CDZ What do American Muslims want?

[Coyote]

The points I'd like to look at are:

What do Muslims in AMERICA want?
Are they any different than other religious groups in America?
What does this say about Muslim immigration in America vs other countries?

1. Geography is not germane. Muslims in America want the same thing as Muslims elsewhere want. They read the same Quran. They want slow painful deaths to infidels.

That's where I disagree, and that is where I feel culture comes in, so geography is very germaine. Islam is not a "diaspora" group - it's a group, like Christianity, that spread through proselytizing and conversions, some through violent means and conquests, some through passive assimilation into the dominant religion.

The result is that (and again, I'll compare it to Christianity) a religion who's practices and beliefs vary across cultures around the world. What constitutes modest dress, interpretation of Sharia, levels of tolerance to other faiths, etc. Core beliefs - belief in Prophet Mohammed, the 5 Pillars etc remain the same but there is variation elsewhere.

Just one example, this Pew poll on Muslims and Sharia around the world:

There is nothing I can find that shows even a significant minority of American Muslim support for killing infidels in a slow agonizing death.

2. To realize the difference, watch the news for a week and then compare atrocities. There will be no reports of Christians for example, slaughtering children at their school desks, or beheading, or lowering people in vats of acid, etc. by militant Christians. Or any other religious group that I know of, except Muslims.

A couple of points here:

Is the American Muslim community engaging in this?
Is there support in that community for these actions?
Also, we all know that the news focus' on the most sensational events - does that indicate a wide spread occurance or support for those activities?

3. It says that we will be thrown into the same state of insanity that is now Germany, France, Poland, Greece.....

It is a UN directive. A Muslim diaspora. And death. There is only one candidate that wants us out of the encroaching UN. Trump 2016

Except it hasn't happened - immigrants, included Muslims, integrate well into the US culture (again see the poll). We and a number of other countries seem to be quite successful at this. Is it due to how we handle it, the cultures and backgrounds our immigrants tend to come from vs others?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

But again, those are cultural questions, not religious ones.

No, not at all. Rape as an instrument of Islamic conquest has the most direct religious connection possible.

Mohammad ORDERED his men to rape the women in the lands they invaded, in front of their husbands, no less, and this despite the men's objections. It comes right from the Hadiths.

Are you unfamiliar with the Hadiths?

 

[The Irish Ram]

It all depends on the Muslim, some want to assimilate and others, the radical ones, want to impose their beliefs and law. Same as with any other group

Sass, I have to disagree on this one. No Muslim wants to assimilate. They group. They create No Go Zones. They aren't moving to the great Satan to become like the great Satan. The Quran tells those who do not have the guts to kill us, to pray for the success of those who do. They don't want out from under the weight of Sharia Law, they want to establish it in the U.S. even with the small % of them here so far.

Here is the evolution of the invasion of Muslims worldwide:

As Muslim population grows, what can happen to a society?

^ disprove these world wide statistics. If you can't, then realize how Obama's plan for 10 million Muslims within the next ten years will effect our country. This has absolutely nothing to do with gun rights, or bigotry, or Christianity.

 

[Arianrhod]

Not surprisingly, what we have so far is a variety of non-Muslim opinions of what Muslims in America want.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

It all depends on the Muslim, some want to assimilate and others, the radical ones, want to impose their beliefs and law. Same as with any other group

Sass, I have to disagree on this one. No Muslim wants to assimilate. They group. They create No Go Zones. They aren't moving to the great Satan to become like the great Satan. The Quran tells those who do not have the guts to kill us, to pray for the success of those who do. They don't want out from under the weight of Sharia Law, they want to establish it in the U.S. even with the small % of them here so far.

Here is the evolution of the invasion of Muslims worldwide:

As Muslim population grows, what can happen to a society?

^ disprove these world wide statistics. If you can't, then realize how Obama's plan for 10 million Muslims within the next ten years will effect our country. This has absolutely nothing to do with gun rights, or bigotry, or Christianity.

We'll have to disagree, there are two Muslims that work in my husband's firm, very nice people and they have been to our home, they have told me how much radical Islam irritates them and how the moderates need to stand up against the radicals. I truly believe there are good and bad in all factions...I may be wrong but I doubt it. I did ask them why more moderates don't stand and they told me it's fear.

 

[The Irish Ram]

They will remain very nice people while 2% of the population. Refer to the chart as to the changes that occur when the % increases. Then don't disagree with me, disagree with those statistics if you are able, and remove personal experience with one or two. Two will smile and tell you that they pray for you daily. Read the same Holy Book they do to understand exactly what they are praying for your future. A few will give the appearance and temperance of fitting in. A few million tell you where you fit in with their plan for peace and how it is to be achieved.

 

[The Irish Ram]

There is nothing I can find that shows even a significant minority of American Muslim support for killing infidels in a slow agonizing death.

Then you have not read their book.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"What do American Muslims want?"

The same thing as all other Americans want, where Muslim Americans are no different than any other American in that regard.

And although the First Amendment protects Muslim Americans from the fear, ignorance, and hate exhibited by some of their fellow Americans – where those with an unwarranted hatred of Muslims cannot enact laws and measures seeking to disadvantage Muslims solely because of their faith – Muslim Americans are nonetheless adversely effected by that unwarranted hate and bigotry, examples of which can be found on this very forum, in this very thread, consistent with the fear, ignorance, and hate common to most conservatives.

 

[Mac1958]

"What do American Muslims want?"

The same thing as all other Americans want, where Muslim Americans are no different than any other American in that regard.

And although the First Amendment protects Muslim Americans from the fear, ignorance, and hate exhibited by some of their fellow Americans – where those with an unwarranted hatred of Muslims cannot enact laws and measures seeking to disadvantage Muslims solely because of their faith – Muslim Americans are nonetheless adversely effected by that unwarranted hate and bigotry, examples of which can be found on this very forum, in this very thread, consistent with the fear, ignorance, and hate common to most conservatives.

Reported.
.

 

[Pogo]

They will remain very nice people while 2% of the population. Refer to the chart as to the changes that occur when the % increases. Then don't disagree with me, disagree with those statistics if you are able, and remove personal experience with one or two. Two will smile and tell you that they pray for you daily. Read the same Holy Book they do to understand exactly what they are praying for your future. A few will give the appearance and temperance of fitting in. A few million tell you where you fit in with their plan for peace and how it is to be achieved.

Seems to me you're pulling fantasies out of "statistics" and blogs while SIL and I are basing on personal experience.

Think I'm staying with the latter over the Imaginarium.

 

[Pogo]

There is nothing I can find that shows even a significant minority of American Muslim support for killing infidels in a slow agonizing death.

Then you have not read their book.

I suspect a significant number of them haven't either.
When you go looking for trouble --- you'll find it. Doesn't mean it's realistic.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

If any Muslim is working to replace our civilization with an Islamic one, they ARE part of a fifth column.

Since one of the most basic values of western liberalism involves the free exchange of ideas, that would extend to any who believe criticism of Islam should be forbidden.

All those display such an excessive deference to Islam to the point that they are working towards this same objective are most definitely part of the fifth column as well.

Disagree.

American Muslims practice the most basic values of Western liberalism, including the free exchange of ideas – again, American Muslims are no different than any other American.

Should an individual American Muslim advocate for laws and policies that conflict with the Constitution and its case law, then that individual alone should be subject to admonishment, not all Muslims or Islam as a religion, where he in fact is not ‘representative’ of all Muslims or Islam.

Moreover, ‘criticism’ of Islam as a religion is unwarranted, as individuals alone are responsible for their actions, not religions.

Indeed, when a Christian commits an act of terror, such as in the case of Scott Roeder, we correctly assign the blame to the terrorist alone, not ‘all Christians,’ and not Christianity as a religion; Muslims and Islam merit that same consideration.

And no one believes that criticism of Islam should be ‘forbidden,’ as hate speech is entitled to Constitutional protections, where bigots are at liberty to express their ignorance and hate with impunity.

Last, respecting the right of Muslims to practice their faith absent unwarranted interference and restrictions from government is not to show “excessive deference” to Islam, as all faiths are equally entitled to Establishment Clause protections, and all faiths will receive equal protection under the law.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Moreover, ‘criticism’ of Islam as a religion is unwarranted,.

Like I said.......

 

[Pogo]

Moreover, ‘criticism’ of Islam as a religion is unwarranted,.

Like I said.......

Revealing that you had to excise the entire rest of the post and quote only a dependent clause without its basis.
That's just dishonest.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I'm going to start by posting a post I posted in a thread now closed, because it provides the info I need for this thread.

Do American Muslims want Sharia to be the "law of the land"?

Here's some of Pew's poll on American Muslims: Section 5: Political Opinions and Social Values

None of the questions specifically ask about Sharia, however - there are a number of questions that ask about their views on topics that can be connected to Sharia (for example women's roles, homosexuality etc.):

Muslim Americans hold more conservative views than the general public about gays and lesbians. However, they have become more accepting of homosexuality since 2007.

Today, Muslim Americans are more divided on this question: 39% say homosexuality should be accepted, while 45% say it should be discouraged. Four years ago, far more said homosexuality should be discouraged (61%) than accepted (27%).


The broader public has become more accepting of homosexuality as well. Currently, 58% say homosexuality should be accepted, while 33% say it should be discouraged. In 2006, about half (51%) said homosexuality should be accepted, while 38% said it should be discouraged.


The changes since 2007 are evident across most demographic groups of Muslim Americans. One exception, though, is older Muslim Americans. Four years ago, 22% of this group said homosexuality should be accepted. Today, 21% say this. The next oldest age group – those 40 to 54 – are almost evenly divided (43% say homosexuality should be accepted; 47% say it should be discouraged). Four years ago, 69% of this group said homosexuality should be discouraged.


Acceptance of homosexuality has risen significantly among those with high levels of religious commitment (from 16% in 2007 to 30% today) as well as those with medium levels of religious commitment (from 21% in 2007 to 37% today). However, those who express a low level of religious commitment continue to be more accepting (57%) than those with a high religious commitment (30%). Four years ago, 47% of those with low religious commitment said homosexuality should be accepted, compared with 16% among those who express a high commitment.


Whether Muslim Americans were born in the U.S. or immigrated here seems to make little difference in views toward homosexuality. Currently, 41% of the native born say homosexuality should be accepted, about the same as the 38% of foreign born who say this. In both cases, the numbers are up since 2007 (30% among the native born, 26% among the foreign born).

Though overall Islam remains more conservative on this issue, it reflects the same trends as the general population over all, and the gap isn't huge and is closing. Compare this with countries, like Egypt or Afghanistan where there is a strong belief in that Sharia should be law of the land and a high intolerance for homosexuality.

The second area where adherence to a strict model of Sharia exerts an influence that is antithetical to western values is in the role of women, and here again we see distinct differences between Muslims in America and Muslims in the Middle East.

Nearly seven-in-ten U.S. Muslims (68%) say gender makes no difference in the quality of political leaders. Still, about a quarter (27%) say men make better political leaders. Very few (4%) say women make better leaders. There are only slight differences in views on this between men and women and among various age groups.

Among the U.S. public, 72% say gender does not determine who will be the better political leader. About one-in-ten each say men (12%) or women (13%) make better leaders.
On women working outside the home:
Muslim Americans show strong support for allowing women to join the workforce. Nine-in-ten either completely (72%) or mostly agree (18%) that women should be able to work outside the home. Among the U.S. general public, almost all either completely (81%) or mostly (16%) agree with this.

Attitudes among Muslim Americans are similar to attitudes among Muslims in Lebanon and Turkey. But support for women working outside the home is considerably smaller in many other Muslim nations. For example, in Egypt, only about six-in-ten say they either completely agree (23%) or mostly agree (39%) that women should be allowed to work outside the home. About four-in-ten (39%) disagree.


A few other takeaways from the poll:

• Support for Islamic extremism is negligable.

• Muslim Americans are religious, but not dogmatic (Many Muslim Americans are highly religious: 69% say that religion is very important in their lives; 70% of Christians say that religion is very important in their lives)

Overwhelming numbers of Muslim Americans believe in Allah (96%), the Prophet Muhammad (96%) and the Day of Judgment (92%). Yet the survey finds that most reject a dogmatic approach to religion. Most Muslim Americans (57%) say there is more than one true way to interpret the teachings of Islam; far fewer (37%) say that there is only one true interpretation of Islam. Similarly, 56% of Muslim Americans say that many different religions can lead to eternal life; just 35% say that Islam is the one true faith that leads to eternal life.

In this respect, Muslim Americans differ from many of their counterparts in the Muslim world and are similar to U.S. Christians. In the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life’s 2007 U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, 28% of Christians said that there was only one way to interpret the teachings of their religion.

• On wearing a hijab:

About a third of Muslim American women (36%) report always wearing the headcover or hijab whenever they are out in public, and an additional 24% say they wear the hijab most or some of the time. Four-in-ten (40%) say they never wear the headcover.

• On assimilation:

A majority of Muslim Americans (56%) say that most Muslims coming to the U.S. today want to adopt American customs and ways of life. Far fewer (20%) say that most Muslims coming to the U.S. want to be distinct from the larger American society, with a similar number (16%) volunteering that Muslim immigrants want to do both. Native-born and foreign-born Muslims give similar answers to this question.

More than six-in-ten American Muslims (63%) see no conflict between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern society, twice the number who do see such a conflict (31%). A 2006 Pew Research survey found a nearly identical pattern among American Christians who were asked about a possible conflict between modernity and their own faith. Nearly two-thirds of Christians (64%) said there is no conflict between being a devout Christian and living in a modern society, compared with 31% who did perceive a conflict.


When ask, who you are:

When you look at all this, as one big picture - two things stand out. There isn't a huge difference between American Muslims and American Christians (ie - the mainstream majority in the US).

The second thing is - it's impossible to reconcile these views with a desire to have Sharia be the law of the land by even a significant minority much less a majority.

I'm sure "Muslims" want what everybody else wants -- to live and reasonably prosper, no different from any other religion. "Muslim" itself as a category must like any religious label include a wide spectrum of religious depth, from the incidental/casual to the zealous, so it's fatally vague as a category.

The whole gender/sexuality issue is cultural anyway, not a religion-based thing. The same variance can be shown within Christianism or any other religious category, depending on the specific cultural background in play.

Correct.

What is often perceived to be ‘Muslim culture’ actually isn’t; as much of those beliefs and practices predate the advent of Islam by thousands of years.

Indeed, they’re manifestations typical of all traditional societies, not just societies where the majority are Muslim, and practices not uniquely ‘Islamic.’

 

[Pogo]

I'm going to start by posting a post I posted in a thread now closed, because it provides the info I need for this thread.

Do American Muslims want Sharia to be the "law of the land"?

Here's some of Pew's poll on American Muslims: Section 5: Political Opinions and Social Values

None of the questions specifically ask about Sharia, however - there are a number of questions that ask about their views on topics that can be connected to Sharia (for example women's roles, homosexuality etc.):

Muslim Americans hold more conservative views than the general public about gays and lesbians. However, they have become more accepting of homosexuality since 2007.

Today, Muslim Americans are more divided on this question: 39% say homosexuality should be accepted, while 45% say it should be discouraged. Four years ago, far more said homosexuality should be discouraged (61%) than accepted (27%).


The broader public has become more accepting of homosexuality as well. Currently, 58% say homosexuality should be accepted, while 33% say it should be discouraged. In 2006, about half (51%) said homosexuality should be accepted, while 38% said it should be discouraged.


The changes since 2007 are evident across most demographic groups of Muslim Americans. One exception, though, is older Muslim Americans. Four years ago, 22% of this group said homosexuality should be accepted. Today, 21% say this. The next oldest age group – those 40 to 54 – are almost evenly divided (43% say homosexuality should be accepted; 47% say it should be discouraged). Four years ago, 69% of this group said homosexuality should be discouraged.


Acceptance of homosexuality has risen significantly among those with high levels of religious commitment (from 16% in 2007 to 30% today) as well as those with medium levels of religious commitment (from 21% in 2007 to 37% today). However, those who express a low level of religious commitment continue to be more accepting (57%) than those with a high religious commitment (30%). Four years ago, 47% of those with low religious commitment said homosexuality should be accepted, compared with 16% among those who express a high commitment.


Whether Muslim Americans were born in the U.S. or immigrated here seems to make little difference in views toward homosexuality. Currently, 41% of the native born say homosexuality should be accepted, about the same as the 38% of foreign born who say this. In both cases, the numbers are up since 2007 (30% among the native born, 26% among the foreign born).

Though overall Islam remains more conservative on this issue, it reflects the same trends as the general population over all, and the gap isn't huge and is closing. Compare this with countries, like Egypt or Afghanistan where there is a strong belief in that Sharia should be law of the land and a high intolerance for homosexuality.

The second area where adherence to a strict model of Sharia exerts an influence that is antithetical to western values is in the role of women, and here again we see distinct differences between Muslims in America and Muslims in the Middle East.

Nearly seven-in-ten U.S. Muslims (68%) say gender makes no difference in the quality of political leaders. Still, about a quarter (27%) say men make better political leaders. Very few (4%) say women make better leaders. There are only slight differences in views on this between men and women and among various age groups.

Among the U.S. public, 72% say gender does not determine who will be the better political leader. About one-in-ten each say men (12%) or women (13%) make better leaders.
On women working outside the home:
Muslim Americans show strong support for allowing women to join the workforce. Nine-in-ten either completely (72%) or mostly agree (18%) that women should be able to work outside the home. Among the U.S. general public, almost all either completely (81%) or mostly (16%) agree with this.

Attitudes among Muslim Americans are similar to attitudes among Muslims in Lebanon and Turkey. But support for women working outside the home is considerably smaller in many other Muslim nations. For example, in Egypt, only about six-in-ten say they either completely agree (23%) or mostly agree (39%) that women should be allowed to work outside the home. About four-in-ten (39%) disagree.


A few other takeaways from the poll:

• Support for Islamic extremism is negligable.

• Muslim Americans are religious, but not dogmatic (Many Muslim Americans are highly religious: 69% say that religion is very important in their lives; 70% of Christians say that religion is very important in their lives)

Overwhelming numbers of Muslim Americans believe in Allah (96%), the Prophet Muhammad (96%) and the Day of Judgment (92%). Yet the survey finds that most reject a dogmatic approach to religion. Most Muslim Americans (57%) say there is more than one true way to interpret the teachings of Islam; far fewer (37%) say that there is only one true interpretation of Islam. Similarly, 56% of Muslim Americans say that many different religions can lead to eternal life; just 35% say that Islam is the one true faith that leads to eternal life.

In this respect, Muslim Americans differ from many of their counterparts in the Muslim world and are similar to U.S. Christians. In the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life’s 2007 U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, 28% of Christians said that there was only one way to interpret the teachings of their religion.

• On wearing a hijab:

About a third of Muslim American women (36%) report always wearing the headcover or hijab whenever they are out in public, and an additional 24% say they wear the hijab most or some of the time. Four-in-ten (40%) say they never wear the headcover.

• On assimilation:

A majority of Muslim Americans (56%) say that most Muslims coming to the U.S. today want to adopt American customs and ways of life. Far fewer (20%) say that most Muslims coming to the U.S. want to be distinct from the larger American society, with a similar number (16%) volunteering that Muslim immigrants want to do both. Native-born and foreign-born Muslims give similar answers to this question.

More than six-in-ten American Muslims (63%) see no conflict between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern society, twice the number who do see such a conflict (31%). A 2006 Pew Research survey found a nearly identical pattern among American Christians who were asked about a possible conflict between modernity and their own faith. Nearly two-thirds of Christians (64%) said there is no conflict between being a devout Christian and living in a modern society, compared with 31% who did perceive a conflict.


When ask, who you are:

When you look at all this, as one big picture - two things stand out. There isn't a huge difference between American Muslims and American Christians (ie - the mainstream majority in the US).

The second thing is - it's impossible to reconcile these views with a desire to have Sharia be the law of the land by even a significant minority much less a majority.

I'm sure "Muslims" want what everybody else wants -- to live and reasonably prosper, no different from any other religion. "Muslim" itself as a category must like any religious label include a wide spectrum of religious depth, from the incidental/casual to the zealous, so it's fatally vague as a category.

The whole gender/sexuality issue is cultural anyway, not a religion-based thing. The same variance can be shown within Christianism or any other religious category, depending on the specific cultural background in play.

Correct.

What is often perceived to be ‘Muslim culture’ actually isn’t; as much of those beliefs and practices predate the advent of Islam by thousands of years.

Indeed, they’re manifestations typical of all traditional societies, not just societies where the majority are Muslim, and practices not uniquely ‘Islamic.’

-- And that very conflation is made continuously on these pages, e.g. on FGM and "'honor' killing" to name two, even though they're provably based in ancient history. One cannot escape the sense that the conflation is deliberate in an attempt to advance the dubious cause of religious bigotry.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

It all depends on the Muslim, some want to assimilate and others, the radical ones, want to impose their beliefs and law. Same as with any other group

Agree, all groups have their lunatic fringe.

I cringe when what I call radical Christians say or do stupid stuff. There was one going through Target stores spewing nonsense, she wasn't doing herself any favors and looked like a nut

I imagine that moderate muslims in the U.S. feel the same way, along with feeling afraid that their children who are having difficulties with being immigrants or refugees, will be recruited by Islamist groups.

It's hard when kids are going through their teens or early twenties...they are all in search of an identity, and immigrant kids even moreso.

I think that is a huge fear, because recruitment - or maybe a better term is "grooming" these children for radicalization is often done under the radar through social media etc that parents aren't aware of. ISIS in particular has become extremely sophisticated at identifying who is vulnerable and targeting them. IMO we need to find ways of combating this before radicalization because once those kids leave the US they are lost.

And those efforts should be made with the correct and accurate understanding that those who seek to recruit for terror are not ‘representative’ if Islam, and that we are not ‘combating’ Islam as a religion; rather, we are combating the criminals who have misappropriated Islam in a failed effort to ‘justify’ their acts of terror.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Not surprisingly, what we have so far is a variety of non-Muslim opinions of what Muslims in America want.

And not surprisingly, those errant, wrongheaded opinions are coming from those on right the with an unwarranted hostility toward Islam.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Moreover, ‘criticism’ of Islam as a religion is unwarranted,.

Like I said.......

Revealing that you had to excise the entire rest of the post and quote only a dependent clause without its basis.
That's just dishonest.

No dishonesty on my part. He indicated that Islam is one ideology that cannot be criticized.

Indeed, all the name calling infused in all his postings aimed at those who do not share his belief that this is one ideology that cannot be criticized indicates as much.

The same people who defend Islam have no compunctions when it comes to Christianity, of course, and so their selectivity reveals the agenda involved, which is most assuredly NOT the promotion of the free exchange of ideas.

Why should Islam not be subject to the same scrutiny as communism, fascism, libertarianism or any other belief system? Could it be that it's adherents so often kill those who criticize that leads those to support it like they so obviously do?

Let's feed the crocodile hoping it will eat you last, eh?

 

[Mac1958]

Moreover, ‘criticism’ of Islam as a religion is unwarranted,.

Like I said.......

Revealing that you had to excise the entire rest of the post and quote only a dependent clause without its basis.
That's just dishonest.

No dishonesty on my part. He indicated that Islam is one ideology that cannot be criticized.

Indeed, all the name calling infused in all his postings aimed at those who do not share his belief that this is one ideology that cannot be criticized indicates as much.

The same people who defend Islam have no compunctions when it comes to Christianity, of course, and so their selectivity reveals the agenda involved, which is most assuredly NOT the promotion of the free exchange of ideas.

Why should Islam not be subject to the same scrutiny as communism, fascism, libertarianism or any other belief system? Could it be that it's adherents so often kill those who criticize that leads those to support it like they so obviously do?

Let's feed the crocodile hoping it will eat you last, eh?

Here we go again, huh? I'm keeping track of this stuff for later use.

To answer the question posed by the OP, it's not a monolithic group, the question is impossible to answer.
.