What beliefs define a 21st Century American conservative?

[Foxfyre]

Not according to Rasmussen who has polled exhaustively on the subject and put out his own book on the subject not long ago. A large majority of Americans still want to govern themselves rather than be governed which is essentially what modern American conservatism is.

Everyone, or nearly everyone, is going to be answering "yes" to that question, which in no way, shape or form fully encompasses the range of beliefs you were referring to. Break it down into specifics if you REALLY, TRULY want to KNOW the answer to this question, and not to merely make yourself feel good.

You'll have to read the book to understand I guess. It isn't based on the answer to 'a question' but is based on beliefs and concepts expressed by a broad segment (and majority) of American society.

 

[Foxfyre]

That group will cease to exist as a political force within the next few decades. It already has no traction with the Millennial generation. It will disappear simply because those who believe in it will grow old and die, and not be replaced.

True to a point, most everyone between the ages of 18 and 50 have been taught that big gov't, big spending and never ending military intervention is a good thing.

That isn't what I'm talking about, nor does the opposite to them equate to what Foxfyre meant. Conservatism by the dictionary definition will never disappear. Conservatives are the skeletal structure of any society, necessary for its cohesion. But the particular set of beliefs that define the "conservative" movement are unique to these times, and will cease to be a political force within thirty years.

Actually, the "conservative movement" isn't uniformly against big government or big spending, and tends to be in favor of military intervention most of the time. We should judge it by the specific policies that are supported and not by its slogans.

Yes, the modern American conservative is uniformly against big government and big spending. Military intervention isn't even on the radar as far as their personal convictions. Again, as a modern American conservative I won't allow you to define who and what I am. Pretty much everybody holds a conservative conviction or two, but the Modern American Conservative is defined by the definition I provided. Those who don't embrace it are not Modern American Conservatives.

I do believe our numbers are legion however.

 

[Dragon]

You'll have to read the book to understand I guess. It isn't based on the answer to 'a question' but is based on beliefs and concepts expressed by a broad segment (and majority) of American society.

Let me make this as clear and specific as possible. Within the next thirty years, no significant portion of the population will believe any of the following:

1) That income gaps should be anywhere near as wide as they are now.
2) That our interests as a nation are served by having an enormous military force stronger than the rest of the world's combined, or in an aggressive foreign policy making use of it.
3) That there is anything wrong with publicly-funded social welfare programs such as Social Security.
4) That a private, for-profit medical system with private, for-profit medical insurance is the best way to go.
5) That labor unions are an infringement on the rights of labor.
6) That corporations should be free to influence elections and/or the behavior of politicians by spending their money without limit to do so.

I like to break it down to specifics like this, because I find that when conservatives put up general values statements as "what we believe in," they tend to be things I believe in as well, but follow to completely different specific policy conclusions. (For example, I would have answered the question you presented earlier "yes" myself -- I would prefer to govern myself rather than be governed -- yet I am certainly not a conservative.) So it may well be that these general values statements which you think (erroneously!) imply conservatism will still earn high rates of approval in the future. But actual policy recommendations that are believed in by conservatives today will not.

 

[Foxfyre]

You'll have to read the book to understand I guess. It isn't based on the answer to 'a question' but is based on beliefs and concepts expressed by a broad segment (and majority) of American society.

Let me make this as clear and specific as possible. Within the next thirty years, no significant portion of the population will believe any of the following:

1) That income gaps should be anywhere near as wide as they are now.
2) That our interests as a nation are served by having an enormous military force stronger than the rest of the world's combined, or in an aggressive foreign policy making use of it.
3) That there is anything wrong with publicly-funded social welfare programs such as Social Security.
4) That a private, for-profit medical system with private, for-profit medical insurance is the best way to go.
5) That labor unions are an infringement on the rights of labor.
6) That corporations should be free to influence elections and/or the behavior of politicians by spending their money without limit to do so.

I like to break it down to specifics like this, because I find that when conservatives put up general values statements as "what we believe in," they tend to be things I believe in as well, but follow to completely different specific policy conclusions. (For example, I would have answered the question you presented earlier "yes" myself -- I would prefer to govern myself rather than be governed -- yet I am certainly not a conservative.) So it may well be that these general values statements which you think (erroneously!) imply conservatism will still earn high rates of approval in the future. But actual policy recommendations that are believed in by conservatives today will not.

Well, if you are right then the minority modern American liberals will have won. And we will have lost American exceptionalism and the Constitution as the Founders intended it. We will have lost our unalienable rights and will have joined the world of mostly stagnation and authoritarian government as is demonstrated in most of Europe and the world will be the poorer for it.

 

[Gadawg73]

The claims that conservatives allow corporations to speak for the individual on one end of the spectrum and claims that the liberal, progressive actions that were the foundation of this country did have it's power base and influence in religion in the colonial era on the other end of the spectrum are both untrue.
The truth is in the middle, as usual.

 

[Foxfyre]

The claims that conservatives allow corporations to speak for the individual on one end of the spectrum and claims that the liberal, progressive actions that were the foundation of this country did have it's power base and influence in religion in the colonial era on the other end of the spectrum are both untrue.
The truth is in the middle, as usual.

Well only the idiots, those of the liberals that are truly brainwashed, the uneducated, and the ideologues would claim that either are true. A modern American conservative wouldn't say that and wouldn't believe it.

That corporations are part of our free market system and a few operate unethically is a very different thing than saying corporations speak for the individual. To say that the Founders were guided by and put great importance on their religious faith and based their concepts of unalienable rights and therefore the Constitution on that faith is a very different thing than saying that religion formed the power base of the country. Influence yes and thank God that it did or we would not have American exceptionalism.

To this day, America stands alone among all nations on Earth grounded in the principle that our rights come from God and the proper function of government is to recognize and protect them. In every other nation, the government assigns whatever rights the people will have and can take them away as quickly as it assigns them. That is not freedom.

 

[Mr.Nick]

We ARE discussing what defines the Modern American Conservative or 21st Century American Conservative and the core beliefs among that group.

That group will cease to exist as a political force within the next few decades. It already has no traction with the Millennial generation. It will disappear simply because those who believe in it will grow old and die, and not be replaced.

There are plenty of young conservatives/Republicans...

The conservative party is moving more libertarian, however the Republican party was originally libertarian in the first place...

And make no mistake - you don't have to be a republican to be "conservative."

For example most blacks vote democrat and them strong majority of blacks would vote to ban homosexuality, Latinos too and a lot of them vote democrat...

Why do you think prop 8 failed in California - a notoriously democratic state?? Because the conservative blacks and latinos rejected the proposition despite being democrats....

 

[Gadawg73]

The claims that conservatives allow corporations to speak for the individual on one end of the spectrum and claims that the liberal, progressive actions that were the foundation of this country did have it's power base and influence in religion in the colonial era on the other end of the spectrum are both untrue.
The truth is in the middle, as usual.

Well only the idiots, those of the liberals that are truly brainwashed, the uneducated, and the ideologues would claim that either are true. A modern American conservative wouldn't say that and wouldn't believe it.

As a business owner for 32 years, active in a diverse community that is predominantly conservative and having coached over 50 rec teams over a 22 year period most things now are not defined as you define them as liberal versus conservative or us versus them mentality.
But it was different in the colonial era when the revolution was fought. The Founders were radicals of their time. They went against the established norms of society. They were the MINORITY as most of the colonies, especially in the south where most of the land owners opposed the revolution, did not support the revolution. Look at how broke the cause was and how much debt they ran up. The opposition to the revolution, the Torries in the colonies were the very religous folks of that era. Church doctrine was to answer to the monarcy as the monarchy gained their power from God through divine right.
To deny that is neither conservative nor liberal. To deny that is to deny the truth.

 

[Gadawg73]

The statments that rights come from God are all well and good and sound great.
But they do not mean a damn thing.
Go tell a judge after you are caught speeding that whopper and see what the judge does in every instance.
All of our rights come from THE LAW. Without the law, we are back in the days when the monarchies claimed that our rights come from God and God appointed them to dictate and enforce them.
God is not mentioned in any of our laws anywhere.
How could he be when God is many different things to many different religions.

 

[Dragon]

Well, if you are right then the minority modern American liberals will have won. And we will have lost American exceptionalism and the Constitution as the Founders intended it. We will have lost our unalienable rights and will have joined the world of mostly stagnation and authoritarian government as is demonstrated in most of Europe and the world will be the poorer for it.

I think this is absurd hyperbole, to be frank. Characterizing modern Europe as "mostly stagnation and authoritarian government" is nonsense. That abandonment of any or all of the six policy beliefs that I mentioned means we have "lost our unalienable rights" is sheer silliness. The only thing you mentioned in this post that we probably will lose is belief in "American exceptionalism," and it's about time, because we lost the reality of American exceptionalism as soon as democracy became the norm among advanced nations rather than the exception. There was a time, long ago, when the U.S. was a progressive nation, well ahead of the rest of the world, which remained mired in monarchy and aristocracy. But that hasn't been the case for a long time, and much of the advanced world has pulled ahead of us.

The founding spirit of this nation was liberal, after all, not conservative, and we were "exceptional" in that we were more advanced socially and culturally than poor backwards Europe. Now, after a long period of patting ourselves on the back and pretending this status was ordained, the reverse has become true.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well, if you are right then the minority modern American liberals will have won. And we will have lost American exceptionalism and the Constitution as the Founders intended it. We will have lost our unalienable rights and will have joined the world of mostly stagnation and authoritarian government as is demonstrated in most of Europe and the world will be the poorer for it.

I think this is absurd hyperbole, to be frank. Characterizing modern Europe as "mostly stagnation and authoritarian government" is nonsense. That abandonment of any or all of the six policy beliefs that I mentioned means we have "lost our unalienable rights" is sheer silliness. The only thing you mentioned in this post that we probably will lose is belief in "American exceptionalism," and it's about time, because we lost the reality of American exceptionalism as soon as democracy became the norm among advanced nations rather than the exception. There was a time, long ago, when the U.S. was a progressive nation, well ahead of the rest of the world, which remained mired in monarchy and aristocracy. But that hasn't been the case for a long time, and much of the advanced world has pulled ahead of us.

The founding spirit of this nation was liberal, after all, not conservative, and we were "exceptional" in that we were more advanced socially and culturally than poor backwards Europe. Now, after a long period of patting ourselves on the back and pretending this status was ordained, the reverse has become true.

The Founders were classical liberals, not modern day American liberals. The United States of America and its Constitution were founded on classical liberal principles, not modern day ones. If you don't know the difference you won't ever see the truth of that.

And yes, modern day liberals like yourself don't believe in American exceptionalism. You don't understand it probably. Can't wrap your mind around the concept.

Modern American conservatives do understand it and embrace it. It is the very foundation of recognition of and protection of unalienable rights. I am not surprised that you don't know that and/or don't see that. I believe such emptiness of vision is what defines our modern day liberals who I believe, at least the educated and/or intelligent ones, would not be liberals if they could see that and how destructive it is to fail to see that.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Well, if you are right then the minority modern American liberals will have won. And we will have lost American exceptionalism and the Constitution as the Founders intended it. We will have lost our unalienable rights and will have joined the world of mostly stagnation and authoritarian government as is demonstrated in most of Europe and the world will be the poorer for it.

I think this is absurd hyperbole, to be frank. Characterizing modern Europe as "mostly stagnation and authoritarian government" is nonsense. That abandonment of any or all of the six policy beliefs that I mentioned means we have "lost our unalienable rights" is sheer silliness. The only thing you mentioned in this post that we probably will lose is belief in "American exceptionalism," and it's about time, because we lost the reality of American exceptionalism as soon as democracy became the norm among advanced nations rather than the exception. There was a time, long ago, when the U.S. was a progressive nation, well ahead of the rest of the world, which remained mired in monarchy and aristocracy. But that hasn't been the case for a long time, and much of the advanced world has pulled ahead of us.

The founding spirit of this nation was liberal, after all, not conservative, and we were "exceptional" in that we were more advanced socially and culturally than poor backwards Europe. Now, after a long period of patting ourselves on the back and pretending this status was ordained, the reverse has become true.

WTF?

Europe has been the cultural center of the world since anyone paid any attention. American exceptionalism was built on our getting our hands dirty, not some cultural landmark. I consider the fact that anyone might argue we are more cultured than Europe a sign of how we are loosing our exceptionalism. Maybe if you got your head out of your ass you would see the same thing.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

WTF?

Europe has been the cultural center of the world since anyone paid any attention.

Actually Europe is the old liberal big government world. We saved their magnificent cultures from slaughtering each other through 2 world wars and recreated them in the image of our culture because there's was nothing but blood and gore big government liberalism. We still defend them, keep order, and invent 70% of the products they use in order to follow us through modernity. To suggest that big government Nazis, liberals, and socialists, are the cultural center of the world is beyond absurd but perfectly liberal. Perhaps with a little tweaking Hitler or King George or Napoleon cold have gotten their liberal governments to work better- right??

Big government naturally make war on each other and on their own citizens. Obama's class war is just another manifestation of it. Without an enemy to demonize , tax and steal from, and conquer liberalism has no purpose.

In contrast a conservatives only fight is with those who want power over others.

 

[Gadawg73]

WTF?

Europe has been the cultural center of the world since anyone paid any attention.

Actually Europe is the old liberal big government world. We saved their magnificent cultures from slaughtering each other through 2 world wars and recreated them in the image of our culture because there's was nothing but blood and gore big government liberalism. We still defend them, keep order, and invent 70% of the products they use in order to follow us through modernity. To suggest that big government Nazis, liberals, and socialists, are the cultural center of the world is beyond absurd but perfectly liberal. Perhaps with a little tweaking Hitler or King George or Napoleon cold have gotten their liberal governments to work better- right??

Big government naturally make war on each other and on their own citizens. Obama's class war is just another manifestation of it. Without an enemy to demonize , tax and steal from, and conquer liberalism has no purpose.

In contrast a conservatives only fight is with those who want power over others.

Maybe is as is in NOW but when the Founders kicked the Brits ass the monarchs of Europe were as old school oppressors of anyone other than the power base which was anyone and everyone IN RELIGION AND THE MONARCHY.
Religion and the monarchy which took power away from the people and denied them their rights was propped up and supported by RELIGION in all the European nations when our country was founded.

 

[Foxfyre]

WTF?

Europe has been the cultural center of the world since anyone paid any attention.

Actually Europe is the old liberal big government world. We saved their magnificent cultures from slaughtering each other through 2 world wars and recreated them in the image of our culture because there's was nothing but blood and gore big government liberalism. We still defend them, keep order, and invent 70% of the products they use in order to follow us through modernity. To suggest that big government Nazis, liberals, and socialists, are the cultural center of the world is beyond absurd but perfectly liberal. Perhaps with a little tweaking Hitler or King George or Napoleon cold have gotten their liberal governments to work better- right??

Big government naturally make war on each other and on their own citizens. Obama's class war is just another manifestation of it. Without an enemy to demonize , tax and steal from, and conquer liberalism has no purpose.

In contrast a conservatives only fight is with those who want power over others.

Maybe is as is in NOW but when the Founders kicked the Brits ass the monarchs of Europe were as old school oppressors of anyone other than the power base which was anyone and everyone IN RELIGION AND THE MONARCHY.
Religion and the monarchy which took power away from the people and denied them their rights was propped up and supported by RELIGION in all the European nations when our country was founded.

I know you hate anything religious Gadawg, but please don't be one of the intellectually dishonest who tries to pretend that the Founders believed as you do. The Founders did NOT object to religion or Christian faith--almost to a man they embraced it, cherished it, promoted it, and believed it necessary for the success of the United States. What they objected to was a corrupt authoritarian Church of England who, in tandem with the Monarchy, suppressed religious and personal freedoms. The Constitution was intended to allow complete religious and personal freedom unhampered by an authoritarian federal government.

 

[Dragon]

The Founders were classical liberals, not modern day American liberals. The United States of America and its Constitution were founded on classical liberal principles, not modern day ones. If you don't know the difference you won't ever see the truth of that.

There is no difference in principle between the two. Those conservatives who think there is are confusing ends and means. Liberalism is now and always has been about equality, about serving the interests of the many instead of the few, about protecting the liberty of ordinary people against oppression by the rich and powerful. "Classical" liberals as you call them often focused on the government as the main tool by which the rich and powerful oppressed ordinary people, hence your confusion.

Actually, liberals still oppose oppression by the government. But there is now a greater willingness to use government itself to restrain oppression by private power. And yet even back then, this was not unheard of among liberals; I refer you to Jefferson's letter to Madison while he was serving as ambassador to France, in which he spoke movingly of the great inequality of wealth he saw, and certain taxation and free-land measures that he thought might prevent its occurrence in the United States.

 

[Foxfyre]

The Founders were classical liberals, not modern day American liberals. The United States of America and its Constitution were founded on classical liberal principles, not modern day ones. If you don't know the difference you won't ever see the truth of that.

There is no difference in principle between the two. Those conservatives who think there is are confusing ends and means. Liberalism is now and always has been about equality, about serving the interests of the many instead of the few, about protecting the liberty of ordinary people against oppression by the rich and powerful. "Classical" liberals as you call them often focused on the government as the main tool by which the rich and powerful oppressed ordinary people, hence your confusion.

Actually, liberals still oppose oppression by the government. But there is now a greater willingness to use government itself to restrain oppression by private power. And yet even back then, this was not unheard of among liberals; I refer you to Jefferson's letter to Madison while he was serving as ambassador to France, in which he spoke movingly of the great inequality of wealth he saw, and certain taxation and free-land measures that he thought might prevent its occurrence in the United States.

You sir are badly misinformed. No difference?

Classical liberals wanted and want a central government that secures our rights and then leaves us strictly alone to govern ourselves and live our lives as we choose individually and/or collectively.

Modern day liberals want a strong central government that defines and assigns our rights and that orders society and provides for it.

The difference is self governance (classical liberalism aka modern day American conservatism) versus being governed (old style conservatism aka modern day American liberalism.)

Classical liberals believe in the sanctity of property rights and the unalienable right of a person to pursue life, liberty, and happiness whatever that means to him or her short of violating the rights of somebody else.

Modern day liberals believe in the collective, that it is right and good for the government to take what the rich earn or possess and give it to those who have less.

Classical liberals understand how corrupting it is to those in government and to those who are the beneficiaries of government largesse when the government is allowed to dispense any form of charity.

Modern day liberals do not trust their fellow man to do the right thing in matters of charity and look to the government as Big Brother, Source of all Benevolence, Benefactor to all ion need, etc. etc. etc.'

Classical liberals understand and promote a free market as the best hope of all to rise above the circumstances they were born into and want regulation only as necessary to prevent people from violating the rights of others or preventing honest competition.

Modern day liberals look to the government as the agent to change the circumstances people are born into, who resent the self made rich, successful, and economically powerful, and in effect look to government to restrain some of the success and reward the less successful.

I could go on and on and on, but obviously any who would think there is no difference beween cllassical liberalism and modern day American liberalism are either hopelessly uneducated/misinformed and/or extremely naive and/or intentionally dishonest. Take your pick.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Actually Europe is the old liberal big government world. We saved their magnificent cultures from slaughtering each other through 2 world wars and recreated them in the image of our culture because there's was nothing but blood and gore big government liberalism. We still defend them, keep order, and invent 70% of the products they use in order to follow us through modernity. To suggest that big government Nazis, liberals, and socialists, are the cultural center of the world is beyond absurd but perfectly liberal. Perhaps with a little tweaking Hitler or King George or Napoleon cold have gotten their liberal governments to work better- right??

Big government naturally make war on each other and on their own citizens. Obama's class war is just another manifestation of it. Without an enemy to demonize , tax and steal from, and conquer liberalism has no purpose.

In contrast a conservatives only fight is with those who want power over others.

Maybe is as is in NOW but when the Founders kicked the Brits ass the monarchs of Europe were as old school oppressors of anyone other than the power base which was anyone and everyone IN RELIGION AND THE MONARCHY.
Religion and the monarchy which took power away from the people and denied them their rights was propped up and supported by RELIGION in all the European nations when our country was founded.

I know you hate anything religious Gadawg, but please don't be one of the intellectually dishonest who tries to pretend that the Founders believed as you do. The Founders did NOT object to religion or Christian faith--almost to a man they embraced it, cherished it, promoted it, and believed it necessary for the success of the United States. What they objected to was a corrupt authoritarian Church of England who, in tandem with the Monarchy, suppressed religious and personal freedoms. The Constitution was intended to allow complete religious and personal freedom unhampered by an authoritarian federal government.

"The Founders did NOT object to religion or Christian faith--almost to a man they embraced it, cherished it, promoted it, and believed it necessary for the success of the United States." Link please.

I'm under the impression Deism was the belief of the intelligent elite who lead the revolution and had been soured by the negative influence of organized religions and the wars which were a product of them.

 

[Gadawg73]

Actually Europe is the old liberal big government world. We saved their magnificent cultures from slaughtering each other through 2 world wars and recreated them in the image of our culture because there's was nothing but blood and gore big government liberalism. We still defend them, keep order, and invent 70% of the products they use in order to follow us through modernity. To suggest that big government Nazis, liberals, and socialists, are the cultural center of the world is beyond absurd but perfectly liberal. Perhaps with a little tweaking Hitler or King George or Napoleon cold have gotten their liberal governments to work better- right??

Big government naturally make war on each other and on their own citizens. Obama's class war is just another manifestation of it. Without an enemy to demonize , tax and steal from, and conquer liberalism has no purpose.

In contrast a conservatives only fight is with those who want power over others.

Maybe is as is in NOW but when the Founders kicked the Brits ass the monarchs of Europe were as old school oppressors of anyone other than the power base which was anyone and everyone IN RELIGION AND THE MONARCHY.
Religion and the monarchy which took power away from the people and denied them their rights was propped up and supported by RELIGION in all the European nations when our country was founded.

I know you hate anything religious Gadawg, but please don't be one of the intellectually dishonest who tries to pretend that the Founders believed as you do. The Founders did NOT object to religion or Christian faith--almost to a man they embraced it, cherished it, promoted it, and believed it necessary for the success of the United States. What they objected to was a corrupt authoritarian Church of England who, in tandem with the Monarchy, suppressed religious and personal freedoms. The Constitution was intended to allow complete religious and personal freedom unhampered by an authoritarian federal government.

As usual, your emotion gets the best of you and you post fabrications and untruths.
I do not hate anything religous as I am a believer.
Where have I ever stated the Founders OBJECTED to religion?
What I find amazing is your denial that the Church of England, the Anglican church, WAS THE CHURCH THE MAJORITY OF THE FOUNDERS WERE MEMBERS OF.
Before the revolution.
Over 120,000 colonists left America, or the better description is they were run off because of their continuous support of the Anglican church support of the Torries.
The religous folk of the day were against the Founders and their revolution. They had to be as brewing one's distilled spirits without a tithe to the church of the profits, smuggling all forms of commodities without a tithe to the church of of the profits and no tithe to the church from the profits of the sale of slaves offended the Torries.
You do know that the Founders objected to paying a tithe to their churches on those sales, don't you?
And why was that?
Fact is you and many others that play Christian victim can not take your blinders off when undisputable facts are given to you without labeling anyone and everyone that disagrees with you as "anti Christian", "haters of anything religous" and other untruths.
Why?
Because you have no facts whatsoever to back up any of your claims.

 

[Gadawg73]

Fox claims that the church of England as the only monarchy that virtually ran their country. Fact is the colonists here came from all of the European countries and everyone of them had monarchies propped up by the church.
It is a fraud to teach anyone that the Founders embraced religous influences in our government. They were scared shitless of the church and their influences in EVERY government they had ever known or seen ever.
As evidenced by The Constitution which is THE LAW.