What makes you support one or the other?

[Penelope]

I thought it was supposed to be a no propaganda thread. Oh, well.

A smart saying claims that 'each conflict has two sides. Unless it personally involves you. In that case, there's only one'.

I come from a family of Ashkenazi immigrant Jews, family of Weiszmann. They were sent to Israel under the sponsorship of Rotchild, and lived in the area since 1883.

My great grandmother, Hadassah, was born in Israel. So was my grandmother, and so wasmy mom.

These days people call them 'illegal settlers' for some reason, even though their IDs pointed at them as native Palestinian.

They were in Israel before all those 'free Palestine' movements were invented, and when the Arab riots started, the great rebellions, they had a huge farm. The farm was burned down by Arabs and they were forced out of their own lands, escaped further south.

They call us land thiefs, but I reject the thinking, as my own lands were stolen back then.

And THAT tthe slighest diffefence between truths and half truths.

My faher's family escaped Europe after the wad, and my father grew up here.

My family, from both sides, has a praised military background. My parents served in the IDF each more than 20 years. My father served in battle in 1967, and 1973. His older brother was one of the soldiers who freed Jerusalem.

I served in the navy for 2 years. I lived in the south my entire life. I plan to have my future cchildren raised here.

That's my story. There is no 'side' to choose. I will follow my family's legacy, and so willthe next generation.

So your third generation then, many Pals have more generations behind them. As you said
" Ashkenazi immigrant Jews" you are immigrants. I understand your position but the actions of your government I do not agree with, and well to be frank, not knowing your age, you can't deny that your gov had been confiscating the land of the Pals for years, and your family has helped in that.

 

[Lipush]

I thought it was supposed to be a no propaganda thread. Oh, well.

A smart saying claims that 'each conflict has two sides. Unless it personally involves you. In that case, there's only one'.

I come from a family of Ashkenazi immigrant Jews, family of Weiszmann. They were sent to Israel under the sponsorship of Rotchild, and lived in the area since 1883.

My great grandmother, Hadassah, was born in Israel. So was my grandmother, and so wasmy mom.

These days people call them 'illegal settlers' for some reason, even though their IDs pointed at them as native Palestinian.

They were in Israel before all those 'free Palestine' movements were invented, and when the Arab riots started, the great rebellions, they had a huge farm. The farm was burned down by Arabs and they were forced out of their own lands, escaped further south.

They call us land thiefs, but I reject the thinking, as my own lands were stolen back then.

And THAT tthe slighest diffefence between truths and half truths.

My faher's family escaped Europe after the wad, and my father grew up here.

My family, from both sides, has a praised military background. My parents served in the IDF each more than 20 years. My father served in battle in 1967, and 1973. His older brother was one of the soldiers who freed Jerusalem.

I served in the navy for 2 years. I lived in the south my entire life. I plan to have my future cchildren raised here.

That's my story. There is no 'side' to choose. I will follow my family's legacy, and so willthe next generation.

So your third generation then, many Pals have more generations behind them. As you said
" Ashkenazi immigrant Jews" you are immigrants. I understand your position but the actions of your government I do not agree with, and well to be frank, not knowing your age, you can't deny that your gov had been confiscating the land of the Pals for years, and your family has helped in that.

I don't speak as defender ofmy government, as I said before, and you yourself played the offended for some reason , I believe them all to be no goods. 120 LOSERS.

I am 25. Pretty young and still have dreams. M parents fought wars and the government is using them like they know best. I didn't vote Likud and I don't like Netanyahu.

But I cherish my homeland, because my family sacrifised iitself for it and because it's my home.

I love my district, even though its views as ''god forsakened desert''.

'''Immigrants''? Of couse we are immigrants, but so were the Palestinians, or did the land creat them to sit on it out of the blue??

I'm rooted in this land, so who is anybody to call us 'land thieves'? They may have burned our ranch but history cannot be changesd, and it is as it is.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I support a culture where women are doctors and scientists instead of mere brood mares, killed for honor.

I support a culture where gay pride parades are held openly in major cities instead of gay people being tortured and killed.

I support a culture that is a world leader in green technology instead of one that produces nothing but hatred and violence.

I support a culture that represents the aspirations of a small minority instead of those of a vast majority that persecutes it relentlessly.

In short, I choose to support liberal culture instead of primitive, knuckle-dragging troglodytes who would send us to the dark ages with their backwardness.

 

[Saigon]

Dogmpahobe -

The right for people to live where they live is not a beauty contest. Germany and France do not exist because we want them to, or because we admire their art or food. Those countries exist based on thousands of years of living on that land.

Palestinians have lived in the Levant for 3,000 years in some form or another, and on that basis they have a right to stay there, surely.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Dogmpahobe -

The right for people to live where they live is not a beauty contest. Germany and France do not exist because we want them to, or because we admire their art or food. Those countries exist based on thousands of years of living on that land.

Palestinians have lived in the Levant for 3,000 years in some form or another, and on that basis they have a right to stay there, surely.

There was no such thing as "Palestinian" until very recent times. If you are referring to Arabs, they arose 1400 years ago, not 3000. Since it is Jews who have lived in the Levant for over 3000 years, and Arabs persecute Jews relentlessly, about the only sensible thing to do would be to form a Jewish state in part of the Levant and an Arab in another.

.....which, is precisely what occurred with the establishment of Jordan


You don't seem to understand the difference between D.N.A. and culture. Modern day Palestinians differ little from modern day Jews in terms of D.N.A. They both arose in the same region, so this should be expected. What differentiates them is the fact that Jewish identity dates back over 3000 years, while Palestinian identity stretches back a mere 50-100. With this in mind, and with the inability of Arabs to stop hating anybody who isn't Arab, why should Arabs get it all?

 

[Saigon]

I thought it was supposed to be a no propaganda thread. Oh, well.

A smart saying claims that 'each conflict has two sides. Unless it personally involves you. In that case, there's only one'.

I come from a family of Ashkenazi immigrant Jews, family of Weiszmann. They were sent to Israel under the sponsorship of Rotchild, and lived in the area since 1883.

My great grandmother, Hadassah, was born in Israel. So was my grandmother, and so wasmy mom.

These days people call them 'illegal settlers' for some reason, even though their IDs pointed at them as native Palestinian.

They were in Israel before all those 'free Palestine' movements were invented, and when the Arab riots started, the great rebellions, they had a huge farm. The farm was burned down by Arabs and they were forced out of their own lands, escaped further south.

They call us land thiefs, but I reject the thinking, as my own lands were stolen back then.

And THAT tthe slighest diffefence between truths and half truths.

My faher's family escaped Europe after the wad, and my father grew up here.

My family, from both sides, has a praised military background. My parents served in the IDF each more than 20 years. My father served in battle in 1967, and 1973. His older brother was one of the soldiers who freed Jerusalem.

I served in the navy for 2 years. I lived in the south my entire life. I plan to have my future cchildren raised here.

That's my story. There is no 'side' to choose. I will follow my family's legacy, and so willthe next generation.

Thanks for posting that, Lipush - it's always great to hear something so open and personal.

I totally understand your thinking in saying that there is no question of choosing sides. Most of us live where our parents live, more or less, without ever thinking about it that way, as if there were real choice involved, or as if the land we chose to live on might be somehow right or wrong.

 

[Vigilante]

Now why should ANY American support Israel.... It's in out BEST INTEREST!

 

[Humanity]

I support a culture where women are doctors and scientists instead of mere brood mares, killed for honor.

I support a culture where gay pride parades are held openly in major cities instead of gay people being tortured and killed.

I support a culture that is a world leader in green technology instead of one that produces nothing but hatred and violence.

I support a culture that represents the aspirations of a small minority instead of those of a vast majority that persecutes it relentlessly.

In short, I choose to support liberal culture instead of primitive, knuckle-dragging troglodytes who would send us to the dark ages with their backwardness.

No name calling, no propaganda Dogmaphobe

Would be nice to try and keep this one 'clean'.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

No name calling, no propaganda Dogmaphobe

Would be nice to try and keep this one 'clean'.

What would be nice would be for you to stop being a jack-booted authoritarian who only attempts this sort of maneuver against those who do not share your hatred for the Jewish state.

You certainly had an opportunity for this sort of thing around post #7, and so it is patently obvious that it isn't a "clean" discussion you seek, but an echo chamber.

 

[Phoenall]

Israel can only survive in a corrupted international system.
It has striven to further corrupt the world at a time when there were various moves (post WWII) to make sure there are strong international institutional bodies championing consistent and generally fair laws.

Israel has championed theft and annexation through force, occupation, assassination, being false to allies, racism, murder, mass spying, totalitarian control of populations, calling war of aggression "preemptive action", disproportionate attacks, collective punishment for populations, confounding law, side-lining justice, torture, imprisonment of children, bribery and extortion, and STILL persuades its (Israeli) population to support it as they are made to bleed and pay massively inflated prices, so the richest powerful people can be richer and more powerful.

And they claim the state has a religious foundation!

Israel: Twinned with Mordor.

What has Israel stolen then, that was not theirs to begin with. What has been annexed, who murdered, what war of aggression, what collective punishments. Were are your proofs of this happening that are non partisan. As in the recent ICJ announcement that says that Israel is innocent. Care to describe the UK taxes that under a left wing government saw pensioners deprived of their income to pay for uncontrolled immigration by the unemployable. How stealth taxes were introduced every day to pay for the lefts failure to balance the books. Compared to those harsh realities Israel is a Utopia. compared to life under Hamas Israel is Paradise, compared to the bloodshed in Syria Israel is calm and safe.

 

[Phoenall]

Always easy to say how we don't support violence when not being threatened by it ourselves. But eventually you can't keep pulling back or withdrawing because your aggressor keeps advancing on you. Sometimes you have to fight, and that's where Israel's at.

Israel fought from before its inception because it IS the aggressor.

Fighting now is the making of the Palestinians. If Israel capitulates, Israel ceases to exist. If the Palestinians capitulate there's peace. Not more complicated than that. Unfortunately, the people behind the Palestinian curtain aren't also in the territories so have no reason to give up. Then can pick the scab open as it were indefinately.

That turns reality on its head. Every time there is peace Israel takes another piece.
Never has Palestine taken a piece of Israel land through force of arms. Never.

You are not mistaken Delta. You just lie.

Then produce your EVIDENCE or retract your false accusations.

 

[Saigon]

Dogma -

I'm not sure you really registered my point earlier. I'll try and explain it a little more clearly.

I've been to some awful, godforsaken countries; places whose culture I can't see much positive about. Places that were backward, negative and often hostile.

In no case did I question whether those people had a right to live on that land, or whether that country deserve to exist.

If people have lived on land for generation after generation; whether called Prussians, Hannoverians, Germans, Aryans or Teutons; it doesn't much matter what we think or what we call them. It's their land.

I have spent a lot of time in the Middle East, and a lot of time in both Israel and with Palestinians. I don't see how anyone can say that either side should have to up sticks and leave. They have the same rights to live with their forefathers live as any other people.

 

[Phoenall]

I support a culture where women are doctors and scientists instead of mere brood mares, killed for honor.

I support a culture where gay pride parades are held openly in major cities instead of gay people being tortured and killed.

I support a culture that is a world leader in green technology instead of one that produces nothing but hatred and violence.

I support a culture that represents the aspirations of a small minority instead of those of a vast majority that persecutes it relentlessly.

In short, I choose to support liberal culture instead of primitive, knuckle-dragging troglodytes who would send us to the dark ages with their backwardness.

No name calling, no propaganda Dogmaphobe

Would be nice to try and keep this one 'clean'.

Where is the name calling and propaganda, or are you selectively editing the parts out that you don't want to see. Those parts are the reality that is islam, and what Palestine is based on a 7C moon god cult

 

[Saigon]

What has Israel stolen then, that was not theirs to begin with.

The West Bank, basically.

Historically, Jews have never really lived in any of the land except Jericho. There is really no question amongst Israelis that towns like Nablus and Ramallah are Palestinian towns, anymore so than there is any question amongst Palestinians that Tel Aviv or Qiryat Shemonah are Jewish areas.

I don't see this issue as being particularly complex. It may be that a just settlement would see Israel now keep 10% - 15% of the West Bank and trade land for it, and in some cases that might be best for everyone, but I don't think anyone who really understands a thing about this conflict honestly believes a town like Nablus belongs in Israel.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Dogma -

I'm not sure you really registered my point earlier. I'll try and explain it a little more clearly.

I've been to some awful, godforsaken countries; places whose culture I can't see much positive about. Places that were backward, negative and often hostile.

In no case did I question whether those people had a right to live on that land, or whether that country deserve to exist.

If people have lived on land for generation after generation; whether called Prussians, Hannoverians, Germans, Aryans or Teutons; it doesn't much matter what we think or what we call them. It's their land.

I have spent a lot of time in the Middle East, and a lot of time in both Israel and with Palestinians. I don't see how anyone can say that either side should have to up sticks and leave. They have the same rights to live with their forefathers live as any other people.

There are people right now in Malmo and London and Brussels and Paris who now cannot live on or even enter the land of their Fathers, so if you are going to try to establish a principle, then you need to do so across the board and not so selectively.

The principle I use would be one similar to the establishment of Pakistan, in that when two different people simply cannot coexist, then a certain winnowing of populations can result as an alternative to permanent internecine hostility. In the case of Arabs and Jews, the figures generally accepted for the displacement of Arabs is around 600-700 thousand taking into account those who fled voluntarily and those who fled because of immediate hostilities. During the same time period close to a million Jews were displaced from Arab lands, however, so there has ALREADY been a winnowing. It's just that the fucking Arabs won't let the damn thing go due to their supremacist nature. They want it both ways -- no Jews in their lands and unfettered ability to be in Jewish.

I support EQUAL rights vis a vis Arab and Jewish rather than this Arab Supremacism.

 

[Saigon]

Dogmaphobe -

I hold the right of all people to a homeland to be entirely equal. Yes, there are Kurds, Sikhs and Tibetans who will never have those rights, and I think that is genuinely a loss to the international community. I also hope those issues will be solved one day, although I'm not wildly hopeful.

I really have no idea what you mean by 'supremacism' here. Certainly there is no shortage of messiainic visions and heavenly visions on either side. Ever heard of extremist Jews envisaging a Jewish homeland that extends all the way to Babylon?!

Of course the Palestinians aren't going to 'let the damn thing go', and neither should they. Neither should the Jews.

I think it's a popular misconception that Palestinians could have, at any point in the past 50 years, simply melted back into Egypt or Jordan, but I've never felt that was realistic or desirable. They'd have been outcasts and outsiders there too, much as Bengalis were in Pakistan during the 1950's. They would never really have settled entirely, even if many Palestinians are fairly happy and settled in Jordan today. It's always been a kind of interim solution for both sides.

 

[Coyote]

Dogmaphobe -

I hold the right of all people to a homeland to be entirely equal. Yes, there are Kurds, Sikhs and Tibetans who will never have those rights, and I think that is genuinely a loss to the international community. I also hope those issues will be solved one day, although I'm not wildly hopeful.

I really have no idea what you mean by 'supremacism' here. Certainly there is no shortage of messiainic visions and heavenly visions on either side. Ever heard of extremist Jews envisaging a Jewish homeland that extends all the way to Babylon?!

Of course the Palestinians aren't going to 'let the damn thing go', and neither should they. Neither should the Jews.

I think it's a popular misconception that Palestinians could have, at any point in the past 50 years, simply melted back into Egypt or Jordan, but I've never felt that was realistic or desirable. They'd have been outcasts and outsiders there too, much as Bengalis were in Pakistan during the 1950's. They would never really have settled entirely, even if many Palestinians are fairly happy and settled in Jordan today. It's always been a kind of interim solution for both sides.

There is another difference between the Palestinians and many of these other groups. As it stands now, manyPalestinians lack not only a homeland, but citizenship in any state. They are stateless and have no rights because they are not citzens of any state.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

There is another difference between the Palestinians and many of these other groups. As it stands now, manyPalestinians lack not only a homeland, but citizenship in any state. They are stateless and have no rights because they are not citzens of any state.

If they actually wanted a state, they would have had one at the camp David accords.

They chose yet more terrorism, instead.

 

[Penelope]

I thought it was supposed to be a no propaganda thread. Oh, well.

A smart saying claims that 'each conflict has two sides. Unless it personally involves you. In that case, there's only one'.

I come from a family of Ashkenazi immigrant Jews, family of Weiszmann. They were sent to Israel under the sponsorship of Rotchild, and lived in the area since 1883.

My great grandmother, Hadassah, was born in Israel. So was my grandmother, and so wasmy mom.

These days people call them 'illegal settlers' for some reason, even though their IDs pointed at them as native Palestinian.

They were in Israel before all those 'free Palestine' movements were invented, and when the Arab riots started, the great rebellions, they had a huge farm. The farm was burned down by Arabs and they were forced out of their own lands, escaped further south.

They call us land thiefs, but I reject the thinking, as my own lands were stolen back then.

And THAT tthe slighest diffefence between truths and half truths.

My faher's family escaped Europe after the wad, and my father grew up here.

My family, from both sides, has a praised military background. My parents served in the IDF each more than 20 years. My father served in battle in 1967, and 1973. His older brother was one of the soldiers who freed Jerusalem.

I served in the navy for 2 years. I lived in the south my entire life. I plan to have my future cchildren raised here.

That's my story. There is no 'side' to choose. I will follow my family's legacy, and so willthe next generation.

So your third generation then, many Pals have more generations behind them. As you said
" Ashkenazi immigrant Jews" you are immigrants. I understand your position but the actions of your government I do not agree with, and well to be frank, not knowing your age, you can't deny that your gov had been confiscating the land of the Pals for years, and your family has helped in that.

I don't speak as defender ofmy government, as I said before, and you yourself played the offended for some reason , I believe them all to be no goods. 120 LOSERS.

I am 25. Pretty young and still have dreams. M parents fought wars and the government is using them like they know best. I didn't vote Likud and I don't like Netanyahu.

But I cherish my homeland, because my family sacrifised iitself for it and because it's my home.

I love my district, even though its views as ''god forsakened desert''.

'''Immigrants''? Of couse we are immigrants, but so were the Palestinians, or did the land creat them to sit on it out of the blue??

I'm rooted in this land, so who is anybody to call us 'land thieves'? They may have burned our ranch but history cannot be changesd, and it is as it is.

Dogmpahobe -

The right for people to live where they live is not a beauty contest. Germany and France do not exist because we want them to, or because we admire their art or food. Those countries exist based on thousands of years of living on that land.

Palestinians have lived in the Levant for 3,000 years in some form or another, and on that basis they have a right to stay there, surely.

There was no such thing as "Palestinian" until very recent times. If you are referring to Arabs, they arose 1400 years ago, not 3000. Since it is Jews who have lived in the Levant for over 3000 years, and Arabs persecute Jews relentlessly, about the only sensible thing to do would be to form a Jewish state in part of the Levant and an Arab in another.

.....which, is precisely what occurred with the establishment of Jordan


You don't seem to understand the difference between D.N.A. and culture. Modern day Palestinians differ little from modern day Jews in terms of D.N.A. They both arose in the same region, so this should be expected. What differentiates them is the fact that Jewish identity dates back over 3000 years, while Palestinian identity stretches back a mere 50-100. With this in mind, and with the inability of Arabs to stop hating anybody who isn't Arab, why should Arabs get it all?

Are you trying to make Abraham a Jew, as that doesn't work. Now we know there was a tribe back then that spoke Hebrew and were called Hebrews and that is what Abraham was. He surely did not follow the laws of Moses who was also said to be Hebrew, but Jews were not invented back then.

Hebrew was a lost language until taught again in the 1900's.

 

[Coyote]

There is another difference between the Palestinians and many of these other groups. As it stands now, manyPalestinians lack not only a homeland, but citizenship in any state. They are stateless and have no rights because they are not citzens of any state.

If they actually wanted a state, they would have had one at the camp David accords.

They chose yet more terrorism, instead.

They were not included in the Camp David Accords.

UN Rejection of the Middle East Framework
The UN General Assembly rejected the Framework for Peace in the Middle East, because the agreement was concluded without participation of UN and PLO and did not comply with the Palestinian right of return, of self-determination and to national independence and sovereignty. December 1978, she declared in Resolution 33/28 A, that agreements were only valid if they are within the framework of the United Nations and its Charter and its resolutions, include the Palestinian right of return and the right to national independence and sovereignty in Palestine, and concluded with the participation of the PLO. Also the passive attitude of the Security Council was criticised.[18] On 6 December 1979, the UN condemned in Resolution 34/70 all partial agreements and separate treaties that did not meet the Palestinian rights and comprehensive solutions to peace; she condemned Israel's continued occupation and demanded withdrawal from all occupied territories.[19] On 12 December, in Resolution 34/65 B, she rejected more specific parts of the Camp David Accords and similar agreements, which were not in accordance with mentioned requirements. All such partial agreements and separate treaties were strongly condemned. The part of the Camp David accords regarding the Palestinian future and all similar ones were declared invalid.[20]