What is the best healthcare solution?

[Mr Natural]

great, so when you're dying and a doctor / hospital has the ability to save you, but you cant afford to pay you get to die.

glad see the value of a human life subservient to the almighty dollar.

That doesn't happen.

What will happen is the hospital will get what they can from you and eat the rest and pass the difference on to everyone else in terms of higher costs.

read back and follow his line of logic. im not talking about the way the system currently works. i am talking about how he is a fpreacher of "personal responsibility". and that if you can not afford or get access to health care, its your own fault and you get to deal with it and the consequences.

Well, that you can chalk up to him being small-minded petty prick.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I think everyone agrees that whatever is the most opposite of what TM thinks is the best - is probably the best system.

 

[Anachronism]

great, so when you're dying and a doctor / hospital has the ability to save you, but you cant afford to pay you get to die.

Sky, you seem to be under the mistaken belief that quantity of life is more important than quality of life. I don't tend to share that belief. My living will lays out quite a few things I have no interest in living through. You and I have already discussed that I will not take any government health care money or aid. I'm not afraid to die. It's living that I find a lot less palatable most of the time.

glad see the value of a human life subservient to the almighty dollar.

It's got nothing to do with money. It's about ideology. It's about the idea that I should be responsible for my own well being, and you should not be required to pay for me. Likewise I shoule not be expected to pay for your needs. It's also about the understanding that regardless of what a legislature or judiciary may suggest, health care is NOT a right. It never has been.

read back and follow his line of logic. im not talking about the way the system currently works. i am talking about how he is a fpreacher of "personal responsibility". and that if you can not afford or get access to health care, its your own fault and you get to deal with it and the consequences.

Yeah, that's a pretty good summation of my feelings on the topic.

 

[Skynet]

great, so when you're dying and a doctor / hospital has the ability to save you, but you cant afford to pay you get to die.

Sky, you seem to be under the mistaken belief that quantity of life is more important than quality of life. I don't tend to share that belief. My living will lays out quite a few things I have no interest in living through. You and I have already discussed that I will not take any government health care money or aid. I'm not afraid to die. It's living that I find a lot less palatable most of the time.

i hope one day karma comes back to bite you in the ass when an administrator has to tell you that you need are not covered by a life saving procedure and are required to pay for the procedure up front to the tune of $250k or too bad so sad.

glad see the value of a human life subservient to the almighty dollar.

It's got nothing to do with money. It's about ideology. It's about the idea that I should be responsible for my own well being, and you should not be required to pay for me. Likewise I shoule not be expected to pay for your needs. It's also about the understanding that regardless of what a legislature or judiciary may suggest, health care is NOT a right. It never has been.

you already agreed that if someone can not afford to pay for health care they die as a result it is their own fault they couldnt pay. hence a human life is less important than money. your view could not be more clear. no one chooses to get cancer, or get hit by a car, or have a stroke. yet by your logic its your responsibility to see this coming and plan accordingly.

read back and follow his line of logic. im not talking about the way the system currently works. i am talking about how he is a fpreacher of "personal responsibility". and that if you can not afford or get access to health care, its your own fault and you get to deal with it and the consequences.

Yeah, that's a pretty good summation of my feelings on the topic.

 

[Anachronism]

i hope one day karma comes back to bite you in the ass when an administrator has to tell you that you need are not covered by a life saving procedure and are required to pay for the procedure up front to the tune of $250k or too bad so sad.

I already have my cancer cure, my paralysis cure, etc..... put aside. It's 230 grains of .45ACP Jacketed Hollowpoint. One round, with my initials etched into the brass of the casing. It's specially put aside already. That one pill, right up under the chin with a slight rearward cant of the muzzle fixes everything in a split second.

you already agreed that if someone can not afford to pay for health care they die as a result it is their own fault they couldnt pay. hence a human life is less important than money. your view could not be more clear. no one chooses to get cancer, or get hit by a car, or have a stroke. yet by your logic its your responsibility to see this coming and plan accordingly.

It is your responsibility to attempt to prepare for as many potentials as possible. I just explained my preparation above. It is my belief that should those problems come about that family, friends, and the community are where one should turn for assistance, not to the Government (State, Local, or Federal). That's why I won't take Government aid. No welfare. No unemployment. No Social Security. No Medicare. NOTHING. I would rather die.

You also have to remember that my spiritual beliefs center around the idea of FATE more than free choice when it comes to a lot of these things.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

It is your responsibility to attempt to prepare for as many potentials as possible. I just explained my preparation above.

Considering that the median income for this country is under 50K, how on earth do you expect people to stash hundreds of thousands aside for a surprise cancer diagnosis, broken hip, stroke etc... - let alone retire without any other income? When my grandmother retired in the 80's after working for 50 years, she had a pension that paid $108 a month and got about $600 from SS. Luckily, her house was paid for (which we had to sell to get her into a nursing home, as she developed ALS and Alzheimers and my mother was physically unable to care for her anymore). Her nursing home bill was $4,000 a month.

Just HOW do you expect the average American who is struggling - hell 40% of Americans hold NO WEALTH AT ALL - to do this? Please enlighten me.

 

[Skynet]

It is your responsibility to attempt to prepare for as many potentials as possible. I just explained my preparation above.

Considering that the median income for this country is under 50K, how on earth do you expect people to stash hundreds of thousands aside for a surprise cancer diagnosis, broken hip, stroke etc... - let alone retire without any other income? When my grandmother retired in the 80's after working for 50 years, she had a pension that paid $108 a month and got about $600 from SS. Luckily, her house was paid for (which we had to sell to get her into a nursing home, as she developed ALS and Alzheimers and my mother was physically unable to care for her anymore). Her nursing home bill was $4,000 a month.

Just HOW do you expect the average American who is struggling - hell 40% of Americans hold NO WEALTH AT ALL - to do this? Please enlighten me.

his answer will be somewhere along the lines of, oh well too bad that life.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

We must have a public option. I propose a not-for-profit co-op that anyone that is a US citizen can join. I figure you could pay in @ $20-$50 per month to get basic care. If you wanted more coverage, and can afford it, you can buy a private policy. Think if we had 40 million Americans in the pool paying $50 a month, I think it would work beautifully - as it would take away the need for workplace insurance and would cost a lot less (for you AND your company). The best part is that you would never again have to send a dime to a parasitic private insurer if you didn't want to. I think Germany has something along these lines and it seems to work really well.

 

[kwc57]

how is personal responsibility possible if you are denied access to care by an insurance provider or heath care provider?

Personal Responsibility has nothing to do with health insurance. It's a matter of you going out and paying for things yourself, or at least paying for your own insurance, which you will negotiate the costs and coverages of.

my question is completely valid, what if you can not get insurance for any price. i.e being denied coverage for a pre-existing condition, or being too old, or too poor?

Why in the hell would they cover a pre-existing condition. Insurance is a business, not a charity. Why would they want to sell you a policy that cost's say $100 a month and have to pay out $1,000 a month on your medical costs? Go wreck your car and then try to buy car insurance and turn in a claim for the damage and see what happens.

 

[Skynet]

Personal Responsibility has nothing to do with health insurance. It's a matter of you going out and paying for things yourself, or at least paying for your own insurance, which you will negotiate the costs and coverages of.

my question is completely valid, what if you can not get insurance for any price. i.e being denied coverage for a pre-existing condition, or being too old, or too poor?

Why in the hell would they cover a pre-existing condition. Insurance is a business, not a charity. Why would they want to sell you a policy that cost's say $100 a month and have to pay out $1,000 a month on your medical costs? Go wreck your car and then try to buy car insurance and turn in a claim for the damage and see what happens.

because of things like this

When Getting Beaten By Your Husband Is A Pre-Existing Condition

 

[Mr. Peepers]

Why in the hell would they cover a pre-existing condition. Insurance is a business, not a charity. Why would they want to sell you a policy that cost's say $100 a month and have to pay out $1,000 a month on your medical costs? Go wreck your car and then try to buy car insurance and turn in a claim for the damage and see what happens.

So what would happen to these people? Line them up and shoot them, or watch them die a slow, agonizing death? The real question is, do you want to live in an enlightened society or would you rather go live in Somalia?

 

[Anachronism]

Considering that the median income for this country is under 50K, how on earth do you expect people to stash hundreds of thousands aside for a surprise cancer diagnosis, broken hip, stroke etc... - let alone retire without any other income? When my grandmother retired in the 80's after working for 50 years, she had a pension that paid $108 a month and got about $600 from SS. Luckily, her house was paid for (which we had to sell to get her into a nursing home, as she developed ALS and Alzheimers and my mother was physically unable to care for her anymore). Her nursing home bill was $4,000 a month.

Just HOW do you expect the average American who is struggling - hell 40% of Americans hold NO WEALTH AT ALL - to do this? Please enlighten me.

I expect people to do what people have done for thousands of years.... DIE, and rid the world of the surpluss population which serves no useful purpose. Just as that Cancer diagnosis would only cost me about $0.12 to deal with, as I explained above. The whole idea that ANYONE should be propped up by the public dole is absolutely disgusting in my mind. Whether they're 12 weeks old, 12 years old, 30, 50, 80, etc....

his answer will be somewhere along the lines of, oh well too bad that life.

Pretty much.

We must have a public option. I propose a not-for-profit co-op that anyone that is a US citizen can join. I figure you could pay in @ $20-$50 per month to get basic care. If you wanted more coverage, and can afford it, you can buy a private policy. Think if we had 40 million Americans in the pool paying $50 a month, I think it would work beautifully - as it would take away the need for workplace insurance and would cost a lot less (for you AND your company). The best part is that you would never again have to send a dime to a parasitic private insurer if you didn't want to. I think Germany has something along these lines and it seems to work really well.

So long as anyone who wants to can OPT-OUT and have NONE of their tax money ever used to supplement or fund that co-op, I could agree with it. I have no problem with people banding to gether to get a better rate on their service, just don't tell me I have to do it, or that you're going to use my tax money to do it.

 

[Polk]

If we could have been "allowed" to purchase Health Care Insurance across state lines like I was able to purchase car insurance.I was able to save a bunch of money this way.

Sorry I can't provide a link so I guess that makes me a liar......

You'd save a lot of money under that system. You'd also have useless insurance.

 

[Polk]

my question is completely valid, what if you can not get insurance for any price. i.e being denied coverage for a pre-existing condition, or being too old, or too poor?

Then that's life. Sorry about your bad luck. Try to find a doctor who will take CASH, and cut a deal with him. Otherwise; such is life.

I like this guy. At least he has the balls to admit he'd just kill people.

 

[Polk]

Personal Responsibility has nothing to do with health insurance. It's a matter of you going out and paying for things yourself, or at least paying for your own insurance, which you will negotiate the costs and coverages of.

my question is completely valid, what if you can not get insurance for any price. i.e being denied coverage for a pre-existing condition, or being too old, or too poor?

Why in the hell would they cover a pre-existing condition. Insurance is a business, not a charity. Why would they want to sell you a policy that cost's say $100 a month and have to pay out $1,000 a month on your medical costs? Go wreck your car and then try to buy car insurance and turn in a claim for the damage and see what happens.

Not really a relevant analogy.

 

[dblack]

The most important thing we need to do is get off the insurance treadmill. Contrary to popular belief, the problem with the health care market in the US isn't too little insurance coverage - it's too much. We should maintain a sane safety net for the most extreme cases and the rest of us should pay for as much of our own health care as possible.

The interesting thing is, without massive interference from the state, this is exactly what will happen. The standard low-deductible, group health policy is not a viable business model. The scheme has run it's course, driven inflation through the roof can no longer provide value for consumers. The insurance industry has read the writing on the wall and their impending doom is why they've finally acquiesced to 'reform'.

Of course, it's not really reform, it's a bailout of their failing industry disguised as reform, and it will only prolong the problem. The sooner we come to terms with the fact that insurance isn't 'money for nothing' and that it only really makes sense as a hedge against unforeseen catastrophy, the sooner we can restore balance to the health care market.

So, the most important thing the state can do to help the cause is stop making it worse (first, do no harm). If than can manage that hurdle (which seems unlikely) they then need to remove all the tax and regulatory policies that have painted us into this corner in the first place.

None if this will happen of course. Too many people buy into the "doing nothing is not an option!" nonsense and our leaders won't be able to resist the opportunity to expand their power and enrich their friends.

In the end, if large majority simply insist that we socialize health care, it should be done properly, as localized as possible and under the control of local leaders - something like what do with public education. But that won't happen either because, in the eyes of our esteemed leaders, this has nothing to do with caring for real people. It's a corporatist power grab and we'll lose.

 

[Political Junky]

[

If we could have been "allowed" to purchase Health Care Insurance across state lines like I was able to purchase car insurance.I was able to save a bunch of money this way.

Sorry I can't provide a link so I guess that makes me a liar......

It's a favorite talking point from the GOP and no one else can provide a link either.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Why the US Needs a Single Payer Health System

by David U. Himmelstein, MD & Steffie Woolhandler, MD
Our pluralistic health care system is giving way to a system run by corporate oligopolies. A single payer reform provides the only realistic alternative.

Why the US Needs a Single Payer Health System | Physicians for a National Health Program

great, so when you're dying and a doctor / hospital has the ability to save you, but you cant afford to pay you get to die.

glad see the value of a human life subservient to the almighty dollar.

Social Darwinism is alive and well.

I expect people to do what people have done for thousands of years.... DIE, and rid the world of the surpluss population which serves no useful purpose.

How Dickensian. And what do you propose as to the mechanics of this ‘system’? Will taxpayers be compelled to at least build hospices for the dying or will we be stepping over bodies in the street?

 

[initforme]

Insurance rates and medical costs are basically going to be unaffordable soon to most of the middle class.
I say get your medical care and pay a very small payment on it per month. SO if you owe $25,000 for a hospital visit, pay $35 a month and if you dont get it paid off before you pass on then so be it. Pay what you can, when you can. But dont go broke or struggle because of health care costs. To heck with that.

 

[Gadawg73]

As a small business man for 30 years I can inform everyone anywhere that the insurance model is not an effective way to treat health. It is an excellent way to treat disease care as 60% of ALL health care dollars treat disease care-4% of the population.
Don't you people research anything? Health care, under this system so many want to keep, now costs us 18% of GDP and is growing at 7 times the inflation rate yearly. It was 7% in 1968.
At this rate it will be 33% in 25 years. Wake up. This system is UNSUSTAINABLE as it stands.
Group health insurance plans have ruined health care in America as that model, where a third party and not the consumer pays the bill, utilizes little or NO free market forces in their pricing.
Part of the Obama plan, the exchanges, makes sense but the insurance market fights it because it would force them to compete.
Believe me, as an owner of 3 corporations, this system is fucked and it has little or nothing to do with government. It has to do with blank check group health insurance plans that do not use supply and demand as their pricing.
If we do not change this system yesterday we will be a third world country soon.