Zone1 What Do Gods Really Want and Why?

[Foxfyre]

Self-appointed spokespeople for the notoriously aloof various divinities all seem to indicate they crave human validation.

Why such coy seekers of adulation in the form of relentless rituals, songs, fancy garb, processions, edifices, shindigs, assorted gestures, etc., etc., etc.?

Why would any self-respecting deity (omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal) care?

The traditions and rituals of religion are satisfying to those Christians, Jews, others who participate in them. Does God (or gods) require those traditions and rituals. I don't think so--most are mostly human invention--but neither do I see them as without value. And I do not sense that God disapproves of them. Those seeking to worship God can and do utilize all the senses--visual, i.e. the colors in the albs, stoles and other vestments etc.; auditory in the chants, music, hymnology etc.; olfactory in the incense used in high church services; taste in the bread and wine used in the Eucharist, Mass, communion; and so forth. There is intellectual stimulation in the sermons and Bible readings and the prayers are important to reach out to God in praise, trust, faith.

All put together whether the simplest form of meeting, low church, high church, whatever, God's people are not to be solitary but to join together in worship, praise, learning, mutual encouragement and all believers who do so benefit from it when the gathering is for the purpose of being in the presence of God together.

And because all of God's people are different, that there are different styles of worship is also a good thing as different people respond in different ways. So you have the most traditional services conducted according to strict liturgies and process and free wheeling contemporary services and charismatic services that can widely vary from meeting to meeting.

And none of it focused on God is without value. That is why both the Old and New Testaments have much to say about meeting together to worship God, study and support each other.

 

[SweetSue92]

For "us", rather than for any gods?

Quite possibly.

God doesn't need anything. He is all-sufficient in Himself. So yes, it's not that HE needs the worship to be fulfilled. It's that worshipping Him is what's best for us.

You seem to be saying we worship God because we think it helps us too. Not always, in fact, not even a lot of the time. It's called a "Sacrifice" of praise because many times it's easier not to do it. We are prone to laziness

 

[schmidlap]

The traditions and rituals of religion are satisfying to those Christians, Jews, others who participate in them. Does God (or gods) require those traditions and rituals. I don't think so--most are mostly human invention--but neither do I see them as without value. And I do not sense that God disapproves of them. Those seeking to worship God can and do utilize all the senses--visual, i.e. the colors in the albs, stoles and other vestments etc.; auditory in the chants, music, hymnology etc.; olfactory in the incense used in high church services; taste in the bread and wine used in the Eucharist, Mass, communion; and so forth. There is intellectual stimulation in the sermons and Bible readings and the prayers are important to reach out to God in praise, trust, faith.

All put together whether the simplest form of meeting, low church, high church, whatever, God's people are not to be solitary but to join together in worship, praise, learning, mutual encouragement and all believers who do so benefit from it when the gathering is for the purpose of being in the presence of God together.

And because all of God's people are different, that there are different styles of worship is also a good thing as different people respond in different ways. So you have the most traditional services conducted according to strict liturgies and process and free wheeling contemporary services and charismatic services that can widely vary from meeting to meeting.

And none of it focused on God is without value. That is why both the Old and New Testaments have much to say about meeting together to worship God, study and support each other.

Given the ubiquitous nature of rituals and ceremonies of the various religions, I suspect that the adherents to them must assume that their gods like them. Of course, participating in groups that share religious preferences reinforces a participant's beliefs. If that works for someone, and does not harm others, that is what really matters.

 

[Hawkins]

God is building an eternity we call Heaven, where the angels and humans with live with God forever. The three parties will be in high satisfaction and happiness.
1) As the first side God is a completely sin-incompatible God, to Him living with sin is like standing in a pool of sh*t.
2) Freewill is granted to both angels and humans, with humans in a wider degree. Freewill in the end means one is given the ability to oppose God, and they will.
3) Angels, though with a lesser degree of freewill, have a much higher intelligence and ability as their very existence is for participating God's creation. Inevitably they possess an influence on humans (in Eden, Earth and Heaven).

That's what it is.
1) God detailed what will ruin His satisfaction and set up Law, followed by a Final Judgment to determine who can enter Heaven.
2) 2/3 angels by freewill will pass the Judgment of Law to enter Heaven. By the factor of freewill alone, 1/3 or less humans will be able to pass the same Judgment of Law, referred to as the "narrow gate".
3) However by the influence of the 1/3 fallen angels with higher intelligence and ability (crafty snake in Eden), 0 human can pass the Judgment of Law which allows 2/3 angels to pass. No man is saved this way. Men shall thus be destroyed by the flood to release God's pain (like living in a pool of sh*t).

Now with Jesus' self sacrifice at a certain point of humanity, humans can somehow "dodge" the Judgment of Law. Humans will be judged by covenants instead. Different scopes of humans are put under the different covenants and to be judged. By this newly established standard, 1/3 or less humans will pass the Judgment of Covenant to enter Heaven.

In effect, 1/3 or less humans are said to be captive by the effort of the devil. The Shepherd takes them back by His self-sacrifice.

Current status,
As promised to Noah, God is now bearing with our sin (living in a pool of sh*t) till the Final Judgment but not beyond.

 

[schmidlap]

God doesn't need anything. He is all-sufficient in Himself. So yes, it's not that HE needs the worship to be fulfilled. It's that worshipping Him is what's best for us.

You seem to be saying we worship God because we think it helps us too. Not always, in fact, not even a lot of the time. It's called a "Sacrifice" of praise because many times it's easier not to do it. We are prone to laziness

Religions seem to presume to know and proclaim what their god(s) of choice want, and a religion's adherents generally accept what they are told by those who run that religion. Is that "good for us"? I won't speculate. Humans are obviously as fallible concerning religion as everything else, but some seem to claim infallibility in the matter.

 

[Foxfyre]

Given the ubiquitous nature of rituals and ceremonies of the various religions, I suspect that the adherents to them must assume that their gods like them. Of course, participating in groups that share religious preferences reinforces a participant's beliefs. If that works for someone, and does not harm others, that is what really matters.

I suspect the adherents to various religious traditions, creeds, liturgy do so mostly because the adherents are encouraged, strengthened, feel closer to God by doing them or just enjoy doing them. I have been on many Church planning committees and whether God likes a particular tradition or policy rarely comes up in the discussions. It is mostly whether it helps the people in their devotion and worship of God and/or helps them to allow God to use them to love others.

I do think most Christians do sense when they think God would not like something though and try to avoid those things.

 

[Hawkins]

Religions seem to presume to know and proclaim what their god(s) of choice want, and a religion's adherents generally accept what they are told by those who run that religion. Is that "good for us"? I won't speculate. Humans are obviously as fallible concerning religion as everything else, but some seem to claim infallibility in the matter.

Not what you think.

If God shows up publicly, then no men are savable as men need to be saved by faith alone as specified by the current Covenant in place. If God doesn't show up at all, then no man can know the existence of God and His covenants. The only way which works is for God to show up in front of the chosen eyewitnesses then for them to write down the testimonies, then for the rest of humankind to believe with faith to be saved.

Ancient prophets are reckoned by Israel (God's chosen people, that's how the Jews function) through 1) prophecies and 2) miracles, as humans are incapable of doing both by themselves. God grants such abilities to the prophets for Israel to reckon with them at the end. The eyewitnesses are reckoned as "prophets" as they can foretell (an ability which humans lack).

 

[forkintheroad7]

And because all of God's people are different, that there are different styles of worship is also a good thing as different people respond in different ways. So you have the most traditional services conducted according to strict liturgies and process and free wheeling contemporary services and charismatic services that can widely vary from meeting to meeting.

This was a good read except that you say It is because all humans are different (true, we are, obviously) that there are different styles of worship (also true, BUT):

It was never in God's mind (that I know of) for there to be all these different ways of worshiping Him, certainly not when we are bickering over said differences ALL THE TIME.

We are, as a friend told me once "more alike than we are different"

And God knows that more than anyone of course. The Catholic Church kept some practices from the Jewish religion, things that were of value, and that the Jews were told by God to keep "in perpetuity" -- "perpetual ordinances." Everything in the Jewish faith was NOT obliterated by the Catholic Church, but everything from both Jewish tradition and Catholic Tradition WERE obliterated by Luther and all subsequent protestants.

I don't think God approves.. When He says something is to be perpetual, I think that's what He means.

 

[schmidlap]

I suspect the adherents to various religious traditions, creeds, liturgy do so mostly because the adherents are encouraged, strengthened, feel closer to God by doing them or just enjoy doing them. I have been on many Church planning committees and whether God likes a particular tradition or policy rarely comes up in the discussions. It is mostly whether it helps the people in their devotion and worship of God and/or helps them to allow God to use them to love others.

I do think most Christians do sense when they think God would not like something though and try to avoid those things.

I recognize that your observations based upon your personal perspective concerning one religion appears to be common to religious adherents in general, regardless of the various sects, creeds, and denominations deriving from disparate geographical factors and historical happenstances. Devotees see value in and derive comfort from their doing them or just enjoy doing them. Human societies seem to have always had their gods, often insisting upon exclusive legitimacy in their respective canons.

 

[Foxfyre]

This was a good read except that you say It is because all humans are different (true, we are, obviously) that there are different styles of worship (also true, BUT):

It was never in God's mind (that I know of) for there to be all these different ways of worshiping Him, certainly not when we are bickering over said differences ALL THE TIME.

We are, as a friend told me once "more alike than we are different"

And God knows that more than anyone of course. The Catholic Church kept some practices from the Jewish religion, things that were of value, and that the Jews were told by God to keep "in perpetuity" -- "perpetual ordinances." Everything in the Jewish faith was NOT obliterated by the Catholic Church, but everything from both Jewish tradition and Catholic Tradition WERE obliterated by Luther and all subsequent protestants.

I don't think God approves.. When He says something is to be perpetual, I think that's what He means.

I won't argue with your belief if that is what you are comfortable with. I think God likes us to be intellectually consistent so long as we are not doing harm to ourselves or others or setting a bad example that could lead others astray.

In my heart I don't think God is a God of routine rules and regulations. I think he is a God of love and wants concepts, attitudes, routines and traditions to reflect his love and He doesn't much care how we go about doing that. I don't think he is all that interested in our theology but rather in how we think, speak, live our lives in a relationship with Him.

Who am I to question the devotion to God of the person doing the stations of the cross, attending high mass, dutifully doing the Rosary, and all the other rituals and traditions when he/she is living a life in which God's love shines through him/her? Or the person attending the simple service with a few hymns and a sermon but no creed or liturgical readings/recitations, no pomp and circumstance at all when he/she is living a life in which God's love shines them him/her?

And I always joke--but am not really joking--that I think we're all going to have a good laugh when we get to Heaven and find out how much of all this we got wrong including Biblical interpretations.

 

[schmidlap]

Not what you think.

If God shows up publicly, then no men are savable as men need to be saved by faith alone as specified by the current Covenant in place. If God doesn't show up at all, then no man can know the existence of God and His covenants. The only way which works is for God to show up in front of the chosen eyewitnesses then for them to write down the testimonies, then for the rest of humankind to believe with faith to be saved.

Ancient prophets are reckoned by Israel (God's chosen people, that's how the Jews function) through 1) prophecies and 2) miracles, as humans are incapable of doing both by themselves. God grants such abilities to the prophets for Israel to reckon with them at the end. The eyewitnesses are reckoned as "prophets" as they can foretell (an ability which humans lack).

I am wary of those who presume to speak for gods, and see acceptance of selected historical testimonies of fallible humans with their disparate agendas as some sort of test.

 

[Foxfyre]

I recognize that your observations based upon your personal perspective concerning one religion appears to be common to religious adherents in general, regardless of the various sects, creeds, and denominations deriving from disparate geographical factors and historical happenstances. Devotees see value in and derive comfort from their doing them or just enjoy doing them. Human societies seem to have always had their gods, often insisting upon exclusive legitimacy in their respective canons.

My personal perspective comes from a long, long time studying comparative religions, Church history, development of Christian thought, what I have observed and my own experiences as a Christian.

 

[forkintheroad7]

I won't argue with your belief if that is what you are comfortable with. I think God likes us to be intellectually consistent so long as we are not doing harm to ourselves or others or setting a bad example that could lead others astray.

In my heart I don't think God is a God of routine rules and regulations. I think he is a God of love and wants concepts, attitudes, routines and traditions to reflect his love and He doesn't much care how we go about doing that. I don't think he is all that interested in our theology but rather in how we think, speak, live our lives in a relationship with Him.

And I always joke--but am not really joking--that I think we're all going to have a good laugh when we get to Heaven and find out how much of all this we got wrong including Biblical interpretations.

Well, you may get upset but from my pov, there are a few problems w/ what you say here. For one thing, I do not believe in something just so I can be "comfortable." There are many Truths that are not comforting to me or others, but that does not mean they are untrue. You say you don't think (glad you put it that way) that God is a God of routine rules and regulations. Well, define "routine" and maybe God wants routine in our lives anyhow? Routine is not all bad...

And we cannot EVER throw out rules that maybe God wants to keep. If we are not sure (yet the Church was given certainty from Christ), we should keep them. The Catholic Church kept many rituals and practices of the Jewish faith. The Church, guided by Christ, knew what to keep and what to disregard. So we can trust the Church (and no one else, really).

Also, it is in Purgatory that we, as you say "get to [the next realm] and find out how much of all this we got wrong." God makes all things right in Purgatory, but only if one keeps the Faith and obeys all Christ's commandments as best he or she can..

 

[Foxfyre]

Well, you may get upset but from my pov, there are a few problems w/ what you say here. For one thing, I do not believe in something just so I can be "comfortable." There are many Truths that are not comforting to me or others, but that does not mean they are untrue. You say you don't think (glad you put it that way) that God is a God of routine rules and regulations. Well, define "routine" and maybe God wants routine in our lives anyhow? Routine is not all bad...

And we cannot EVER throw out rules that maybe God wants to keep. If we are not sure (yet the Church was given certainty from Christ), we should keep them. The Catholic Church kept many rituals and practices of the Jewish faith. The Church, guided by Christ, knew what to keep and what to disregard. So we can trust the Church (and no one else, really).

Also, it is in Purgatory that we, as you say "get to [the next realm] and find out how much of all this we got wrong." God makes all things right in Purgatory, but only if one keeps the Faith and obeys all Christ's commandments as best he or she can..

You believe in purgatory and I respect that even though the doctrine was not established by the Church until the Thirteenth Century A.D..

I personally believe the 'next realm' is Heaven because Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient to purify me and I have accepted that forgiveness and assurance of Eternal Life. I believe my salvation is via God's magnanimous grace and that we cannot work to earn it nor can others work to earn it on my behalf as the doctrine of purgatory suggests. And who is perfect enough not to die in a state of imperfection? All sin and fall short which is why we need a Savior. But again I trust that it is by the purity of our hearts that we are judged and not by whatever form of worship or doctrinal beliefs we adopt as the 'right thing to believe.'

So which of us is right? I suspect in God's eyes, so long as our heart is with God, he doesn't care what we believe about purgatory. When we die then we'll know.

When Jesus broke bread and passed the cup in the Upper Room and told his disciples to do this in remembrance of me, did he mean an elaborate ritual/ceremony as many churches have, some at every service, some once a week, some once a month, some once a quarter, or just at the Passover meal, etc.? He didn't specify how often did he?

Or did he mean we are to do that at every meal? When we break bread and drink the cup at every meal we are to remember him and it was never intended to be a ritual for worship services only? I think God is probably pretty lenient in his views of how we do that too.

None of this is intended to shake your or anybody else's faith. It is more for the unbelievers that they might see that there isn't only one way to know and be in a right relationship with God when that 'one way' presented to them makes no sense to them at all.

 

[SweetSue92]

Religions seem to presume to know and proclaim what their god(s) of choice want, and a religion's adherents generally accept what they are told by those who run that religion. Is that "good for us"? I won't speculate. Humans are obviously as fallible concerning religion as everything else, but some seem to claim infallibility in the matter.

I remember that you accepted what "experts" told you to the point of injecting God-knows-what multiple times into your body. Right? We all have some level of listening people who "run things", but mine never, ever requires I inject stuff into my body.

I hope you will think about that.

 

[schmidlap]

I remember that you accepted what "experts" told you to the point of injecting God-knows-what multiple times into your body. Right? We all have some level of listening people who "run things", but mine never, ever requires I inject stuff into my body.

I hope you will think about that.

I have no idea what your talking about. If you are referring to my looking to medical experts for medical expertise, I do.

Who else knows more about medicine?

 

[BreezeWood]

I do think most Christians do sense when they think God would not like something though and try to avoid those things.

howabout the 4th century christian bible ... forgeries and fallacies on nearly every page and has been for centuries.

so who really are christians as well the other middle eastern religions.

 

[SweetSue92]

I have no idea what your talking about. If you are referring to my looking to medical experts for medical expertise, I do.

Who else knows more about medicine?

Your "medical experts" are in bed to make big $$$, for starters. Also: do I need to remind you how many times, and how specifically and horridly, "experts" have failed in time? Do you need a list?

Your beliefs are profoundly more foolish than mine, yes? Because they caused you to inject untested foreign substances INTO YOUR PERSON over....and over....and over, God only knows how many times.

I will take worshipping God over worshipping the State and the "experts" every day, and any day.

 

[schmidlap]

Your "medical experts" are in bed to make big $$$, for starters. Also: do I need to remind you how many times, and how specifically and horridly, "experts" have failed in time? Do you need a list?

Your beliefs are profoundly more foolish than mine, yes? Because they caused you to inject untested foreign substances INTO YOUR PERSON over....and over....and over, God only knows how many times.

I will take worshipping God over worshipping the State and the "experts" every day, and any day.

I am inclined to accept the consensus of qualified plumbers regarding a plumbing problem, electricians regarding an electrical problem, or cardiologists regarding a heart problem.

That respect for expertise extends to virologists, and epidemiologists. While I am aware that none is infallible, I am disinclined to substitute the opinion of an ideologue, whether a politician or media entertainer, regarding plumbing, electrical, cardiological, virological or epidemiological problems.

Render unto Caesar, Mark 12:17:

COVID-19 vaccines saved 20 million lives in 1 year​

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Few religions ban vaccination... ​

There are hundreds of religions, but in one summary tally, about five religions ban vaccinations, compared with at least 24 that don’t.​

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Vanderbilt University Medical Center’s review of immunization and religions identified a small subset of Christian faiths that oppose vaccination on theological grounds. There are five, a group that includes the Dutch Reformed Church, Church of the First Born, Faith Assembly and Endtime Ministries. The Vanderbilt list is largely a topline overview, not a comprehensive study of all religions worldwide.​

​

Many people might instantly think of Christian Scientists. While many Christian Scientists rely on prayer for healing, the Christian Science Church offered guidance to its members on vaccines in early 2019. It said that "for more than a century, our denomination has counseled respect for public health authorities and conscientious obedience to the laws of the land, including those requiring vaccination." ​

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Church leaders impose no decision on church members, but they encourage them to recognize the seriousness of public health concerns.​

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"Church members are free to make their own choices on all life-decisions, in obedience to the law, including whether or not to vaccinate," the statement said.​

​

Protestant faiths, Islam, Roman and Orthodox Catholicism, Judaism, Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and more have no prohibition against vaccination. ​

​

Sorting out vaccine mandates, religion and the law

Coronavirus vaccine mandates are spreading, and with them, pushback based on religion. In Washington, D.C., about 1,500

www.politifact.com

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[BreezeWood]

... or cardiologists regarding a heart problem.

have you tried the irregular heart beat "flip switch" technique ... they stop the heart and restart w/ an elect volt stimulator.

well, everything worked fine except heart did not reboot any differently - will give it another try 1st october. can hardly wait.


and to think sour sue, the desert dwellers only have to ask the heavens for the remedy almost might give one another thought to reading their bibles of deceptions if in itself that would not cause their spirits to shrivel and die over time as proven throughout history and their posts in this thread.