What is your background/interest in the Middle East?

[Artevelde]

What form of punishment do the Palestinians engage in when they shoot rockets into Israeli cities or send suicide bombers into children's schools and pizza parlors? I think you have some type of virus in your brain that makes you see everything upside down. Or perhaps you read from and follow the Mein Kampf I mean Koran.

Roudy -

Sending suicide bomber into a school is an act of terrorism.

Bulldozing all of the fields surrounding the village the terrorist lived in is an active of collective punishment. Arresting and detaining 20 young men from the village as a warning is an act of colletive punishment.

You will never get to Square One in this debate unless you can understand why both are both morally indefensible, and why both are counter-productive.

I disagree with certain of the forms of collective punishment that Israel uses because they are unjustified and/or ineffective. But I also strongly disagree with the equation you make between these actions and suicide terrorism.

 

[Artevelde]

Roudy -

As is so often the case, you are missing the point. I'll try again:

Bulldozing a terrorists house is fine with me.

Bulldozing the entire street, and the houses of 20 innocent familes, is an act of collective punishment.

Bulldozing the crops of an entire village is an act of collective punishment.

I would have to agree with that.

 

[Saigon]

Artevelde -

Just to be clear here, I consider any act of murder to be far worse than any act which does not take life. Terror is an act of murder, and thus far worse than collective punishment, which does not cost lives.

For me this is a bit like comparing rape and burglary - both are serious crimes, but most of us would expext the former to carry a stiffer sentence.

 

[Lipush]

Terrorists attack civilians.


That Israeli terrorist name calling thing is just propaganda.

I don't agree with that - Hamas have attacked civilians on numerous occasions.

I certainly consider both Hamas and Hezbollah to be terrorist organisations because they both have military wings which commit acts of terror - much like the IRA with the wider Sinn Fein organisation.

Both Hamas and Hezbollah also do a lot of good work with their own people (providing relief aid, housing, healthcare), but that does not mean they do not also commit acts of terror.

It is misleading to say that Hamas attacks civilians. "Civilian" is not the definitive term in international law. The term used is protected persons. Not all civilians are protected persons. Active militants, for example, are not protected persons even though they are civilians. Only when protected persons are targeted is it terrorism.

The nationals of an occupying power (in this case Israeli citizens) are also exempt from the protected persons class.

In that case Americans are not civilians either.

It does not matter the least how you chose to call it, it still unarmed people, innocent people. That is the defenision of "civilian".

Poteto potato. No excuse is there to harm us, we did nothing to hurt anyone (southerners).

 

[P F Tinmore]

I don't agree with that - Hamas have attacked civilians on numerous occasions.

I certainly consider both Hamas and Hezbollah to be terrorist organisations because they both have military wings which commit acts of terror - much like the IRA with the wider Sinn Fein organisation.

Both Hamas and Hezbollah also do a lot of good work with their own people (providing relief aid, housing, healthcare), but that does not mean they do not also commit acts of terror.

It is misleading to say that Hamas attacks civilians. "Civilian" is not the definitive term in international law. The term used is protected persons. Not all civilians are protected persons. Active militants, for example, are not protected persons even though they are civilians. Only when protected persons are targeted is it terrorism.

The nationals of an occupying power (in this case Israeli citizens) are also exempt from the protected persons class.

In that case Americans are not civilians either.

This raises some interesting questions.

It does not matter the least how you chose to call it, it still unarmed people, innocent people. That is the defenision of "civilian".

Indeed.

Israeli citizens are an integral and necessary part of the occupation. If it were not for its citizens, Israel would be no more than an office in tel Aviv.

Poteto potato. No excuse is there to harm us, we did nothing to hurt anyone (southerners).

See above.

 

[Urbanguerrilla]

Well, Stoner's interest is spam.

"Rep System Guidelines: Our reputation system is designed to provide a feedback and credibility mechanism."

P F Tinmore Rep Power: 0
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"PF Tinmore is off the scale"

Wtf are you talking about???

You're in exactly the same position as him:

JStone
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You're like the dumbest kid in class calling the kid beside you 'an idiot'

 

[High_Gravity]

Well, Stoner's interest is spam.

"Rep System Guidelines: Our reputation system is designed to provide a feedback and credibility mechanism."

P F Tinmore Rep Power: 0
Join Date: Dec 2009
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"PF Tinmore is off the scale"

Wtf are you talking about???

You're in exactly the same position as him:

JStone
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 13,998
Thanks: 423
Thanked 920 Times in 834 Posts
Rep Power: 0

You're like the dumbest kid in class calling the kid beside you 'an idiot'

Well to be fair the only reason JStone's rep is 0 now is because he is banned.

 

[High_Gravity]

Roudy -

As is so often the case, you are missing the point. I'll try again:

Bulldozing a terrorists house is fine with me.

Bulldozing the entire street, and the houses of 20 innocent familes, is an act of collective punishment.

Bulldozing the crops of an entire village is an act of collective punishment.

Israel is not bulldozing crops of fields or an entire street in retaliation for terrorism. Your appeasement mindset will never work with Islamists and will be interpreted as a sign of weakness which will only embolden the enemy. Not too long ago, Israel evacuated Gaza and gave the Palestinians their wish, made it Jew free. It forcibly removed it's own citizens from the land it had conquered in a defensive war. You would expect some appreciation and gratitute for this step, and some good will in return from the Palestinians. But as expected and predicted, the Palestinians proved once again, that they were and will never be interested in peace with Israel. The evacuation of Gaza also proved that it is not land alone that will appease the Palestinians. It became clear to Israel and the world, through subsequent actions of the Palestinians in Gaza (rocket shootings, terrorism, the usual savagery, etc., ALL TOTALLY UNPROVOKED) that it is the destruction of Israel and murder of Jews that will only satisfy them. And the only land that will satisfy the Palestinians will be the entire land that the state of Israel sits on.

I don't see what the problem really is here. The Palestinian Hamas leaders keep telling the Muslim world in Arabic that they will never accept Israel's right to exist, never honor any agreement until the entire "Zionist Entity" is destoyed and instead an Islamist Kalifate of Palestine replaces it. Their charter also clearly calls for the destruction of Israel and massacre of Jews (it is important to note that Hamas wants all Jews, Israeli or not, dead). And quite clearly, they are following their charter and ideology to the T. Yet somehow, there are morons like you, that keep telling us non of this matters much, Israel is to ignore all of this and trust these animals as honorable and peaceful people, and reward the Hamas savages with even more land, that isn't there's to begin with. Only a person on drugs or totally delusional would this way. Either way, you're dreaming. With every day that passes by, there will be less land to talk about. Time is against the Palestinian side. When Iran and Syria collapse, so will the financing and sponsorship of Palestinian terror. Their hand is weakening by the minute.

Well I do have to agree with this, Hamas wants all of Israel, not just Gaza.

 

[Urbanguerrilla]

"Rep System Guidelines: Our reputation system is designed to provide a feedback and credibility mechanism."

P F Tinmore Rep Power: 0
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,512
"PF Tinmore is off the scale"

Wtf are you talking about???

You're in exactly the same position as him:

JStone
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 13,998
Thanks: 423
Thanked 920 Times in 834 Posts
Rep Power: 0

You're like the dumbest kid in class calling the kid beside you 'an idiot'

Well to be fair the only reason JStone's rep is 0 now is because he is banned.

And that sir, is a good thing...lets parrrtttaaaayy

 

[P F Tinmore]

Roudy -

As is so often the case, you are missing the point. I'll try again:

Bulldozing a terrorists house is fine with me.

Bulldozing the entire street, and the houses of 20 innocent familes, is an act of collective punishment.

Bulldozing the crops of an entire village is an act of collective punishment.

Israel is not bulldozing crops of fields or an entire street in retaliation for terrorism. Your appeasement mindset will never work with Islamists and will be interpreted as a sign of weakness which will only embolden the enemy. Not too long ago, Israel evacuated Gaza and gave the Palestinians their wish, made it Jew free. It forcibly removed it's own citizens from the land it had conquered in a defensive war. You would expect some appreciation and gratitute for this step, and some good will in return from the Palestinians. But as expected and predicted, the Palestinians proved once again, that they were and will never be interested in peace with Israel. The evacuation of Gaza also proved that it is not land alone that will appease the Palestinians. It became clear to Israel and the world, through subsequent actions of the Palestinians in Gaza (rocket shootings, terrorism, the usual savagery, etc., ALL TOTALLY UNPROVOKED) that it is the destruction of Israel and murder of Jews that will only satisfy them. And the only land that will satisfy the Palestinians will be the entire land that the state of Israel sits on.

I don't see what the problem really is here. The Palestinian Hamas leaders keep telling the Muslim world in Arabic that they will never accept Israel's right to exist, never honor any agreement until the entire "Zionist Entity" is destoyed and instead an Islamist Kalifate of Palestine replaces it. Their charter also clearly calls for the destruction of Israel and massacre of Jews (it is important to note that Hamas wants all Jews, Israeli or not, dead). And quite clearly, they are following their charter and ideology to the T. Yet somehow, there are morons like you, that keep telling us non of this matters much, Israel is to ignore all of this and trust these animals as honorable and peaceful people, and reward the Hamas savages with even more land, that isn't there's to begin with. Only a person on drugs or totally delusional would this way. Either way, you're dreaming. With every day that passes by, there will be less land to talk about. Time is against the Palestinian side. When Iran and Syria collapse, so will the financing and sponsorship of Palestinian terror. Their hand is weakening by the minute.

Well I do have to agree with this, Hamas wants all of Israel, not just Gaza.

Not too long ago, Israel evacuated Gaza and gave the Palestinians their wish, made it Jew free.

Of course that is not true.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5BDwEW6uw]Laila El-Haddad, Journalist, Author, Gaza Mom-The Autograph-09-21-2011 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Roudy]

Israel is not bulldozing crops of fields or an entire street in retaliation for terrorism..

Of course it has - on literally hundreds - if not thousands - of occasions!!

Honestly - how can you not know this stuff, and still be too lazy to check?

You can find information on this in dozens of authoritive books, and on hundreds of websites. There is a very fine line between making mistakes because you have not seen the facts, and being deliberately ignorant. I did suggest a book by an Israeli author earlier which provides immense detail - presumably you chose not to read it.

Here is a piece of video - at about 1 minute in, you can see troops destroying crops by hand.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1to70X0FNlo]Israeli Police Invade, Destroy vegetable crops and Cut off water supply - YouTube[/ame]

That didn't look like collective punishment to me. THe video is a piece of propoganda and awful journalism. It could be that the specific lot in question was occupied illegally, as in without a permit, or it could be that a court found the owner of said lot to be guilty of certain violations and or crimes. The other lots remained untouched if you noticed. You are not a very good liar.

 

[Roudy]

Roudy -

Here is another story about Christian Nuns who are being cut off from their crops and livelihood.

Again, this is collective punishment, and is directed against innocent people.

BBC News - Bethlehem nuns in West Bank barrier battle

After all the overwhelming evidence of Christian Organizations reporting on how Christians being persecuted and murdered, and their ethnic cleansing by Muslims in Gaza and West Bank, you post a crap video making the Israelis look like the oppressors? Remove your biased head from your ass.

 

[Roudy]

But you are missing the whole point of those charity organizations that do "good" initially, deviously gaining people's trust, it is to take control of the people and their welfare, before they impose their will and ideology upon them by force.

Honestly, what utter, childish nonsense!! Why do you post guesses when you don't have a clue?

Both Hamas and Hezbollah provide services to citizens who live within their areas of operation, because both are de facto governments in those areas. They also provided services as quasi-NGOs prior to forming de facto governments.

Hezbollah have become hugely and genuinely popular in Southern Lebanon because in many villages are are the only authority which seem to make any effort to help people - why not go and see for yourself?

Actually it seems you have no clue and are totally ignorant. Hamas and Hezbollah receive their funding entirely from those that are enemies of Israel. They have used the same playbook to penetrate each society and then take over. This money and arms, etc comes with STRINGS ATTACHED, the strings being no peace with Israel ever, continuous state of war and acts of terror until the entire state of Israel is destroyed, and implementation of strict barbaric Islamc laws and society. and that is exactly what Hamas and Hezbollah are. They are a bunch of Islamic mafia thugs, who's only purpose is to continue the state of war in order to continue getting more money for it. There will never be peace with Israel as long as these organizations and their funding from those that want Israel destroyed continues.

 

[Saigon]

That didn't look like collective punishment to me.

Then why no do some research?

Honestly, dude - it is not my fault you are not up to speed on this.

I have suggested books for you, and I am happy to suggest more - but I think we both know you won't read them.

 

[Saigon]

After all the overwhelming evidence of Christian Organizations reporting on how Christians being persecuted and murdered, and their ethnic cleansing by Muslims in Gaza and West Bank, you post a crap video making the Israelis look like the oppressors? Remove your biased head from your ass.

Perhaps try reading the story before commenting.

 

[Hossfly]

Israel is not bulldozing crops of fields or an entire street in retaliation for terrorism..

Of course it has - on literally hundreds - if not thousands - of occasions!!

Honestly - how can you not know this stuff, and still be too lazy to check?

You can find information on this in dozens of authoritive books, and on hundreds of websites. There is a very fine line between making mistakes because you have not seen the facts, and being deliberately ignorant. I did suggest a book by an Israeli author earlier which provides immense detail - presumably you chose not to read it.

Here is a piece of video - at about 1 minute in, you can see troops destroying crops by hand.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1to70X0FNlo]Israeli Police Invade, Destroy vegetable crops and Cut off water supply - YouTube[/ame]

That didn't look like collective punishment to me. THe video is a piece of propoganda and awful journalism. It could be that the specific lot in question was occupied illegally, as in without a permit, or it could be that a court found the owner of said lot to be guilty of certain violations and or crimes. The other lots remained untouched if you noticed. You are not a very good liar.

Poor quality cell phone videos taken by biased do-gooders are not good journalism IMO. I prefer accredited reporters who interview both sides to get a reasonable story. These bulldozer dodgers jump to conclusions without knowing the facts. Only the Jew haters take these videos as gospel.

 

[High_Gravity]

But you are missing the whole point of those charity organizations that do "good" initially, deviously gaining people's trust, it is to take control of the people and their welfare, before they impose their will and ideology upon them by force.

Honestly, what utter, childish nonsense!! Why do you post guesses when you don't have a clue?

Both Hamas and Hezbollah provide services to citizens who live within their areas of operation, because both are de facto governments in those areas. They also provided services as quasi-NGOs prior to forming de facto governments.

Hezbollah have become hugely and genuinely popular in Southern Lebanon because in many villages are are the only authority which seem to make any effort to help people - why not go and see for yourself?

Actually it seems you have no clue and are totally ignorant. Hamas and Hezbollah receive their funding entirely from those that are enemies of Israel. Rey have used the same playbook to penetrate each society and then take over. This money and arms, etc comes with STRINGS ATTACHED, the strings being no peace with Israel ever, continuous state of war and acts of terror until the entire state of Israel is destroyed, and implementation of strict barbaric Islamc laws and society. and that is exactly what Hamas and Hezbollah are. They are a bunch of Islamic mafia thugs, who's only purpose is to continue the state of war in order to continue getting money for it. There will never be peace with Israel as long as these organizations and their funding from those that want Israel destroyed continues.

Hamas and Hezbollah also recieve funding from the US although it is indirect, you know they get their hands on some of that cash we give the Palestinians and the Lebanese government.

 

[Roudy]

Terrorists attack civilians.


That Israeli terrorist name calling thing is just propaganda.

I don't agree with that - Hamas have attacked civilians on numerous occasions.

I certainly consider both Hamas and Hezbollah to be terrorist organisations because they both have military wings which commit acts of terror - much like the IRA with the wider Sinn Fein organisation.

Both Hamas and Hezbollah also do a lot of good work with their own people (providing relief aid, housing, healthcare), but that does not mean they do not also commit acts of terror.

It is misleading to say that Hamas attacks civilians. "Civilian" is not the definitive term in international law. The term used is protected persons. Not all civilians are protected persons. Active militants, for example, are not protected persons even though they are civilians. Only when protected persons are targeted is it terrorism.

The nationals of an occupying power (in this case Israeli citizens) are also exempt from the protected persons class.

Muslim animals and their supporters seem to have a problem identifying who is and isn't a civilian. Maybe the real reason is they simply don't care. They go around slaughtering hundreds of their own in open markets, mosques, movie theatres, and hospitals in Iraq, Pakistan, Indonesia, Philippines, and Afghanistan. They blow up Churches all over the Muslim world. Maybe these victims aren't really civilians too?

Suddenly this breed of Islamic terrorists in Gaza is different than the other terrorists that are murdering people all over the world. This one is killing non-civilian civilians, also known as JEWS. Yup.

 

[Saigon]

Hossfly -

A book written by a Jewish Israeli academic citing several hundred instances of collective punishment was recommended earlier.

Here it is again for you:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Palestine-How-End-1948/dp/1583225382]Israel/Palestine: How to End the War of 1948: Tanya Reinhart: 9781583225387: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

You could also try doing a little research of your own, and get back to us when you are up to speed on the issue. You are under no obligation to understand this issue anymore than Roudy is, and if you'd prefer not to understand it, that is fine with me.

 

[Roudy]

Israel is not bulldozing crops of fields or an entire street in retaliation for terrorism..

Of course it has - on literally hundreds - if not thousands - of occasions!!

Honestly - how can you not know this stuff, and still be too lazy to check?

You can find information on this in dozens of authoritive books, and on hundreds of websites. There is a very fine line between making mistakes because you have not seen the facts, and being deliberately ignorant. I did suggest a book by an Israeli author earlier which provides immense detail - presumably you chose not to read it.

Here is a piece of video - at about 1 minute in, you can see troops destroying crops by hand.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1to70X0FNlo]Israeli Police Invade, Destroy vegetable crops and Cut off water supply - YouTube[/ame]

That is true. Israel has bulldozed about 30% of Gaza's agricultural land.

What's true to you is bullshit to most people.