We’re number 37! USA USA USA!!

[jillian]

I have the pig on ignore, but why do I get the impression the Cesspit has just had a fit??

I you are serious about this.....

newbie troll comes in halfway into a conversation, which he has not bothered to read, about some very bad statistics that have been shown to be dishonest from an organization notorious for its dishonesty. He proclaims that the statistics are cool, and people who won't act on them stupid. Cecille, who has been down this path many times before, give snarky response about idiots who swallow anything without question as long as it serves their agenda. Newbie Troll calls Cecille idiot for not believing his proven to be bogus statistics. especially since they came from this organization that no rational person believes anyway.The fact that they assert what he wants is proof enough for him. Cecille responds with many posts in succession using intemperate language about newbie troll's bad debating manners, dishonesty, and stupidity.

I don't think Cecille has any flying monkeys, but if she did, this guy would be in real trouble.

ummm...darlin', grump has been on this board far longer than either you or the wicked witch psycho troll.

much as i like you, the freak is indefensible...grump is dead on about her. and a relative newbie calling a long-time, respected member a newby might want to check his join date.

just sayin'

 

[jillian]

Once again RETARD, what got us to 37 is bullshit procedures and standards.

What got us to #37 is an indifferent attitude. We let our coverage be determined by employers, we allowed insurance companies to determine what we can and cannot receive, we refused to encourage competition, we allowed healtcare to have 30% overhead, we setup a system where basic healthcare is performed in emergency rooms, we discourage early diagnosis and treatment and we have priced it out of the reach of millions of Americans

We got what we deserved

37 based on what? You still can't or won't answer that question.

look up the criteria.

 

[sole survivor]

Health care in the US is free for those in need. This is the left crying wolf to advance their agenda.

 

[jillian]

Health care in the US is free for those in need. This is the left crying wolf to advance their agenda.

do you know anything about this issue?

 

[editec]

According to the Constitution, the government is responsible for funding the military. There is nothing in it or it's amendments that discusses providing health insurance for the citizenry.

That being said, I do believe we should not be in Iraq or Afghanistan and should pull all of our troops that are not stateside and bring them home (This includes Germany, Japan, and South Korea).

-TSO

Another good argument for having a constitutional convention to bring that document moire in align with the 21st century.

 

[jillian]

According to the Constitution, the government is responsible for funding the military. There is nothing in it or it's amendments that discusses providing health insurance for the citizenry.

That being said, I do believe we should not be in Iraq or Afghanistan and should pull all of our troops that are not stateside and bring them home (This includes Germany, Japan, and South Korea).

-TSO

Another good argument for having a constitutional convention to bring that document moire in align with the 21st century.

not really. that's what the general welfare clause is for.

 

[sole survivor]

As a Psych major I wrote my thesis replicating this study. Under strict guidance of a PHD I was forced to lie and manipulate the numbers to mirror previous findings of academics and their agenda.

I know more about this subject than you ever will

Health care in the US is free for those in need. This is the left crying wolf to advance their agenda.

do you know anything about this issue?

 

[editec]

To assert that comparing morbity and mortality stats between nations is fraught with problems is undoubtably true.

But to dismiss these findings as therefore entirely specious, is nonsense, too.

Can we agree that given the aggregate amount of money we spend on HC, we''re not getting our money's worth?

If we did a cost analysis of HC spending, we wouldn't be 37th.

We'd be DEAD LAST.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

I have the pig on ignore, but why do I get the impression the Cesspit has just had a fit??

I you are serious about this.....

newbie troll comes in halfway into a conversation, which he has not bothered to read, about some very bad statistics that have been shown to be dishonest from an organization notorious for its dishonesty. He proclaims that the statistics are cool, and people who won't act on them stupid. Cecille, who has been down this path many times before, give snarky response about idiots who swallow anything without question as long as it serves their agenda. Newbie Troll calls Cecille idiot for not believing his proven to be bogus statistics. especially since they came from this organization that no rational person believes anyway.The fact that they assert what he wants is proof enough for him. Cecille responds with many posts in succession using intemperate language about newbie troll's bad debating manners, dishonesty, and stupidity.

I don't think Cecille has any flying monkeys, but if she did, this guy would be in real trouble.

ummm...darlin', grump has been on this board far longer than either you or the wicked witch psycho troll.

much as i like you, the freak is indefensible...grump is dead on about her. and a relative newbie calling a long-time, respected member a newby might want to check his join date.

just sayin'

I am not calling him on his newbie trollishness. We all go through that. And I am sure the good grump has been around the block a few times herself...
but we have been around the block with these numbers, and and around and around and around. And this guy jumps in the middle as if this a new revelation.

the converstation has been
"Bogus numbers which mean sqaut.... therefore, lets do something stupid!"
"Those numbers are bogus because of reasons A, B C.... x, y, z, A',B', C'....YYY,ZZZ""Bogus numbers which mean sqaut.... therefore, lets do something stupid!"
Those numbers are useless, as we said before
"Bogus numbers which mean sqaut.... therefore, lets do something stupid!"
"Again, those numbers have been cooked so hard they are burnt on the edges"
"Bogus numbers which mean sqaut.... therefore, lets do something stupid!"
"Enough with the numbers, which are as honest as you are! #@##"
"Bogus numbers which mean sqaut.... therefore, lets do something stupid!"
"Can you please address the issue of how these number have any relation to reality?
"Bogus numbers which mean sqaut.... therefore, lets do something stupid!"
"Look, we have already pointed out that your assertion is wrong for reasons A to Z. Can you demonstrate any validity to the number you are giving us"
"Bogus numbers which mean sqaut.... These numbers are sourced and vouched for by an organization known to be inimical to our interests and also known for its dishonesty and bad statistics, therefore, lets do something stupid!"
"Your numbers come from an organization known to be inimical to our interests and also known for its dishonesty and bad statistics. Why should we give them any credence? and the numbers are wrong here, here and here."
"Typical Republican tactic to attack the messenger. Bogus numbers which mean sqaut.... therefore, lets do something stupid!"

So the new guy comes in with this brand new and never heard before argument: "Bogus numbers which mean sqaut.... therefore, lets do something stupid!"

This whole #37 thing is like one of those punching dolls. the more you knock it over, the more it comes back up again.

Bad numbers from a dishonest organization are unacceptable in an honest debate. Continuos trips to that poison well do not add light to the discussion, only fury.

 

[jillian]

grump is a he.

the numbers are not fallacious. the justifications for ignoring them are.

cesspool is a disgusting arrogant freak who's never made a valid argument in it's life. and anything it has said is so full of vituperation, it's valueless.

and if you weren't calling grump a newby troll, it wasn't clear from your post.

and the argument keeps going 'round and 'round because the right wants to keep ignoring the fact that we pay twice as much per capita for less healthcare than any other civilized nation. and if we don't fix it, then we will be putting 50 cents of every dollar of our GDP into health care within 10 years.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

We have gone over how they are bad over and over again. Have you checked? The numbers actually invert for positive outcomes in hospital care.

They use bogus starting numbers, the numbers are not comparable, numbers related to actual care are weighted just a little more than a third. The numbers given the highest weights are essentially just pulled out of their ass. (The equity thing) and they are saying that the degree to which health care is nationalized it a criteria in arguing that health care should be nationalized, and that is one of the high weights as well. So even if we had perfect outcomes (which we don't, ) that would be a huge slap in the numbers. Such recursive arguing should knock this out of court from the very beginning. It is essentially proof of guilt because the cop arrested you.
the only real useful number is the first one, which is life expectancy. Not good for our side, but agin inside those numbers are things that don't compare to other countries. Partly our homicide rate, partly due to the fact we smoked more than anyone else, and partly to the fact we like deep fat fried everything along with monster size portions. Even going so far as to have places that offer deep fat fried cheese and pickles. So the life expectancy numbers are life style things more than health care things.
Only 12% of the ranking comes from actual ranking of care at medical facilities. How can we get a rational number about quality of health care when that is one of the least important things this thing measures?

The measure of "fairness" means that everyone gets treated equally badly. That is not a quality measure. And the degree of government control is not a measure of quality of anything. Even in areas where government is supposed to shine, government control of it is counterindicative of quality.

So, we have measures that are done very differently, are reflective of social issues outside the discussion as one big measure, actual health care outcomes as a small measure, and one piece of total subjectivity as a major portion, one piece of recursive special pleading as a major portion, and you want to say that "the numbers are not fallacious. the justifications for ignoring them are."

I have to differ on that.

 

[WillowTree]

Based on surveys from each of the 193 member countries, on specific topics, illnesses and demographic date collected. Google the World Health Organization if you really care about the criteria.

The fact remains, the US, based on whatever criteria, is number 37. Rather than attack the messenger (WHO) a thinking, caring, intelligent, non-partisan would ask why? And, it goes without saying, but I will, that those who attack the messenger are non thinkers, uncaring, not too bright and wholly partisan.

so you of course will excape this shithole and go to country number uno,, for your health care?? I applaud you..

Of course not. My wife and I are in fine financial shape, and we have comprehensive health care which includes meds and very, very modest co-pays.
The fact WT is that the cost for health care in our nation has become a burden for business and government, too much of our GDP goes to too few; too many Americans suffer needlessly and too little preventative care is available to the working poor.

but but but if you are in fine finanacial shape why would you elect to stay and get your health care in shithole number 37? you are perhaps suicidal?

 

[jillian]

gone over?

yes, the right has deflected. not a single person on the right has addressed the actual issue.

sorry, kiddo.

this one's a major fail for the right because the right pretends the U.S. 'has the best healthcare in the world' without regard a) to whether it is true; and b) who is able to obtain that health care.

A country where 50% of bankruptcies are the result of unanticipated health care costs (largely among people who already HAVE health insurance) does NOT have the 'best healthcare in the world', no matter if I can afford to write my doctor a $600 check for my annual mammogram and sonogram, for which my insurance company reimburses me about $50.

 

[jillian]

so you of course will excape this shithole and go to country number uno,, for your health care?? I applaud you..

Of course not. My wife and I are in fine financial shape, and we have comprehensive health care which includes meds and very, very modest co-pays.
The fact WT is that the cost for health care in our nation has become a burden for business and government, too much of our GDP goes to too few; too many Americans suffer needlessly and too little preventative care is available to the working poor.

but but but if you are in fine finanacial shape why would you elect to stay and get your health care in shithole number 37? you are perhaps suicidal?

if you can AFFORD it, the doctors are terrific. Now go trying to pay for one if heaven forbid you have an unanticipated illness... or your insurance company drops you after diagnosis and you can't get new coverage because of a pre-existing condition.

are you intentionally not absorbing that?

 

[WillowTree]

gone over?

yes, the right has deflected. not a single person on the right has addressed the actual issue.

sorry, kiddo.

this one's a major fail for the right because the right pretends the U.S. 'has the best healthcare in the world' without regard a) to whether it is true; and b) who is able to obtain that health care.

A country where 50% of bankruptcies are the result of unanticipated health care costs (largely among people who already HAVE health insurance) does NOT have the 'best healthcare in the world', no matter if I can afford to write my doctor a $600 check for my annual mammogram and sonogram, for which my insurance company reimburses me about $50.

I'm askin. If it is true and we are shitty number 37, why would anybody who is well off financially not go elesewhere for their healthcare. and I'm asking why did that wandering canadian dude sprint down here for his heart surgery?? He had 36 better places to choose from didn't he?

 

[WillowTree]

Of course not. My wife and I are in fine financial shape, and we have comprehensive health care which includes meds and very, very modest co-pays.
The fact WT is that the cost for health care in our nation has become a burden for business and government, too much of our GDP goes to too few; too many Americans suffer needlessly and too little preventative care is available to the working poor.

but but but if you are in fine finanacial shape why would you elect to stay and get your health care in shithole number 37? you are perhaps suicidal?

if you can AFFORD it, the doctors are terrific. Now go trying to pay for one if heaven forbid you have an unanticipated illness... or your insurance company drops you after diagnosis and you can't get new coverage because of a pre-existing condition.

are you intentionally not absorbing that?

I am absorbing this. entirely.

 

[jillian]

but but but if you are in fine finanacial shape why would you elect to stay and get your health care in shithole number 37? you are perhaps suicidal?

if you can AFFORD it, the doctors are terrific. Now go trying to pay for one if heaven forbid you have an unanticipated illness... or your insurance company drops you after diagnosis and you can't get new coverage because of a pre-existing condition.

are you intentionally not absorbing that?

I am absorbing this. entirely.

y'okie dokie;

 

[CMike]

What got us to #37 is an indifferent attitude. We let our coverage be determined by employers, we allowed insurance companies to determine what we can and cannot receive, we refused to encourage competition, we allowed healtcare to have 30% overhead, we setup a system where basic healthcare is performed in emergency rooms, we discourage early diagnosis and treatment and we have priced it out of the reach of millions of Americans

We got what we deserved

37 based on what? You still can't or won't answer that question.

look up the criteria.

It's your side making this claim.

It's really funny, that your side is ready to accept that america is 37th in healthcare, but your side doesn't even bother to find out what it's based on.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM]YouTube - Funniest Movie Line Ever[/ame]

 

[CMike]

Of course not. My wife and I are in fine financial shape, and we have comprehensive health care which includes meds and very, very modest co-pays.
The fact WT is that the cost for health care in our nation has become a burden for business and government, too much of our GDP goes to too few; too many Americans suffer needlessly and too little preventative care is available to the working poor.

but but but if you are in fine finanacial shape why would you elect to stay and get your health care in shithole number 37? you are perhaps suicidal?

if you can AFFORD it, the doctors are terrific. Now go trying to pay for one if heaven forbid you have an unanticipated illness... or your insurance company drops you after diagnosis and you can't get new coverage because of a pre-existing condition.

are you intentionally not absorbing that?

This is going to be really weird, but I actually agree with you this.

There are major problems in our health care system. I completely disagree with the government takeover approach and I think it will make it much worse.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

That is a fairness issue, take that up with Gd.

As for medical care... France is notoriouis for giving thousands of patients AIDS. Russia and the Eastern block for many years viewed the same illness as primarily a pediatric problem because of the issue of shared needles.

I did a tour of a Soviet hospistal in the early 90-'s. I don't think things have gotten better in most areas since then, I am sure the issue of shared needles (I saw their sanitary practices... needles just pilled in baskets waiting for cooking in a large bucket over a regular gas stove. they were just told them to cook them for a set time, and not to worry if the water boiled or not) has gone away, but the nature of the wards and the overloading of staff is probably as bad as ever.

Medical care here is a matter of high prices (Mostly imposed by government mandate irrespective of utility) and quick service.

In the rest of the world, it is a matter of long waits, (In British Columbia they actually managed to get waits for obstetric care to 10 months. I have no idea how they did that. That was supposedly a government number, not something from the Onion) overloaded staff, huge bureaucracy, lack of equipment, (That mammogram you get is available everywhere here, for a price. In canada, they have limited numbers of MRI machines, and if you aren't one of the lucky ones on a special list, you do without) and huge taxes.

The point to a Mammogram is early detection. They see something, you are on the table for a biopsy here the same week. Mammograms in Canada are pointless. Even if they saw something, the way the wait lists work and the rate of progress of the disease, in Canada you would die before they around to getting you a biopsy. Here, you would be checked, biopsied, have your operation, get your new prosthetic ones installed and be on your way to a long and productive life in short order. It would cost a bunch, but a lot of the costs aren't medical care related, but related to all the other stupidities that raise costs here. In Canada, you saved a bunch of money on medicine your family can spend on your funeral.