CDZ What do American Muslims want?

[Dogmaphobe]

Not surprisingly, what we have so far is a variety of non-Muslim opinions of what Muslims in America want.

And not surprisingly, those errant, wrongheaded opinions are coming from those on right the with an unwarranted hostility toward Islam.

Why do you not believe in freedom of belief?

Most Muslims certainly do not, and when you characterize those who object to a belief system that SHOULD be voluntary by calling them the sort of names used for people who hate those for things that AREN'T voluntary, your name calling only indicates that you do not believe I should have the ability to criticize somebody for a choice they made because they didn't actually have that choice.

 

[pillars]

But again, those are cultural questions, not religious ones.

No, not at all. Rape as an instrument of Islamic conquest has the most direct religious connection possible.

Mohammad ORDERED his men to rape the women in the lands they invaded, in front of their husbands, no less, and this despite the men's objections. It comes right from the Hadiths.

Are you unfamiliar with the Hadiths?

YHWH allowed the Israelites to do the same.

 

[pillars]

Not surprisingly, what we have so far is a variety of non-Muslim opinions of what Muslims in America want.

And not surprisingly, those errant, wrongheaded opinions are coming from those on right the with an unwarranted hostility toward Islam.

Why do you not believe in freedom of belief?

Most Muslims certainly do not, and when you characterize those who object to a belief system that SHOULD be voluntary by calling them the sort of names used for people who hate those for things that AREN'T voluntary, your name calling only indicates that you do not believe I should have the ability to criticize somebody for a choice they made because they didn't actually have that choice.

Heathen
Pagan
Blasphemer
Spawn of satan
Baby murderer

I have been called all of the above for not being Christian and not following Christian norms.

 

[LoneLaugher]

If any Muslim is working to replace our civilization with an Islamic one, they ARE part of a fifth column.

Since one of the most basic values of western liberalism involves the free exchange of ideas, that would extend to any who believe criticism of Islam should be forbidden.

All those display such an excessive deference to Islam to the point that they are working towards this same objective are most definitely part of the fifth column as well.

Who displays an excessive deference to Islam?

 

[LoneLaugher]

But again, those are cultural questions, not religious ones.

No, not at all. Rape as an instrument of Islamic conquest has the most direct religious connection possible.

Mohammad ORDERED his men to rape the women in the lands they invaded, in front of their husbands, no less, and this despite the men's objections. It comes right from the Hadiths.

Are you unfamiliar with the Hadiths?

Are you familiar with the facts regarding the Hadiths?

 

[Ravi]

Moreover, ‘criticism’ of Islam as a religion is unwarranted,.

Like I said.......

Revealing that you had to excise the entire rest of the post and quote only a dependent clause without its basis.
That's just dishonest.

No dishonesty on my part. He indicated that Islam is one ideology that cannot be criticized.

Indeed, all the name calling infused in all his postings aimed at those who do not share his belief that this is one ideology that cannot be criticized indicates as much.

The same people who defend Islam have no compunctions when it comes to Christianity, of course, and so their selectivity reveals the agenda involved, which is most assuredly NOT the promotion of the free exchange of ideas.

Why should Islam not be subject to the same scrutiny as communism, fascism, libertarianism or any other belief system? Could it be that it's adherents so often kill those who criticize that leads those to support it like they so obviously do?

Let's feed the crocodile hoping it will eat you last, eh?

No, he didn't say that at all.

He also said we shouldn't blame Christianity when a Christian commits terrorism.

Not sure what the point of misrepresenting people's posts is if you feel secure in your beliefs.

 

[Arianrhod]

Why do you not believe in freedom of belief?

For everyone but Muslims?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I have been called all of the above for not being Christian and not following Christian norms.

Your point being?

 

[Ravi]

But again, those are cultural questions, not religious ones.

No, not at all. Rape as an instrument of Islamic conquest has the most direct religious connection possible.

Mohammad ORDERED his men to rape the women in the lands they invaded, in front of their husbands, no less, and this despite the men's objections. It comes right from the Hadiths.

Are you unfamiliar with the Hadiths?

Are you familiar with the facts regarding the Hadiths?

I would like to know what he is talking about. I don't recall any prophet or God condoning rape.

I know God condoned abortion in some cases

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I would like to know what he is talking about. s

Abu Dawud 2150

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."

 

[Pogo]

No dishonesty on my part. He indicated that Islam is one ideology that cannot be criticized.

XXXX - Mod Edit ...... what he actually said, verbatim, copied from the post itself, was this:

Moreover, ‘criticism’ of Islam as a religion is unwarranted, as individuals alone are responsible for their actions, not religions.​

--- which, for context, directly followed this:

Should an individual American Muslim advocate for laws and policies that conflict with the Constitution and its case law, then that individual alone should be subject to admonishment, not all Muslims or Islam as a religion, where he in fact is not ‘representative’ of all Muslims or Islam.
​

---- All of which you excised in order to pretend he made a different point than he actually did, which is why it's blatantly dishonest. It's a simple explanation of the fallacy of Composition.

XXXX - Mod Edit ......

Moreover he gave the example of Christian terrorists that we don't paint with the same Composition Fallacy broad brush, thus pointing out the Double Standard of "when we do it it's an outlier, a 'lone wolf'; when they do it it's the nature of the religion".

And he's exactly right. It *IS* a fallacy and has been from the first time it was trotted out.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Why do you not believe in freedom of belief?

For everyone but Muslims?

I have never indicated such.

They have the right to believe. I SHOULD have the right to assail those beliefs when they run counter to those of secular humanism.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Why do you not believe in freedom of belief?

For everyone but Muslims?

I have never indicated such.

They have the right to believe. I SHOULD have the right to assail those beliefs when they run counter to those of secular humanism.

You are not doing that, though. You are "assailing" the entirety of the population who ascribe to Muslim beliefs.

Secular humanism? That's funny.

 

[Ravi]

I would like to know what he is talking about. s

Abu Dawud 2150

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."

Do you have a link to that? Cause I don't think Mo would say peace be upon Mo. Sounds like someone else's interpretation. Plus those parenthesis are suspicious.

 

[Coyote]

It all depends on the Muslim, some want to assimilate and others, the radical ones, want to impose their beliefs and law. Same as with any other group

Sass, I have to disagree on this one. No Muslim wants to assimilate. They group. They create No Go Zones. They aren't moving to the great Satan to become like the great Satan. The Quran tells those who do not have the guts to kill us, to pray for the success of those who do. They don't want out from under the weight of Sharia Law, they want to establish it in the U.S. even with the small % of them here so far.

Then how do you reconcile that to the vast success Muslims have had in integrating in America, and also in other countries? There are no no-go zones in the US, nor are there any in Europe, that is hoax.

The Quran also says: “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.” (Abu Dawud)

Here is the evolution of the invasion of Muslims worldwide:

As Muslim population grows, what can happen to a society?

^ disprove these world wide statistics. If you can't, then realize how Obama's plan for 10 million Muslims within the next ten years will effect our country. This has absolutely nothing to do with gun rights, or bigotry, or Christianity.

It's very disputable and ignores some pretty important points in some of the countries listed: in some, Muslims PRECEDED the Christian invasion for example. In others - they've coexisted for over a thousand years. In the US, they are one of the best assimilated immigrant groups. There's a lot of mythology surrounding some of the claims.

On assimilation:

Despite the hysterical rhetoric coming from Newt Gingrich, Michelle Bachmann and their ilk, Muslims there are not only a very tiny group, but they are also one of the most integrated groups in the country — especially if you consider that 69% of American Muslims are first-generation immigrants, and 71% of those immigrants arrived after 1990.​

On views towards western values:

Muslim immigrants in the West hold the same backward views that Muslims do in the Middle East and Pakistan
Actually, Muslims change their cultural views dramatically when they emigrate. For example, 62% of American Muslims say that “a way can be found for the state of Israel to exist so that the rights of Palestinians are addressed” — a rate barely lower than that of average Americans (67%), and vastly ahead of the miniscule response among Middle Eastern Muslims — for whom between 20% and 40% agreed with that statement.


Similarly, 39% of American Muslims and 47% of German Muslims say they tolerate homosexuality, compared to single-figure responses in most Islamic countries — and those rates are rising with each immigrant generation. On these important questions, Muslim immigrants are converging with Western values fast.​

On terrorism:

While it might seem chilling to learn that 8% of American Muslims feel that violence against civilian targets is “often or sometimes justified” if the cause is right, you have to compare that to the response given by non-Muslim Americans, 24% of whom said that such attacks are “often or sometimes justified.”​

 

[Coyote]

They will remain very nice people while 2% of the population. Refer to the chart as to the changes that occur when the % increases. Then don't disagree with me, disagree with those statistics if you are able, and remove personal experience with one or two. Two will smile and tell you that they pray for you daily. Read the same Holy Book they do to understand exactly what they are praying for your future. A few will give the appearance and temperance of fitting in. A few million tell you where you fit in with their plan for peace and how it is to be achieved.

Why do you believe that chart?

 

[Coyote]

There is nothing I can find that shows even a significant minority of American Muslim support for killing infidels in a slow agonizing death.

Then you have not read their book.

Ok, let me ask you this - the Bible, in particular, the OT is full of extortions to destroy unbelievers, exterminate people, rape women etc. Does that mean those followers of the religions that are based on it support it?

 

[froggy]

But are they truely American? Or for that matter any one living like they were still in the country of their parents origin here in America are they truely American.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

There is nothing I can find that shows even a significant minority of American Muslim support for killing infidels in a slow agonizing death.

Then you have not read their book.

Ok, let me ask you this - the Bible, in particular, the OT is full of extortions to destroy unbelievers, exterminate people, rape women etc. Does that mean those followers of the religions that are based on it support it?

The old testament does not contain the teachings of Jesus. The new testament does.

To compare Mohammad's instructions to his warriors to rape women in front of their husbands, in order to compare apples to apples instead of apples to atom bombs, you would need to find direct instructions by Jesus along the same lines.

 

[Arianrhod]

But are they truely American? Or for that matter any one living like they were still in the country of their parents origin here in America are they truely American.

There is no "American" culture. It's a crazy-quilt of traditions brought from everywhere else and stitched together here.