60% of all drones worldwide and sells to over 50 countries, at times selling to both sides of a given conflict, and Israel fueled the drones arms race between India and Pakistan

Palestine is an open air weapons testing and crowd control laboratory with Palestinians being used in the development phase; Gaza is a lab of mass destruction. US super bunker busters were supplied to the Israelis in 2014 and investors stock shot up; war is just business after all.

The “War in Terror” has been a boon to the industry, you’ve seen what amounts to advertisement in every “news” outlet, we are being whipped up into a frenzy once again. The industry also pioneers crowd control research on the Palestinians, and Israel is involved in the training of American forces and law enforcement. We see this in the militarization of our own police departments, Ferguson was but one example of how our system is prepping to Palestinianize our own population, and in fact Ferguson now has Israeli developed/sold skunk spray post the Ferguson events, although no incidents have yet been reported of use on American streets. It’s pretty clear that the Israeli occupation style power structure is moving toward the same in America; a warehousing of the poor in a post industrial age with diminishing living wage jobs and privatized for profit prisons complete with a return to convict leasing.

Much of the security monitoring and mass surveillance technologies are also produced in Israel and sold across the globe. “Targeted assassination” was invented in Israel, which Obama was quite fond of. Abu Ghraib torture methods? Israel.

The US and Israel are not allies. The US and Israeli arms dealers are allies, and war is the business they are both in. We are all collateral damage.

Cutting pasting the same thing on multiple threads over and over and over again is neither thoughtful discussion nor a solution to the conflict.

 

[Shusha]

BDS has the only just solution.

Do tell. The solutions threads are not the place for one-liners. If BDS has a "solution", please summarize it or link to it.

 

[Shusha]

Stop building settlements...

Please elaborate. Be specific. Define terms. Refer specifically to Israel or to Area C. Preferrably use ethnic-neutral language (ie no new housing is to be built in Area C except to accommodate existing populations). Or if you use ethnic-specific language, and apply it only to one side of the conflict, defend that decision.

 

[TheOldSchool]

Stop building settlements...

Please elaborate. Be specific. Define terms. Refer specifically to Israel or to Area C. Preferrably use ethnic-neutral language (ie no new housing is to be built in Area C except to accommodate existing populations). Or if you use ethnic-specific language, and apply it only to one side of the conflict, defend that decision.

LOL. That's the one you address

Okay fine here's a good start for you:

http://www.un.org/webcast/pdfs/SRES2334-2016.pdf

 

[montelatici]

That UNSC Resolution spells it out. 1967 borders.

 

[Shusha]

Stop building settlements...

Please elaborate. Be specific. Define terms. Refer specifically to Israel or to Area C. Preferrably use ethnic-neutral language (ie no new housing is to be built in Area C except to accommodate existing populations). Or if you use ethnic-specific language, and apply it only to one side of the conflict, defend that decision.

LOL. That's the one you address

Okay fine here's a good start for you:

http://www.un.org/webcast/pdfs/SRES2334-2016.pdf

The relevant point being:

Reiterates its demand that Israel immediately and completely cease all settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, and that it fully respect all of its legal obligations in this regard;

Define what this means in concrete, practical terms.

 

[montelatici]

Careful, asking questions is part of the Hasbara troll play book. The UNSC states exactly what Israel must do, he is trying to inject confusion.

Hasbara Troll attributes

1. Supreme point of view
2. The Hasbara troll knows best
3. Condescending & Patronising
4. Socialist (Smart and 'caring')
5. Do not have to be Jewish but Pro-Israel
6. Internet experts
7. Narcissistic
8. Provocative
9. Disruptive
10. Like to ask the questions, not answer questions
11. Control freaks
12. Inflamed by anyone being critical of Israel
13. 'Moral' Guardians
14. Classic insults: Anti-semite, Neo- Nazi, White Supremacist, Holocaust denier
15. Adept with social networks well trained on IT

The Goyim's Guide to Hasbara Trolls from Jonathon Blakeley (March 28, 2016)

 

[Hollie]

Careful, asking questions is part of the Hasbara troll play book. The UNSC states exactly what Israel must do, he is trying to inject confusion.

Hasbara Troll attributes

1. Supreme point of view
2. The Hasbara troll knows best
3. Condescending & Patronising
4. Socialist (Smart and 'caring')
5. Do not have to be Jewish but Pro-Israel
6. Internet experts
7. Narcissistic
8. Provocative
9. Disruptive
10. Like to ask the questions, not answer questions
11. Control freaks
12. Inflamed by anyone being critical of Israel
13. 'Moral' Guardians
14. Classic insults: Anti-semite, Neo- Nazi, White Supremacist, Holocaust denier
15. Adept with social networks well trained on IT

The Goyim's Guide to Hasbara Trolls from Jonathon Blakeley (March 28, 2016)

On Cultic Christian Trolls - CultureWatch

Five problems with Christian trolls

What can be said about such cultic Christian trolls? Well, there are at least five areas of concern that can be mentioned:

-Lack of humility. One of the hallmarks of the biblical Christian is genuine humility, a teachable spirit, and an openness to learn. But these folks are in the exact opposite camp: they are arrogant, they think they know it all, and they refuse to listen to anyone else.

Thus by their very behaviour they show how far off they are from being true disciples of Jesus Christ. It is not just faulty doctrine that helps us identify a bogus believer, but faulty behaviour as well. When a person is arrogant, proud, pugilistic, and treats every other believer like dirt because they don’t go along with their pet issue, then you know all you need to know about their faith, or lack thereof.

-Lack of intelligence. One thing you find over and over again with these folks is that they really do not seem all that bright. Many are certainly not loving God with their minds as Jesus commanded us to do. And worse yet, you will hear these guys say so often, ‘I have studied this matter long and hard.’

Yeah right. In most cases that means they have watched a few dopey videos on the Internet by some nutter cultist and conspiracy theorist and now they think they have become an authority on the issue. They have not undertaken any serious study into various key fields, be it theology, biblical studies, church history, and so on. And they often have zero knowledge of the biblical languages.

In fact, they will even exult in how anti-theological and unlearned they are. They pride themselves in not being well read or informed, and seem to prefer revelling in their ignorance. These of course are all the characteristics of those so easily sucked into cults: they have checked their brains at the door and delight in being gullible, and easily led by others.

-Lack of focus. These folks are clearly majoring in minors, and seeking to fight to the death over something which even if they are right on (and usually they are not), is just a secondary matter at best. It is not something to go to the wall over, but these folks will do just that.

-Lack of orthodoxy. On some of these things they have moved straight into cult-land. They have become full-fledged Pharisees and legalists, condemning and attacking anyone and everyone who does not see eye to eye with their loopy and cultic positions.

Instead of concentrating on the key biblical indicators of orthodoxy, they have fixated on and become obsessed with some archaic and trivial matter, and made it the centre of their focus and energy. That is always an indication of cultism, not of biblical orthodoxy.

-Lack of Christian grace. These folks are simply trolls. They love to argue for the sake of arguing, ignoring all the passages I cite above. They show no Christian love and grace, and they exist only to prove themselves right on their foolish pet peeves.

 

[P F Tinmore]

BDS has the only just solution.

Do tell. The solutions threads are not the place for one-liners. If BDS has a "solution", please summarize it or link to it.

End the occupation of '67 land.

Equal rights for Palestinian citizens of Israel.

Right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and properties.

 

[flacaltenn]

I intend this thread to be a "solutions" thread like those on the one, two and no more state solutions threads. For those not familiar with those threads -- the intent is not to re-hash the same old, same old, but to provide detailed, concrete suggestions for solving the conflict and moving forward.

The common refrain from the Palestinian side is that Israel must "end the occupation". What does that mean in concrete terms? What specific steps (military, practical, economic, political, legal) should Israel take? Do you think this should be done step-by-step or all at once? What measurable conditions will count the occupation ended?

Please be as specific as possible. For example, "end the blockade of Gaza" is too vague.

Be prepared to defend your proposals and explain why they are practical and will lead to an end of conflict agreement.

Since there is no likely Pali Leadership to emerge here. At least none that won't be challenged and cause conflict among the Pali factions -- there needs to be a Palestinian protectorate CREATED for them. Israel can not and should do this alone. This needs to be a neighborhood solution.

There are now Palestinian camps in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan where their lives are much more grim than in the "occupied territorities" of Israel. These needs to be addressed with land swaps from those countries. In addition, the bounds of the new Protectorate need to include the VISION of making Palestine a center hub of commerce and trade in the Levant. Something SO attractive, it would hard to refuse. That means having access or CREATING access by road to Egypt, the Mediterranean thru Gaza, and into Jordan, Syria, Iraq. Establishing trade routes with Palestine as the CENTER of all that activity is the key point of any boundaries, settlement or plan. Should no consolidated Palestinian Authority emerge and stabilize during that period -- All land swaps would revert to the original owners.

It's a relatively small area that should receive an historic amount of infrastructure development. Funded internationally, and with LARGE donations from ALL Arab League countries. The trade corridor could EASILY be routed thru the Sinai and up the west coast (possibly both coasts) of the Dead Sea.

Administration of the Protectorate would be under joint authority of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, and if a miracle happens, Syria along with Israel and NATO and the Arab League. Israels role would be largely part of a mutual defense pact for the area and assuring it's security issues are fully addressed. There would be a 20 year limit on full handover to functioning Pali control. 10 years to self-governance, another 10 years of probation and security cooperation.

No right of return into 1967 Israel borders, but a portion of the West bank would remain under the Protectorate for a period of time that allows "mixed settlement" and guarantees that this area would be safe for Arabs, Jews, Christians to mix and mingle. Maybe forever. But STILL a part of the Palestinian Protectorate. This includes a corridor to Jerusalem East

If that doesn't ENTICE the Palestinians to form leadership and desire peace -- nothing would. To be specific, I'd expect to Egypt kick in a "western extension" to the Gaza strip. I'd expect to see Jordan and Lebanon CLOSE the awful detention camps and provide land swaps contiguous to the Palestinian Protectorate in exchange. And I'd expect to see Israel kick in the majority of the West Bank, and a "transportation corridor" thru the Southern tip of the state to connect Gaza, Egypt, with Palestine East and the rest of the neighborhood.

Maybe as part of the Syria settlement 1/2 or more of the Golan Heights could be ceded to the Protectorate in exchange for closing THEIR existing resettlement camps and a permanent Israeli claim to the rest of the Golan.

The thinking got stale. It was TOO FOCUSED on just what Israel and the Palis could work out. But the maps in that area are creations of past empires and never did make a lot a sense in the first place. And "peace" means a viable, SUSTAINABLE solution. Not just a redrawing of the maps..

 

[montelatici]

The UNSC Resolution provides the roadmap. Any "protectorate" or other term to obscure occupation and Jew control won't work.

 

[flacaltenn]

The UNSC Resolution provides the roadmap. Any "protectorate" or other term to obscure occupation and Jew control won't work.

You don't cede land to a CONCEPT. You cede land to a GOVERNMENT. And where in what I said is the "Jew control"??

 

[P F Tinmore]

The UNSC Resolution provides the roadmap. Any "protectorate" or other term to obscure occupation and Jew control won't work.

Indeed, enforcing international law and UN resolutions will solve the problem. No negotiations are necessary. We can no longer dance around the issues. That has not worked.

 

[Shusha]

The UNSC Resolution provides the roadmap. Any "protectorate" or other term to obscure occupation and Jew control won't work.

Indeed, enforcing international law and UN resolutions will solve the problem. No negotiations are necessary. We can no longer dance around the issues. That has not worked.

International law and UN resolutions REQUIRE negotiations.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The UNSC Resolution provides the roadmap. Any "protectorate" or other term to obscure occupation and Jew control won't work.

Indeed, enforcing international law and UN resolutions will solve the problem. No negotiations are necessary. We can no longer dance around the issues. That has not worked.

International law and UN resolutions REQUIRE negotiations.

You don't negotiate law and rights.

 

[flacaltenn]

And you don't give up land and control to a CONCEPT either.

You need MORE than a concept to get a sovereign state.
When you think that's gonna happen?