What I'd like to see Re: Ukraine/Russia

[Zavulon]

Doubt anyone is going to lose enough nukes to matter. Nuke Moab.....it doesn't matter. They would have no capacity to replace most anything

It depends. If they win the war, they'll have resources of the whole world for alleviation of the consequences of war.

 

[Manonthestreet]

It depends. If they win the war, they'll have resources of the whole world for alleviation of the consequences of war.

There is no winners in a full on nuke exchange. it would take decades to recover.

 

[Zavulon]

There is no winners in a full on nuke exchange.

Of course there are. While the price of victory might be terrible, the price of defeat might be even worse.

it would take decades to recover.

Not necessarily. It depends mostly on how the war is fought.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Of course there are. While the price of victory might be terrible, the price of defeat might be even worse.


Not necessarily. It depends mostly on how the war is fought.

You're a loon

 

[Correll]

Of course there are. While the price of victory might be terrible, the price of defeat might be even worse.


Not necessarily. It depends mostly on how the war is fought.

10,. 20 years from now, your muslim minorities will be rebelling to join their muslim neighbors. And you'll WANT them to go, so that they don't dominate your own governemnt as russian voters die off.

 

[Zavulon]

You're a loon

And you are not?

 

[Zavulon]

10,. 20 years from now, your muslim minorities will be rebelling to join their muslim neighbors.

May be. May be no. But if we establish reliable peace in Europe now, then we'll have open hands to work in Middle Asia in those years.

And you'll WANT them to go, so that they don't dominate your own governemnt as russian voters die off.

Man, I was born in Southern Kazakhstan and I don't see "Asphalt Kazakhs" (even formally Muslims) as "Non-Russians". Anyway, in the modern world both Christians and Muslims are mostly Atheists.

 

[Correll]

May be. May be no. But if we establish reliable peace in Europe now, then we'll have open hands to work in Middle Asia in those years.

Nope. You won't have the men you need to fight them. Your demographics are collapsing.

Man, I was born in Southern Kazakhstan and I don't see "Asphalt Kazakhs" (even formally Muslims) as "Non-Russians". Anyway, in the modern world both Christians and Muslims are mostly Atheists.

Irrelevant and you know it. They still hate you and will **** you up if given the chance.

 

[Manonthestreet]

And you are not?

I'm not the one braying for a stupid war

 

[Mac-7]

China is allied with Russia. And both are nuclear powers. You'll need much more nukes than you have now to:
a) with guarantee eliminate significant part of Russian and Chinese nukes by your first counter-force strike;
b) with guarantee eliminate significant part of Russian and Chinese industrial capabilities and mobilisation potential;
c) still keep enough of weapons to deter the rest of the world;
d) invade territory of Russia and China and eliminate leftovers.
e) still have enough of military and industrial potential to re-establish American leadership in post-WWIII environment.

Say nothing about building National ABD/ ATD and building Civil Defence with ability to intercept Russian and Chinese retaliation strike and alleviate consequences of the minor strikes.

I dont see a nuclear war but it comes we can hold our own

 

[Mac-7]

The fact is that without achieving those goals there can't be any kind of lasting peace in Ukraine and between Russia and NATO.

If there is discrimination of Russians, Russian-speakers, laymen of Ukrainian Orthodox Church - there can't be peace.

If there is significant Ukrainian Army - Ukraine won't have money and working hands to rebuild the country (and there will be no inner peace) and Russia will see it as a threat and Russians will try to eliminate this treat.

If there is NATO membership or any practical equivalent of it - Russia also see it as a threat and try to prevent or eliminate at early stages.

Russia will use any excuse to justify its aggression

 

[JoeB131]

The russian excuses for invading Ukraine are largely baseless

The fact is that russia is greedy for the good old days under the Soviet Union

Just like America is greedy for hte good old days of the 1950s....

It's not like they are invading a country on the other side of the planet looking for weapons that don't exist.

 

[JoeB131]

I dont see a nuclear war but it comes we can hold our own

There are no winners in a nuclear war, dummy

 

[Zavulon]

There are no winners in a nuclear war, dummy

Of course there are. Nuclear Deterrence Type II ("providing multistability" in modern language) is effective because it is believable, and it is believable because nuclear war is both survivable and winnable.

 

[Mac-7]

Just like America is greedy for hte good old days of the 1950s....

It's not like they are invading a country on the other side of the planet looking for weapons that don't exist.

Is there no limit to your hate for America?

China really hit the jackpot with you

 

[sparky]

NATO is a military construct

and the 'threat'

~S~

 

[JoeB131]

Is there no limit to your hate for America?

China really hit the jackpot with you

I hate when America does stupid shit.

What do we have to show for the Iraq War? We lost 5000 people, 25,000 more injured for life, and Iraq is now effectively an Iranian Client state. Our Rep in that part of the world is now lower than Camel Dung.

 

[sparky]

I hate when America does stupid shit.

one really never does get used to it Joe ~S~

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Ukraine and Europe know that Russia represents an imminent and existential threat, and they know that they (like every other country) can no longer trust or depend on the United States for, uh, anything. So here's what I'd like to see, in chronological order:

1. Ukraine finds a way to end the war that includes perhaps THE big issue, a guarantee they will not join NATO. Other details are up to them. It's their country.
2. Agreements are signed and the war ends.
3. Europe dissolves NATO, getting America out of the whole picture.
4. Europe establishes ETO, the European Treaty Organzation, and Ukraine joins it. Ukraine has not joined NATO, per the agreement.
5. Everyone gets on with their lives, and if Putin doesn't like it, tough shit.

Trump's push to end Ukraine war raises fears of 'ugly deal' for Europe

And then they should just join NATO anyway.

 

[JoeB131]

one really never does get used to it Joe ~S~

Sit down and shut up.