What constitutes offense?

[N4mddissent]

Recently, ads purchased by an atheist group in Iowa were placed on buses there. However, the bus company received so many complaints of people taking offense at the ads, they have now removed them. Even the governnor, Chet Culver, stated he was "disturbed" by the ads and could understand why others would be as well. Some people went so far as to refuse to ride the buses with the ads.

What message did the atheists put on the bus that was so offensive and caused so much resentment?

"Don't believe in God? You are not alone. " And then had a link to the website of Iowa atheists and freethinkers.

So, the existence of atheism inherent offends people? I'm curious how people, theists and atheists on this site feel about this situation. Do any theists here also find the ad offensive? Do you think the people were justified in their outrage and their successful effort to silence speech in this case?

At what point does offense begin? Obviously name-calling is offensive. Calling someone stupid or evil because of their beliefs, I believe most would see as over-the-line. But what about reasonable criticism of ideas? Is debate possible, or does taking the opposing stance in argument make you inherently offensive? And in the case presented here, is it unavoidable- since a reminder of the very existence of atheists seems offensive to enough people to force a company to refund money and "disturb" a governor?

I would also like to note the admirable statements and position by local conservative church leaders about the issue mentioned at the end of the article.

 

[KittenKoder]

The disturbing part of this is that it was the blind followers who pushed them to remove the ads, according to the article even some of the religious leaders said they should have been left alone and not removed.

 

[N4mddissent]

The disturbing part of this is that it was the blind followers who pushed them to remove the ads, according to the article even some of the religious leaders said they should have been left alone and not removed.

Yeah, I tried to give them a nod at the end of my post. I hope people will voice their opinion on this. I tend to see a lack outspokeness, in the context of this forum where many are outspoken about many things, as indicating acceptance if not approval. I hope that few here approve of this incident.

 

[wvulax]

but yelling at people god hates fags, and harassing people on the sidewalk of every city big and small isn't offensive.

theists make me sick with their flexible moral codes

 

[mattskramer]

Recently, ads purchased by an atheist group in Iowa were placed on buses there. However, the bus company received so many complaints of people taking offense at the ads, they have now removed them. Even the governnor, Chet Culver, stated he was "disturbed" by the ads and could understand why others would be as well. Some people went so far as to refuse to ride the buses with the ads.

What message did the atheists put on the bus that was so offensive and caused so much resentment?

"Don't believe in God? You are not alone. " And then had a link to the website of Iowa atheists and freethinkers.

So, the existence of atheism inherent offends people? I'm curious how people, theists and atheists on this site feel about this situation. Do any theists here also find the ad offensive? Do you think the people were justified in their outrage and their successful effort to silence speech in this case?

At what point does offense begin? Obviously name-calling is offensive. Calling someone stupid or evil because of their beliefs, I believe most would see as over-the-line. But what about reasonable criticism of ideas? Is debate possible, or does taking the opposing stance in argument make you inherently offensive? And in the case presented here, is it unavoidable- since a reminder of the very existence of atheists seems offensive to enough people to force a company to refund money and "disturb" a governor?

I would also like to note the admirable statements and position by local conservative church leaders about the issue mentioned at the end of the article.

I’m agnostic and I think that the in the name of free speech and free enterprise, the bus has the right to have that sign – just as if a Christian group rented advertising space for its sign. I read the article but I’m not clear on exactly why the sign was removed. Was the bus physically threatened? Was it ordered to do so by some government agency? Did the bus remove the sign out of thinking that a boycott might result?

 

[KittenKoder]

Recently, ads purchased by an atheist group in Iowa were placed on buses there. However, the bus company received so many complaints of people taking offense at the ads, they have now removed them. Even the governnor, Chet Culver, stated he was "disturbed" by the ads and could understand why others would be as well. Some people went so far as to refuse to ride the buses with the ads.

What message did the atheists put on the bus that was so offensive and caused so much resentment?

"Don't believe in God? You are not alone. " And then had a link to the website of Iowa atheists and freethinkers.

So, the existence of atheism inherent offends people? I'm curious how people, theists and atheists on this site feel about this situation. Do any theists here also find the ad offensive? Do you think the people were justified in their outrage and their successful effort to silence speech in this case?

At what point does offense begin? Obviously name-calling is offensive. Calling someone stupid or evil because of their beliefs, I believe most would see as over-the-line. But what about reasonable criticism of ideas? Is debate possible, or does taking the opposing stance in argument make you inherently offensive? And in the case presented here, is it unavoidable- since a reminder of the very existence of atheists seems offensive to enough people to force a company to refund money and "disturb" a governor?

I would also like to note the admirable statements and position by local conservative church leaders about the issue mentioned at the end of the article.

I’m agnostic and I think that the in the name of free speech and free enterprise, the bus has the right to have that sign – just as if a Christian group rented advertising space for its sign. I read the article but I’m not clear on exactly why the sign was removed. Was the bus physically threatened? Was it ordered to do so by some government agency? Did the bus remove the sign out of thinking that a boycott might result?

It sounds like a few zealots did the whining really, across the country more people are walking or biking to save money so ridership going down is no surprise, the timing was just coincidental but boosted fears of the bus company.

 

[Avatar4321]

Recently, ads purchased by an atheist group in Iowa were placed on buses there. However, the bus company received so many complaints of people taking offense at the ads, they have now removed them. Even the governnor, Chet Culver, stated he was "disturbed" by the ads and could understand why others would be as well. Some people went so far as to refuse to ride the buses with the ads.

What message did the atheists put on the bus that was so offensive and caused so much resentment?

"Don't believe in God? You are not alone. " And then had a link to the website of Iowa atheists and freethinkers.

So, the existence of atheism inherent offends people? I'm curious how people, theists and atheists on this site feel about this situation. Do any theists here also find the ad offensive? Do you think the people were justified in their outrage and their successful effort to silence speech in this case?

At what point does offense begin? Obviously name-calling is offensive. Calling someone stupid or evil because of their beliefs, I believe most would see as over-the-line. But what about reasonable criticism of ideas? Is debate possible, or does taking the opposing stance in argument make you inherently offensive? And in the case presented here, is it unavoidable- since a reminder of the very existence of atheists seems offensive to enough people to force a company to refund money and "disturb" a governor?

I would also like to note the admirable statements and position by local conservative church leaders about the issue mentioned at the end of the article.

I would suppose that the offensive nature of the advertisement is the suggestion that anyone who is not athiest does not think for themselves. Personally, I dont get offended by such statements. Anyone who thinks they think freely because they hold to a position and others dont because they hold to another are usually the least free thinking people around.

So yes, when a group advertises to tell people they are stupid and unable to think freely, I think its quite likely to cause people to be offended.

 

[Avatar4321]

but yelling at people god hates fags, and harassing people on the sidewalk of every city big and small isn't offensive.

theists make me sick with their flexible moral codes

Theists are one of the first ones who say those things are offensive. The Westboro group doesnt have any support among 99.99% of religious people. And its quite dishonest to claim otherwise.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

The disturbing part of this is that it was the blind followers who pushed them to remove the ads, according to the article even some of the religious leaders said they should have been left alone and not removed.

Yeah, I tried to give them a nod at the end of my post. I hope people will voice their opinion on this. I tend to see a lack outspokeness, in the context of this forum where many are outspoken about many things, as indicating acceptance if not approval. I hope that few here approve of this incident.

I dont really like the behavior you highlighted in that incident at all.

I also like your signature quote .

 

[wvulax]

I'll give you the Westboro group point, but I still say that this "offense" is ridiculus when compared to any evangelical who goes out and hands me propaganda or yells at me that I'm not complete without Jesus or that I will burn in hell without him. I've heard religious leaders claim that I have a void in my life because I don't go to church.

If it's ok to hand out a pamphlet that says I will burn in firy agony for the rest of eternity unless I act like them, why is it so offensive to advertise a group offering solace in numbers?

 

[KittenKoder]

I'll give you the Westboro group point, but I still say that this "offense" is ridiculus when compared to any evangelical who goes out and hands me propaganda or yells at me that I'm not complete without Jesus or that I will burn in hell without him. I've heard religious leaders claim that I have a void in my life because I don't go to church.

If it's ok to hand out a pamphlet that says I will burn in firy agony for the rest of eternity unless I act like them, why is it so offensive to advertise a group offering solace in numbers?

Read the article, the christian leaders in the area were defending the right for the atheist groups who put it up, so you anger is unfounded. It wasn't the churches who pushed it, most likely it was a few zealot followers.

 

[Avatar4321]

Think is, what's wrong with people voicing concerns about it? They have just as many rights as the people who voiced their opinion in the ad. Christians dont have to take the buses if they dont want to. Christians dont have to buy certain products if they dont want to.

You may have your right to voice your opinions but that doesnt mean that somehow everyone has to accept it without opposition. That's what America is all about. Freedom to speak ones mind.

 

[Big Black Dog]

To me personally, the signs would not be a big deal because I feel comfortable enough with my religious beliefs to not be offended or intimidated by the signs. My right to believe in God is personal in nature just as your belief that there is no God is deeply personal to you. I don't care what is said or done in the name of "no belief in God". At the end of the day, I get ready for bed, say my prayers and go to sleep. Same as always... Nothing you can say or write or put on a bus ad will change that. If you feel strenght in your beliefs I can't see how a silly sign would alter that. I think a big deal has been made out of nothing.

 

[wvulax]

KK-I'm not angry I just want to get an actual discussion and it seems you have to piss people off to get that. btw there are several threads I'm sure that will agree that public figures lie and manipulate the truth to their advantage. Not that I have any shred of evidence to believe that in this case. I just wanted to point out the possibility.

There was no opinion voiced.
Fact: if you don't believe in god, you are not alone
fact: if you type in the web address you will go to that site
Fact; there is a group called Iowa atheists and freethinkers

I think we need to stop attacking atheists for being atheists.

I was trying to point out that DART agreed with the zealots thinking this was offensive. That is hypocritical to me because the city runs DART and still allows religious groups to hand out fliers in public sidewalks.

 

[manifold]

I hope that few here approve of this incident.

I'm not sure what you mean by approval.

While I'm certainly not offended by it and think that those who complained are intolerant a-holes, on the whole this is an example of the free market at work. No different than the "conservative" kiosk in the NC mall that didn't get it's license renewed. I approve of the free market.

 

[manifold]

So yes, when a group advertises to tell people they are stupid and unable to think freely, I think its quite likely to cause people to be offended.

Did you actually look at the ad? Not sure how you came to that conclusion... at all.

 

[KittenKoder]

KK-I'm not angry I just want to get an actual discussion and it seems you have to piss people off to get that. btw there are several threads I'm sure that will agree that public figures lie and manipulate the truth to their advantage. Not that I have any shred of evidence to believe that in this case. I just wanted to point out the possibility.

There was no opinion voiced.
Fact: if you don't believe in god, you are not alone
fact: if you type in the web address you will go to that site
Fact; there is a group called Iowa atheists and freethinkers

I think we need to stop attacking atheists for being atheists.

I was trying to point out that DART agreed with the zealots thinking this was offensive. That is hypocritical to me because the city runs DART and still allows religious groups to hand out fliers in public sidewalks.

Okay, that is a different perspective than I had thought. I can agree with most of that, but DART also has to think of profits to stay in business, in spite of who runs it, so they had a good reason to be afraid of losing ridership. The problem as I pointed out is that ridership is down because of the economy and the timing just made it look to them like they stood to lose profits because of the signs. It was brash on their part, kneejerk. I truly doubt there were that many people with fuax offense to have made such an impact.

 

[Intense]

Wow. I read all the previous Posts, then checked out the link last. I find it very ironic and slightly amusing that Atheists in Des Moines are suffering from religious persecution. The good in the situation is the experience of hurt and rejection, the empathy and understanding felt at the injustice of the situation, and applying the memory of that when it's your turn to decide. It is a tool. I personally find no offense in the ad and think it should be reinstated with a little bonus for the trouble. I think the same should apply to Religious Holiday Decorations. We need to stop misapplying the first amendment restrictions.

 

[N4mddissent]

Think is, what's wrong with people voicing concerns about it? They have just as many rights as the people who voiced their opinion in the ad. Christians dont have to take the buses if they dont want to. Christians dont have to buy certain products if they dont want to.

You may have your right to voice your opinions but that doesnt mean that somehow everyone has to accept it without opposition. That's what America is all about. Freedom to speak ones mind.

I have no problem with people speaking their minds. I would not censor the people complaining. However, while someone may be within their rights to do something, it doesn't mean we necessarily have to approve of it. For example, many people might not approve of drinking alcohol- but they can still acknowledge your right to do so.

I was just struck by this article, not because I think some action should necessarily be taken. It's pretty much a moot point. But I was taken aback by the fact that locals were offended by a message not even directed at them. I don't understand where you get the idea that it called anyone stupid or unable to think for themselves. The message was simply Don't believe in God? You're not alone. A message to fellow atheists that there are others in Iowa who hold similar views and then a link to their website.

So yes, I support their right to boycott or complain. But I also have the right to call them out as intolerant, bigoted people full of unimaginable scorn if atheists sending a comforting message of support to other atheists offends them so greatly. If the mere acknowledgement of the existence of atheists is offensive to someone, they are a bigoted as any Klan member or neo-nazi, since the mere existence of certain groups is offensive to these people as well.

If a Jewish group bought an ad saying "Child of Israel, The Temple welcomes you", how would people view individuals who called and complained about this Jewish message and boycotted the bus. And how would they view the governor saying he was disturbed by it?

 

[JBeukema]

but yelling at people god hates fags, and harassing people on the sidewalk of every city big and small isn't offensive.

theists make me sick with their flexible moral codes

Theists are one of the first ones who say those things are offensive. The Westboro group doesnt have any support among 99.99% of religious people. And its quite dishonest to claim otherwise.

They have the support of your god. If you do not support them, you oppose your god.