Wealthy people can afford better healthcare

[bill5]

I believe everyone should have access to quality healthcare. And it should be affordable.

Me too. Unfortunately there's this little thing called reality which makes this rather impossible. That's why the insurance biz exists.

What we have now is not affordable for many. Nobody should have to live in debt because of an illness. My theory? If you owe $100,000 in care? Pay $30 a month.

...at which rate you'll have it paid off in a little over 275 years.

 

[rdean]

Republicans don't need health care because they are "self sufficient" and they "pray".

 

[bill5]

YAYYY let's digress yet another thread here into a wingnut cat fight! The left sucks! No wait the right sucks! Bush! Obama! Tea Party! There's my opinion and the wrong one! My side is always right! Yours is always wrong! blah! etc! blah!

 

[Disir]

Wealthy people can afford better healthcare. That is a truism.

No matter where you are in the world that is so.

My question is for people who support universal/government health care ... is there a limit for you in what you would make available to everybody. There are always going to be expensive procedures which wealthy people can afford but which poorer people don't have access to, right?

If wealthy people can afford it, do you think the populace should be taxed until we've all somehow given enough so that everyone can have it?



I guess I'm in favor of "death panels" so-to-speak. (That was very unfortunate language which my side chose to use about something which I think would have to exist.) There has to be an upper limit on the level of care which is considered universal. There are all sorts of exotic and expensive treatments which could be available but we just can't afford to do it for everyone.



I know this is an old conversation for most of you. I haven't really given much thought to universal healthcare. I've basically been against it on general small-government and "we can't afford everything" principles since the 1980's.

My mother died of complications to a liver transplant and it was all so very expensive that for myself I thought I would choose no transplant if it ever came to that for me. But as I get older ... and as my husband gets older ... I view some things differently.


So ... if you are generally inclined toward some sort of universal / government health care, I'd like to know what it means to you. How great of care you think should be universal and what your sense of the limitations are.




So please humor me. If this subject is boring to you, pass by it. If you have something worthwhile to add, I'd appreciate it.

People make this decision every day. There are many people that have cancer that have to decide if it is worth it to through another round of chemo. We don't have a lot of exotic treatments. We aren't asking for access to woo-ville. There are many diseases that hit a stage when the best that can be done is to keep someone from living in pain.

Insurance companies are death panels. They have decided who gets treatment, when they get treatment, how they get treatment and IF they get treatment. Even now, there is a problem with some companies that do not pay on time which forces doctors to refuse to deal with you or make it such a pain in the neck because of what they do not do so that you don't go.

Even prior to our current financial woes, we had an underemployment problem. Many places use underemployment as a tactic to avoid paying crappy insurance. So, if you have someone that is working 2 or more jobs just to make rent then they are going to pay full price to walk into a clinic. That's between 80-120 bucks a shot. BUT, they can't afford the tests or the medication. This means that many people wait until they are in such pain that they wind up in the emergency room. Further, it is usually the only place open that you can get in after hours.

I think that the US has one of the best medical response systems (in some locations) in the world but when we are dealing with preventative care it is, hands down, horrible.

This is where we stand. Either we can get the medical care here or open up the borders enough so that we can buy the prescription drugs that we need in other countries and get medical care there. That might include lowering transportation costs for the rest of us to participate in the medical tourism. BUT, it does not solve the problems in nursing homes or long term care facilities. It does not address mental health care. At this point, it is like being held hostage.

I think that most cosmetic surgeries should not be covered. I think that there should be exceptions to this rule though as well. If someone wants a face lift because it makes them feel better than no, I'm not so much about that. If someone's face is marred by a clown that threw something on their face or was in a wreck then cosmetic surgery would be a good thing. If someone needs/wants a surgery, like the one with the stomach band, which will reduce weight then the long term health benefits will probably be beneficial.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

Insurance companies are death panels. They have decided who gets treatment, when they get treatment, how they get treatment and IF they get treatment.

Yes. This is the correct use of the term. Not what it actually referenced.

 

[Amelia]

Any kind of assessment about whether treatment would be affordable could amount to a 'death panel'. And costs have to be considered. That's why I objected to the phrase being used to begin with.


But I recoil at the thought of any panel composed of government bureaucrats. Bureaucrats are my nightmare.




Sorry ... feeling a little defensive about that DP language ... still welcoming the POV of people for universal/government healthcare.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

the point of what was misnamed "death panel" was compensating doctors to actually spend time talking to their patients about what they want for end of life care. There was no "panel" at all, except for the patient making informed decisions when having an open conversation about end of life care with their doctor. IF the patient asked about price, they could decide for themselves, but the point wasn't about discussing prices so much as end of life wishes. Because most people don't know what it means to get CPR on a practical level.

 

[Katzndogz]

the point of what was misnamed "death panel" was compensating doctors to actually spend time talking to their patients about what they want for end of life care. There was no "panel" at all, except for the patient making informed decisions when having an open conversation about end of life care with their doctor. IF the patient asked about price, they could decide for themselves, but the point wasn't about discussing prices so much as end of life wishes. Because most people don't know what it means to get CPR on a practical level.

It was really to pay doctors to persuade patients to forego medical care late in life and save the money. It was right out of Cass Sunstein's cost/benefit evaluation of medical care playbook.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

the point of what was misnamed "death panel" was compensating doctors to actually spend time talking to their patients about what they want for end of life care. There was no "panel" at all, except for the patient making informed decisions when having an open conversation about end of life care with their doctor. IF the patient asked about price, they could decide for themselves, but the point wasn't about discussing prices so much as end of life wishes. Because most people don't know what it means to get CPR on a practical level.

It was really to pay doctors to persuade patients to forego medical care late in life and save the money. It was right out of Cass Sunstein's cost/benefit evaluation of medical care playbook.

no. no not at all. clearly you are uninformed. if that was the point, why don't doctors do that now? there's nothing stopping a doctor from persuading their patient to forgo treatment. In fact, there's nothing stopping doctors from just DENYING care outright if they disagree with a patient's decision, thus "saving the money". This is dumb reasoning from people who don't understand the medical field whatsoever.

Meanwhile, people die on ventilators against their wishes, or life saving treatment is withheld from easily treated conditions because the patient never talked to their doctor about what these things mean!

Do you know? Can you tell me what "comfort measures only" entails? Or what ventilator support means to quality of life? I'm not even asking cost, I'm asking if you know what these things mean.

 

[rdean]

YAYYY let's digress yet another thread here into a wingnut cat fight! The left sucks! No wait the right sucks! Bush! Obama! Tea Party! There's my opinion and the wrong one! My side is always right! Yours is always wrong! blah! etc! blah!

Unfortunately, for the last 30 years, Republicans have wrong about everything. That's why whatever they've touched has turned to shit. We've asked them for some success at something, and they can't come up with a single thing.

If they were honest, they would say, "We've made the richest Americans richer than they've ever been. We've done a great jobs of helping them protect their wealth". Because of Republican policies, the 12 largest American companies pay no tax and we've helped them move millions of jobs to China."

 

[bill5]

lmao

Well at least you're consistent. Brilliant "it's all the other side's fault" stuff there. They're responsible for bad breath, El Nino, and the Red Sox' late-season collapse too, aint they? Bastages!

 

[Disir]

We have the money.

How much charity does a not-for profit hospital have to claim to make them tax exempt?

They don't pay property taxes. This means that *I* have to cover what they don't pay. Well, I and everyone else in this area. Further, they often receive my tax dollars at the local, state and federal level.

In 2004, we saw two whistle blowers, Dr. John Bagnato and Charles Rebergh, come to the front to expose how this works. They were also able to show that people without insurance payed way more than people with insurance.
The Provocateur: Blowing the Whistle: The Retaliation Against Charles Rehberg and Dr. John Bagnato

Here is information on a documentary
Do No Harm

Problems come in when you try to track the money.
How Do Hospitals Get Paid? A Primer - NYTimes.com

I think we found it.
Hospital CEO pay has some ill at ease  | ajc.com


When people talk about Bureaucrats, they generally refer to the elected officials. Elections come and go but the people that do the actual running of the show ride out those storms. All of that "red tape" forces people to be accountable.

Too, how much money was spent in lobbying to keep accountability from happening?

My problem with this whole deal is that people want me to just stand there and maintain the status quo so that we as tax payers continue to get ripped off and at the same time accept blame for all of the above problems. Or blame it on all of the working poor.

Nonsense. We have the money.

 

[Meister]

I think the rich rat bastards should pay for our healthcare.

 

[syrenn]

I think the rich rat bastards should pay for our healthcare.

Yeah... fuck them...they can afford it.

 

[Meister]

I think the rich rat bastards should pay for our healthcare.

Yeah... fuck them...they can afford it.

Damn straight, lady.

 

[syrenn]

I think the rich rat bastards should pay for our healthcare.

Yeah... fuck them...they can afford it.

Damn straight, lady.

Well shit, while we are at it..... i want a house too! I sure cant afford it...but they sure can.

 

[Meister]

Yeah... fuck them...they can afford it.

Damn straight, lady.

Well shit, while we are at it..... i want a house too! I sure cant afford it...but they sure can.

Point well taken. If you had a lower mortgage because the rich supplemented the other part of your mortgage...I'm sure you could afford a house.

 

[syrenn]

Damn straight, lady.

Well shit, while we are at it..... i want a house too! I sure cant afford it...but they sure can.

Point well taken. If you had a lower mortgage because the rich supplemented the other part of your mortgage...I'm sure you could afford a house.

Damn straight! Its all their fault i want more then i can afford! If THEY didnt have it...i would not know i want it!!!

 

[Meister]

By the end of the month my bank account is low, I don't think that's right.

 

[syrenn]

By the end of the month my bank account is low, I don't think that's right.

Its not fair! They have plenty to share. Come on...all they have to do is give up a vacation or to for me. I dont think that is to much to ask.

And damn... that is a hot pair of shoes that rich women has... I want a pair too!