What is happening in Kazakhstan?

[rupol2000]

For comparison, Belarus produces less than 40 billion kWh per year, Ukraine up to 200 billion. At the same time, about 100% of the electricity industry in Belarus runs on Russian fuel, and the Ukrainian electricity industry is independent.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Guys, can we try to keep this discussion focused on Kazakhstan issues?

 

[Siberian]

Guys, can we try to keep this discussion focused on Kazakhstan issues?

isn't it over for a while?
what is left to be said?

 

[Donald H]

Donald H — You still haven’t answered me:

“I am also an opponent of Russian and Chinese authoritarianism. Are you?”

I think you might be better than that Tom. This is the sort of trash talk one would expect from politichicy.

It's a loaded question Tom, because it can't be answered without examples of what an American would be calling 'authoritarianism.

So I can answer in the generic sense with a qualified yes, as it applies to any country's government.

As the question applies to China for instance, you could be asking if I'm opposed to how China has had to deal with the Uighur Islamic terrorists. Or as it may apply to Russia, it could be referring to how Russia is forced to deal with US/Nato/Ukraine infringement on Russia's borders

As to how it applies to America, you would have to choose one of your wars for example, and then I would be able to answer you on there being any authoritarian component to discuss.

You've done some homework on the Kazakhstan situation but have you referenced any sites that make the accusation that Americans are involved in promoting violence. Your opening narrative didn't seem to include any possible explanations that wouldn't suit the US/Nato agenda. That's the reason I spoke up about it.


I wouldn't expect that any Americans will be caught and arrested for inciting violence. That's the sort of activity that's carried out covertly behind the scenes with prisoner swaps.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Most people are still seeing things only from a Western point of view centering on malevolent Russian intentions, or from the mirror image view of naive “anti-imperialists” and Russian nationalists that everything is caused by the CIA.

This latter perspective is often — crudely — shared by Trump fanatics who love Putin and want to blame everything on “Biden’s CIA,” which they absurdly accuse, like Biden, of working for XiJinping, George Soros … or whatever.

Here is an intelligent article by an experienced British ex-Ambassador rejecting these simple-minded perspectives:
What Kazakhstan Isn't - Craig Murray

And here is an interesting article from Aljazeera on the role of clan networks & nepotism. It also implies that this vicious rivalry will continue in the halls of power:

“It all looks like The Game of Thrones.”
Can centuries-old clan rivalry explain the crisis in Kazakhstan?

 

[Donald H]

Russian troops will leave Kazakhstan within days. And I doubt Russian influence grew there except in setting a precedent of direct involvement.

But newly appointed information minister of Kazakhstan is an open Russophobe, as well I presume Tokaev will have to appease Kazakh nationalists on account of Russians...

So, despite Russian involvement and suppression of mass disorder I would say the provocation has partially reached its goal.

I would suggest that Russia will withdraw the troops in the same way America withdraws from a country. Not ever entirely, but perhaps sold to the media as such.

I don't get your remark on provocation partially reaching it's goal? Whose provocation?

 

[Donald H]

Most people are still seeing things only from a Western point of view centering on malevolent Russian intentions, or from the mirror image view of naive “anti-imperialists” and Russian nationalists that everything is caused by the CIA.

This latter perspective is often — crudely — shared by Trump fanatics who love Putin and want to blame everything on “Biden’s CIA,” which they absurdly accuse, like Biden, of working for XiJinping, George Soros … or whatever.

Here is an intelligent article rejecting these simple-minded perspectives:
What Kazakhstan Isn't - Craig Murray

And here is an interesting article from Aljazeera on the role of clan networks & nepotism. It also implies that this vicious rivalry will continue in the halls of power:

“It all looks like The Game of Thrones.”
Can centuries-old clan rivalry explain the crisis in Kazakhstan?

Craig Murray's talking points: LPG subsidies disappearing and causing protests on the streets. Let's accept that as being true, and then suggest that outside influence comes in to promote unrest. It's an explanation that works for any situation of US/Nato involvement on borders adjoining Russia. The only factor that changes is the LPG.

Then Craig Murray's second talking point is:

Kazakhstan is an authoritarian dictatorship with extreme divisions in wealth and power between the ruling class – often still the old Soviet nomenklatura and their families

That's a talking point that will always be used in similar situations but it is applicable to other than dictatorships. Although, a popular people's choice government can be accused to the same; even in a democracy. What is the applicable degree of 'income inequality' in Kazakhstan as compared to America?

The best answer I have for that question is on whether or not there has been a coup attempt in the country in question, and the outcome of the coup attempt.

Cuba, America, Kazakhstan, or Venezuela may serve as examples of unrest. And they all serve as examples of outside interference to some extent.

I didn't read past that because I assume our plates are full enough with that, and no window dressing is going to change anything.

 

[Donald H]

Guys, can we try to keep this discussion focused on Kazakhstan issues?

If that's what you desire Tom, you'll have to post worthwhile discussion threads in the CDZ. There is no moderator attempts to control elsewhere, and I assume that it's too far off track for them to even try. If not the CDZ then the best is to just ignore the spamming.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Same to the trolling “ The Sage of Main Street. “

By the way, some of the protesters were skilled oil workers. Many were evidently ordinary workers legitimately furious with a dictatorship that enriches corrupt millionaire politicians and ignores their fundamental interests. Why do you assume they were all just “primitive and unproductive Muslim savages”?

Boratphilia

I'd rather be a troll than a trollop slutting up to our Globalist race-treason regime.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Westinghouse got the contract to sell Ukraine fuel rods for the power plants back in '19 I think...it's a 5 year contract.

Ukraine's power plants and power grid do need repairs as they all do...and with the quarantines and supply chain interruptions I'm sure that everything is in rough shape.

Nuclear power plants don't just blow up. They are designed to shut down unless everything is in perfect order.

Chernobyl happened because safeties were bypassed to run some worthless experiments...and an accident did happen.

They aren't experimenting anymore.

I'm not exactly a fan of nuclear power because of the brown sites they create. But since they are running... keep them running. Yes they will be due for a major overhaul soon. But not for another few years. (After the Westinghouse contract)

And Westinghouse is a major multi-national corporation...they provide electricity generation services to a LOT of countries... Including France where the spent fuel rods go to get reprocessed.

Isolationism is not a good idea...ever. Just ask Russia who acts like they are part of the world but really isn't. They are increasingly isolating themselves from the rest of the world. PRC went bankrupt because of it...now that they have joined in they need some lessons in how to behave appropriately.

Russia is the last holdout. They need the world but they don't want the world. Apparently they would rather be the king of a trash dump than a lord of a fine house.

Integrity and openness raises ALL Ships...and Russia doesn't have much of either.

As Our Decadentocracy Falls off Its Tower, It Grabs for a Goat's Horns on Its Way Down

Like they did with the Jews, the West's ruling class is trying to make Russia a scapegoat for their own failed rule. Choosing the New Cold War option for his foreign-policy agenda, Bush appointed a narrow-minded Russian expert, who knew nothing about Islamic jihad, as his National Security Advisor. He occupied Afghanistan as an outpost against Russia and its allies, using the War on Terror as an opportunity to re-start the Cold War with troops ready and close.

Strangling and minimizing a non-existent Russian threat has been the goal of American policy ever since Bush's Daddy's regime. A gullible Yeltsin, not understanding that the exact opposite of Communism is also a disaster, listened to American-led World Bank advisors and instituted its unbridled laissez-faire fantasies, which immediately turned Russia's promising economy into a kleptocracy. The advice from our theorizing clowns was that the market would automatically get rid of any corrupt corporate bosses.

 

[JohnDB]

As Our Decadentocracy Falls off Its Tower, It Grabs for a Goat's Horns on Its Way Down

Like they did with the Jews, the West's ruling class is trying to make Russia a scapegoat for their own failed rule. Choosing the New Cold War option for his foreign-policy agenda, Bush appointed a narrow-minded Russian expert, who knew nothing about Islamic jihad, as his National Security Advisor. He occupied Afghanistan as an outpost against Russia and its allies, using the War on Terror as an opportunity to re-start the Cold War with troops ready and close.

Strangling and minimizing a non-existent Russian threat has been the goal of American policy ever since Bush's Daddy's regime. A gullible Yeltsin, not understanding that the exact opposite of Communism is also a disaster, listened to American-led World Bank advisors and instituted its unbridled laissez-faire fantasies, which immediately turned Russia's promising economy into a kleptocracy. The advice from our theorizing clowns was that the market would automatically get rid of any corrupt corporate bosses.

Everyone has been lining their pockets by the double handfuls...Biden through his son Hunter is no exception to that rule.
And when Trump told Ukraine that if they discovered grounds to prosecute Biden's son Hunter(they did for all of his co-workers) that America wouldn't hold it against them. And then the other political party in America used that conversation as grounds to put Trump on trial for misconduct. (He was giving them financial aide based on meeting certain criteria...but was basically saying that the criteria mattered and didn't have any other strings attached)

Yeah...it's been a real shit show. Too many people doing nothing but corruption and political games.

 

[ESay]

Guys, can we try to keep this discussion focused on Kazakhstan issues?

What can be discussed about that? It seems the main reason of this insurrection was a struggle between various groups of Kazakh elite. Some people wanted Nazarbaev and his clan to give their share of power and wealth to others. There will be some reshaping inside these elites and their influence.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Boratphilia

I'd rather be a troll than a trollop …

You needn’t choose, Borat ….

 

[Siberian]

If that's what you desire Tom, you'll have to post worthwhile discussion threads in the CDZ. There is no moderator attempts to control elsewhere, and I assume that it's too far off track for them to even try. If not the CDZ then the best is to just ignore the spamming.

sorry, guys, but your flirting with each other via demonstrating your erudition may not be as much exciting for the rest of posters, because your most brilliant discoveries are rather a common knowledge for former Soviet citizens.

personally for me, you could really attract my attention or involve in discussion if you make a good forecast, but not just summarize other articles post-factum.

but I don't mind if you go on with Kazakhstan related spam while we discuss the only topic which matters now - Ukraine and its future collapse

p. s. Kazakhstan revolution ends, Russian troops are withrawing, now things go under the carpet for a while and some time is needed to come back to this topic again.

 

[Siberian]

I would suggest that Russia will withdraw the troops in the same way America withdraws from a country. Not ever entirely, but perhaps sold to the media as such.

I don't get your remark on provocation partially reaching it's goal? Whose provocation?

Russisn troops are being withdrawn, all 3000 of them (including troops from other ОДКБ countries). There will be zero military presence soon. And what for to be there militarily, could you propose a reason?

Whoever was involved in events reached their goals at leastcpartially.

Actually, it is a strange situation in which everybody wins. Maybe just some - right now, some - in longer perspective. No losers, except Nazarbaev personally, but even his clan seems not to be overthrown, his nephew stays in power, according to last news. Which are still to be confirmed.
As I said, dust must settle first to come back to this topic anew.

 

[Siberian]

This is an economically illiterate tendentious judgment. All countries import, the question is how much. The balance there is shifted towards exports.

У кого Украина покупает электроэнергию и кому продает: перечень стран — Finance.ua

За 2021 год Украина импортировала до 1 миллиарда киловатт в час,...

news.finance.ua

Yes, I heard it, Ukraine exported electricity in summer burning winter storage of coal and now is left with unsufficient gas and coal stocks...

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

You are a chronic and irrepressible troll, Siberian!

As a Russian you might have something useful to add, and sometimes do, but you really prefer trolling, having gotten so used to it dealing with dumb Americans here and on other similar boards.

I agree this is not a very good place for a serious discussion. I usually reserve my best polemics for cynics and educated people like yourself, whatever their politics. You could say I “flirt” with them, but that’s really just silly. A more cynical view is that I’m entertaining only myself by revealing the silly errors of others.

I’d like to believe that naive ideologues like Donald H — depending on his age and personality — can actually still learn how to think. Others can take my comments any way they want.

I mostly just try to be fair and uncover the unvarnished (often ugly) truth … about all sides.

 

[Donald H]

You are a chronic and irrepressible troll, Siberian!

As a Russian you might have something useful to add, and sometimes do, but you really prefer trolling, having gotten so used to it dealing with dumb Americans here and on other similar boards.

I agree this is not a very good place for a serious discussion. I usually reserve my best polemics for cynics and educated people like yourself, whatever their politics. You could say I “flirt” with them, but that’s really just silly. A more cynical view is that I’m entertaining only myself by revealing the silly errors of others.

I’d like to believe that naive ideologues like Donald H — depending on his age and personality — can actually still learn how to think. Others can take my comments anyway they want.

I mostly just try to be fair and uncover the unvarnished (often ugly) truth … about all sides.

Sorry Tom but I've lost all confidence in you after that backhanded insult.

 

[Donald H]

Russisn troops are being withdrawn, all 3000 of them (including troops from other ОДКБ countries). There will be zero military presence soon. And what for to be there militarily, could you propose a reason?

Whoever was involved in events reached their goals at leastcpartially.

Actually, it is a strange situation in which everybody wins. Maybe just some - right now, some - in longer perspective. No losers, except Nazarbaev personally, but even his clan seems not to be overthrown, his nephew stays in power, according to last news. Which are still to be confirmed.
As I said, dust must settle first to come back to this topic anew.

Being there with a military presence ensures that Russia isn't upstaged by the US. Think of Syria, where US plans of conquest have been rendered impossible by the situation in which Russia is an invited guest.
Same shit all over the ME and elsewhere.

 

[Decus]

Several factors drove protestors into the streets in Kazakhstan:

Kazakhs are fed-up with corruption. Fed-up with the fact that elites enjoy the wealth of the country while the average person is left to deal with rising fuel and food prices and face limited opportunities.

Keep in mind that present day Kazakh president Tokayev was chosen by Nursultan Nazarbayev because he was a trusted ally.

Kazakh ex-president to hand over ruling party leadership to successor

Kazakhstan's former president, Nursultan Nazarbayev, will hand over his role as the leader of the ruling Nur Otan party to President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev, Nazarbayev's spokesman said on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

Initially Kazakhs were happy that Nursultan Nazarbayev agreed to step down as president and thought that the country might improve once he was gone. But Nursultan Nazarbayev didn't leave, he took the role as head of Kazakhstan's Security Council (a position arguably more powerful than president).

Kazakh leader removes veteran ex-president from key security post

Kazakhstan's President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev said on Wednesday he had taken over as head of the powerful Security Council from veteran former leader Nursultan Nazarbayev and promised to respond with "maximum toughness" to fuel price protests.

www.reuters.com

He and his family are reported to have stolen billions from the country.

"Some of the protesters’ complaints are fully justified. The Kazakh legislature is largely a fig leaf for what is in essence a dictatorship. Corruption is endemic. The wealth of former president Nursultan Nazarbayev’s family, the ex-Soviet stooge who ruled Kazakhstan for twenty-nine years until 2021, is likely to be in the tens of billions."

What’s happening in Kazakhstan?

The wealth of Nursultan Nazarbayev’s family, the ex-Soviet stooge who ruled Kazakhstan until 2021, is likely to be in the tens of billions

spectatorworld.com

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