What I'd like to see Re: Ukraine/Russia

[Fort Fun Indiana]

And then they should just join NATO anyway.

I mean that. Why not? Does anyone REALLY believe Russia won't just invade again, if Ukraine has no security guarantees?

Does anyone BUT people steeped in Russian propaganda ACTUALLY believe NATO represents an offensive threat against Russia?

I am certain Putin, himself, does not believe that. But Putin did not count on the immediate and strong western coalition that came to the aid of Ukraine.

Whoops. He threw gasoline on the fire. NATO is much bigger, now.

 

[Mac-7]

I hate when America does stupid shit.

What do we have to show for the Iraq War? We lost 5000 people, 25,000 more injured for life, and Iraq is now effectively an Iranian Client state. Our Rep in that part of the world is now lower than Camel Dung.

Iraq has zero to do with current history

Dont you want to excoriate America for slavery or the Indian Wars?

Or tell us about the peaceful intentions of communist china?

Now’s your chance

 

[Zavulon]

Iraq has zero to do with current history

It has. Actually, the current history is direct and straight consequence of destruction of post-WWII world order, i.e. American illegal and unprovoked aggressions against Serbia in 1999 and Iraq in 2003. By violation of post WWII order, and with attempt to build Pax Americana you just turned world in pre-WWIII posture. And here we now, going directly in WWIII.

 

[Zavulon]

I mean that. Why not? Does anyone REALLY believe Russia won't just invade again, if Ukraine has no security guarantees?

Russia will invade (directly or indirectly) anyway, with or without US "security guarantees", for Russia see expansion of NATO as vital threat. But with US security guarantees (i.e. an obligation to start a war against Russia at any moment choosen by Kievan regime) it will just drag America in the war, and, likely, the war will be started by Russian attack against the USA.

Does anyone BUT people steeped in Russian propaganda ACTUALLY believe NATO represents an offensive threat against Russia?

Yep. Actually, the EU declared that their official goal is "decolonisation of Russia" (i.e. genocide of Russian people).
And no, it doesn't matter what things belive you. What actually matters is what believe Russians.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Russia will invade (directly or indirectly) anyway, with or without US "security guarantees".

Right, it's not the US that Putin fears, given the little maniac's offensive nuclear threats. The US would leave 10 Ukraines to burn, before confronting the insane little Russian maniac (who will drop dead soon enough) in a way that might lead the little maniac to launch nukes.

You have that right, but for all the wrong reasons, naturally.

What Putin fears is NOT having the whole of Ukraine, while he is alive, lest he be a stain of failure on the Russian mythology. And that's all. Any other reason for Russia continuing to prosecute this war is either a shallow load of crap or an outright lie.

 

[Zavulon]

Right, it's not the US that Putin fears, given the little maniac's offensive nuclear threats. The US would leave 10 Ukraines to burn, before confronting the insane little Russian maniac (who will drop dead soon enough) in a way that might lead the little maniac to launch nukes.

If you are right - all "US guarantees" are void, and Russia can easily win just by raising stakes. But if you are wrong, and nukes are on the table - Russia has more than enough reasons for preemptive attack against the USA itself. Like, you know, in "The House of Dynamite" (2025) movie.

You have that right, but for all the wrong reasons, naturally.

What Putin fears is NOT having the whole of Ukraine, while he is alive, lest he be a stain of failure on the Russian mythology. And that's all. Any other reason for Russia continuing to prosecute this war is either a shallow load of crap or an outright lie.

You know, by depicting Russians as the "horde of bloodthirsty goons, lead by an irrational dictator" (nothing can be more far from reality) you just destroy any probability of peace. You simply can't make peace with such creatures, both disgusting, dangerous and unpredictable. Say nothing about depicting Ukraine as something supervalued and Saint Graal for, at least, three civilisations. In realistic mindset Ukraine is just one of many countries and the main Russian (or US) motivation is self-preservation. The theory of games (we are rational and other players are rational) have been keeping peace for more than eighty years. It may keep it further if you guys follow it and don't spoil it with your ideological misbeliefs and racial prejudice.

 

[Zavulon]

Ukraine is not something supervalued by itself. It is vital for Russia to keep it democratic (in Russian understanding of the term - i.e. with equal rights for Russians, Russian-speakers and laymen of Ukrainian Orthodox Church), wealthy (meaning demilitarised) and non-threating (meaning not a member of a hostile alliance).

Everything else is discussable.

 

[Mac-7]

It has. Actually, the current history is direct and straight consequence of destruction of post-WWII world order, i.e. American illegal and unprovoked aggressions against Serbia in 1999 and Iraq in 2003. By violation of post WWII order, and with attempt to build Pax Americana you just turned world in pre-WWIII posture. And here we now, going directly in WWIII.

Actually its not as complicated as you make it seem

The US has some very nasty enemies and we cant just stick our heads in the sand and ignore them

 

[Mac1958]

And then they should just join NATO anyway.

That would be fine too, as long as we got out.

All we do now is create global chaos. Europe damn well knows we're no longer a dependable ally. We're the Mafia -- people will only deal with us when and because they HAVE to.

 

[JoeB131]

Iraq has zero to do with current history

Dont you want to excoriate America for slavery or the Indian Wars?

Or tell us about the peaceful intentions of communist china?

Now’s your chance

We really can't complain about Russia invading Ukraine (which used to be their territory) when in my lifetime, we've invaded or bombed Vietnam, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Panama, Grenada, Serbia, Libya, Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

As for China, they've only gone to war once in that time period, with Vietnam in 1979.

Now, if you are really so concerned about China, doesn't it seem foolish to drive Putin and Russia into a closer alliance with them? Before the Annexation of Crimea, Russia was in the G-8 and engaged with the West economically and politically.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Zavulon]

Actually its not as complicated as you make it seem

It is not complicated at all. There were certain rules, established after WW2 to prevent WW3. You had those rules violated and now we are going exactly into WW3.

The US has some very nasty enemies and we cant just stick our heads in the sand and ignore them

And you are just creating more enemies by your own actions.

 

[Mac-7]

It is not complicated at all. There were certain rules, established after WW2 to prevent WW3. You had those rules violated and now we are going exactly into WW3.


And you are just creating more enemies by your own actions.

No one who wasnt already there

 

[Mac-7]

We really can't complain about Russia invading Ukraine (which used to be their territory)

Used to be, but not anymore

Just because they were once under the thumb of russian czars and progressive lib dictators is not the reality now

Putin has no legal or moral claim to Ukraine now

And dont let your chinese puppet masters tell you otherwise

 

[Zavulon]

No one who wasnt already there

It depends. If you believe that all independent countries are your enemies and you should rule the world alone - then may be. But if you really consider the whole world as enemies and yourself as exclusive nation and higher race - I have bad news for you.

 

[Zavulon]

Used to be, but not anymore

It will be soon.

Just because they were once under the thumb of russian czars and progressive lib dictators is not the reality now

Reality is optional, isn't it? In fact, Ukraine is a part of Russia, because Ukrainians are Russians.

Putin has no legal or moral claim to Ukraine now

Of course we have. Collective self-defense is the most moral and legal thing in the world.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

All we do now is create global chaos.

Compared to... what or when?. We have enjoyed 80 years of a relative peace compared to just about at any point in the whole of human history. And that is in no small part due to the strength of the US and NATO.

Weakening NATO is a huge mistake. Allowing Putin to prosecute wars of aggression without resistance, using the threat of offensive nuclear attacks, would be a huge mistake.

 

[JoeB131]

Used to be, but not anymore

Just because they were once under the thumb of russian czars and progressive lib dictators is not the reality now

Putin has no legal or moral claim to Ukraine now

And dont let your chinese puppet masters tell you otherwise

Except the territories they are claiming are occuppied by Russians, not Ukrainians.

Let me give you a little history lesson. Historically, the Donbass has not been part of Ukraine. It was only added to the Ukrainian SSR in 1922. The Crimea was only added to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954.

So Russia (perhaps not Putin personally) does have a historic and moral claim to the Donbas and Crimea.

 

[Mac-7]

Except the territories they are claiming are occuppied by Russians, not Ukrainians.

Let me give you a little history lesson. Historically, the Donbass has not been part of Ukraine. It was only added to the Ukrainian SSR in 1922. The Crimea was only added to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954.

View attachment 1192699

So Russia (perhaps not Putin personally) does have a historic and moral claim to the Donbas and Crimea.

The problem with your map is that the boundaries for Ukraine were set by international agreement in the 1990’s after the breakup of the Soviet Union

 

[Ringo]

The problem with your map is that the boundaries for Ukraine were set by international agreement in the 1990’s after the breakup of the Soviet Union

Ah, you respect the borders of the 1990s so much. Well, let's divide Germany and unite the Czech Republic and Slovakia, according to 1990. And don't forget about Yugoslavia either. I won't even mention the USSR.