Washing machines/dryers prices up 17% under Trump (thank you, tariffs)

[Flash]

Then why do over 98% of Americans make $9.00/hour?
I was on Wall Street in the early 80s.
Reagan started fixing the economy to exclude minorities.
Now we have an albatross around our necks...a very expensive albatross.

I am hoping Trump's vision of bringing jobs and opportunities back to the US pays off.

...... wut? 98% of Americans make $9.00/hour? Are you crazy?

Barely 15% of Americans make $9/hour or less.

Middle-class Americans made more money last year than ever before

The median income in $57K. Who did you let mess you up in the head?

And how did Reagan 'exclude' minorities? Do tell which specific law, excluded minorities. Are you nuts?

I was going to post the reference showing that the average American makes about $25 an hour but his/her/its post was so stupid I decided to not even bother. You can't fix stupidity like that.

Average?
You mean the ones who live in LA, Detroit and NYC and make $9.00/hour.
I hate Rush Limbaugh rolled up statistics.

You are really confused.

Here are the BLS stats: (hint: it ain't $9/hr you moron)

This is the average for about 130 million employed Americans.

Table B-3. Average hourly and weekly earnings of all employees on private nonfarm payrolls by industry sector, seasonally adjusted

May
2018(p)

$26.92

Go and tell everybody working in all the restaurants in your town how they're making $25.00/hour.
I deal with reality, not ideological bullshit.

Just because you can only make 9/hr don't mean everybody else is that sorry.

You were an idiot making the stupid statement that 98% of Americans only make $9.00/hr. You are either really confused or a ******* liar. Which one is it Moon Bat?

 

[Andylusion]

I thought robots were replacing everyone. Do Chinese robots work cheaper than American robots?

Less robots used with lots of really cheap labor.

What's your answer? Do we give up on the very idea of improving things for the working poor and Middle Class?

No, but you don't do something we know doesn't work. Bush just tried steel tariffs, we lost jobs. If you care about the middle class you should wonder how this happened:
CEOs make $15.6 million on average—here’s how much their pay has increased compared to yours
According to a report from the Economic Policy Institute, the average CEO pay is 271 times the nearly $58,000 annual average pay of the typical American worker.

Although the 271:1 ratio is high, it's still not as high as in previous years. In 2015, CEOs made 286 times the salary of a typical worker and 299 times more in 2014. Compare that to 1978, when CEO earnings were roughly 30 times the typical worker's salary.

And how about that war on Unions? Have you noticed with their decline, so goes the middle class?
Middle-Class Decline Mirrors The Fall Of Unions In One Chart | HuffPost

Unions, taxes and regulations are what chased jobs out of the country in the first place. Left to unions, they would chase out the rest.

You and I own widget factories. We are competitors. You sell more widgets than I do, so I want to hire a CEO that will change all that. The CEO wanted you to pay him 5 mil a year, but you refused and gave the money to your labor. I decide to pay that CEO the five mil, and in a couple of years, I get 50% of your customers because of his skill, connections, and experience.

That's how it works in business. Not just business, but in sports and entertainment as well. You are paid by your past performances, and the highest bidder gets your services.

I think you are underestimating the impact of large institutions owning large amounts of stock and not being involved in providing needed oversight of management.


Plenty of incompetent CEO out there, who get paid, just because the Board are a bunch of inbred fools.

Huh?

Are there incompetent CEOs, yes. But there are plenty of times when CEOs are pushed out. In fact, it happens all the time. I don't know what you are talking about.

As for needed oversight of management..... that's what the market is for. If a company does not continue to provide what customers want, they disappear. Where is Compaq today? Where is Block Buster? Where is Tower Records, or Pam Am, or WorldCom?

They failed to keep meeting their customers needs. Thus, they don't exist. This is the beauty of the free-market.

You don't need oversight. The market *IS* the oversight. If the company screws up badly, and doesn't meet the customers needs... then the customers disappear, then the company disappears, and the market they held is replaced by people who will do what the customer needs.

 

[Indeependent]

Less robots used with lots of really cheap labor.

What's your answer? Do we give up on the very idea of improving things for the working poor and Middle Class?

No, but you don't do something we know doesn't work. Bush just tried steel tariffs, we lost jobs. If you care about the middle class you should wonder how this happened:
CEOs make $15.6 million on average—here’s how much their pay has increased compared to yours
According to a report from the Economic Policy Institute, the average CEO pay is 271 times the nearly $58,000 annual average pay of the typical American worker.

Although the 271:1 ratio is high, it's still not as high as in previous years. In 2015, CEOs made 286 times the salary of a typical worker and 299 times more in 2014. Compare that to 1978, when CEO earnings were roughly 30 times the typical worker's salary.

And how about that war on Unions? Have you noticed with their decline, so goes the middle class?
Middle-Class Decline Mirrors The Fall Of Unions In One Chart | HuffPost

Unions, taxes and regulations are what chased jobs out of the country in the first place. Left to unions, they would chase out the rest.

You and I own widget factories. We are competitors. You sell more widgets than I do, so I want to hire a CEO that will change all that. The CEO wanted you to pay him 5 mil a year, but you refused and gave the money to your labor. I decide to pay that CEO the five mil, and in a couple of years, I get 50% of your customers because of his skill, connections, and experience.

That's how it works in business. Not just business, but in sports and entertainment as well. You are paid by your past performances, and the highest bidder gets your services.

I think you are underestimating the impact of large institutions owning large amounts of stock and not being involved in providing needed oversight of management.


Plenty of incompetent CEO out there, who get paid, just because the Board are a bunch of inbred fools.

Huh?

Are there incompetent CEOs, yes. But there are plenty of times when CEOs are pushed out. In fact, it happens all the time. I don't know what you are talking about.

As for needed oversight of management..... that's what the market is for. If a company does not continue to provide what customers want, they disappear. Where is Compaq today? Where is Block Buster? Where is Tower Records, or Pam Am, or WorldCom?

They failed to keep meeting their customers needs. Thus, they don't exist. This is the beauty of the free-market.

You don't need oversight. The market *IS* the oversight. If the company screws up badly, and doesn't meet the customers needs... then the customers disappear, then the company disappears, and the market they held is replaced by people who will do what the customer needs.

You're kidding?
You think that corporations don't pull shenanigans all the time?
I know plenty of Cost and Operations Accountants who have had to leave jobs because they won't sign a lie and take the chance of going to prison.

 

[Andylusion]

Then why do over 98% of Americans make $9.00/hour?
I was on Wall Street in the early 80s.
Reagan started fixing the economy to exclude minorities.
Now we have an albatross around our necks...a very expensive albatross.

I am hoping Trump's vision of bringing jobs and opportunities back to the US pays off.

...... wut? 98% of Americans make $9.00/hour? Are you crazy?

Barely 15% of Americans make $9/hour or less.

Middle-class Americans made more money last year than ever before

The median income in $57K. Who did you let mess you up in the head?

And how did Reagan 'exclude' minorities? Do tell which specific law, excluded minorities. Are you nuts?

I was going to post the reference showing that the average American makes about $25 an hour but his/her/its post was so stupid I decided to not even bother. You can't fix stupidity like that.

Average?
You mean the ones who live in LA, Detroit and NYC and make $9.00/hour.
I hate Rush Limbaugh rolled up statistics.

You are really confused.

Here are the BLS stats: (hint: it ain't $9/hr you moron)

This is the average for about 130 million employed Americans.

Table B-3. Average hourly and weekly earnings of all employees on private nonfarm payrolls by industry sector, seasonally adjusted

May
2018(p)

$26.92

Go and tell everybody working in all the restaurants in your town how they're making $25.00/hour.
I deal with reality, not ideological bullshit.

Um.... yeah dude.... so no, they are not making $25/hour.... but their earning far more than $9/hour. Far more. Waiters and Waitresses make good coin at the restaurants here.

Regardless, you didn't say "98% of McDonald's staff are making $9".... and even then, that's not true. The store I visit now and then, had a sign on the building, $10/hour to start. Which means everyone in there is making at least $10 or more, and most are earning more. You get an automatic raise after 3 months. You can't start at $10, and get a raise up to $10 after 3 months. Math 101.

So no, your statement was absolutely bonkers stupid. There is no way you can spin that to not make you look like an idiot.

 

[Correll]

Less robots used with lots of really cheap labor.

What's your answer? Do we give up on the very idea of improving things for the working poor and Middle Class?

No, but you don't do something we know doesn't work. Bush just tried steel tariffs, we lost jobs. If you care about the middle class you should wonder how this happened:
CEOs make $15.6 million on average—here’s how much their pay has increased compared to yours
According to a report from the Economic Policy Institute, the average CEO pay is 271 times the nearly $58,000 annual average pay of the typical American worker.

Although the 271:1 ratio is high, it's still not as high as in previous years. In 2015, CEOs made 286 times the salary of a typical worker and 299 times more in 2014. Compare that to 1978, when CEO earnings were roughly 30 times the typical worker's salary.

And how about that war on Unions? Have you noticed with their decline, so goes the middle class?
Middle-Class Decline Mirrors The Fall Of Unions In One Chart | HuffPost

Unions, taxes and regulations are what chased jobs out of the country in the first place. Left to unions, they would chase out the rest.

You and I own widget factories. We are competitors. You sell more widgets than I do, so I want to hire a CEO that will change all that. The CEO wanted you to pay him 5 mil a year, but you refused and gave the money to your labor. I decide to pay that CEO the five mil, and in a couple of years, I get 50% of your customers because of his skill, connections, and experience.

That's how it works in business. Not just business, but in sports and entertainment as well. You are paid by your past performances, and the highest bidder gets your services.

I think you are underestimating the impact of large institutions owning large amounts of stock and not being involved in providing needed oversight of management.


Plenty of incompetent CEO out there, who get paid, just because the Board are a bunch of inbred fools.

Huh?

Are there incompetent CEOs, yes. But there are plenty of times when CEOs are pushed out. In fact, it happens all the time. I don't know what you are talking about.

As for needed oversight of management..... that's what the market is for. If a company does not continue to provide what customers want, they disappear. Where is Compaq today? Where is Block Buster? Where is Tower Records, or Pam Am, or WorldCom?

They failed to keep meeting their customers needs. Thus, they don't exist. This is the beauty of the free-market.

You don't need oversight. The market *IS* the oversight. If the company screws up badly, and doesn't meet the customers needs... then the customers disappear, then the company disappears, and the market they held is replaced by people who will do what the customer needs.

YOu are kidding yourself. Too often there is no competition, or no real competition.


And incompetence can be overlooked, because the morons doing a bad job, are the only game in town.


One only has to consider the utter stupidity of ABC cancelling Roseanne.


The people who made that call, should have been lynched by their stockholders.


Why weren't they?

 

[Flash]

...... wut? 98% of Americans make $9.00/hour? Are you crazy?

Barely 15% of Americans make $9/hour or less.

Middle-class Americans made more money last year than ever before

The median income in $57K. Who did you let mess you up in the head?

And how did Reagan 'exclude' minorities? Do tell which specific law, excluded minorities. Are you nuts?

I was going to post the reference showing that the average American makes about $25 an hour but his/her/its post was so stupid I decided to not even bother. You can't fix stupidity like that.

Average?
You mean the ones who live in LA, Detroit and NYC and make $9.00/hour.
I hate Rush Limbaugh rolled up statistics.

You are really confused.

Here are the BLS stats: (hint: it ain't $9/hr you moron)

This is the average for about 130 million employed Americans.

Table B-3. Average hourly and weekly earnings of all employees on private nonfarm payrolls by industry sector, seasonally adjusted

May
2018(p)

$26.92

Go and tell everybody working in all the restaurants in your town how they're making $25.00/hour.
I deal with reality, not ideological bullshit.

Um.... yeah dude.... so no, they are not making $25/hour.... but their earning far more than $9/hour. Far more. Waiters and Waitresses make good coin at the restaurants here.

Regardless, you didn't say "98% of McDonald's staff are making $9".... and even then, that's not true. The store I visit now and then, had a sign on the building, $10/hour to start. Which means everyone in there is making at least $10 or more, and most are earning more. You get an automatic raise after 3 months. You can't start at $10, and get a raise up to $10 after 3 months. Math 101.

So no, your statement was absolutely bonkers stupid. There is no way you can spin that to not make you look like an idiot.

Kitchen help are usually paid minimal wages. Cooks/chefs more. Some a lot more.

Waiters and waitress usually make a reasonable living income. Considerably more than $9/hr.

My younger son is a Sommelier in a restaurant and he makes a very good six figure income.

 

[Andylusion]

What's your answer? Do we give up on the very idea of improving things for the working poor and Middle Class?

No, but you don't do something we know doesn't work. Bush just tried steel tariffs, we lost jobs. If you care about the middle class you should wonder how this happened:
CEOs make $15.6 million on average—here’s how much their pay has increased compared to yours
According to a report from the Economic Policy Institute, the average CEO pay is 271 times the nearly $58,000 annual average pay of the typical American worker.

Although the 271:1 ratio is high, it's still not as high as in previous years. In 2015, CEOs made 286 times the salary of a typical worker and 299 times more in 2014. Compare that to 1978, when CEO earnings were roughly 30 times the typical worker's salary.

And how about that war on Unions? Have you noticed with their decline, so goes the middle class?
Middle-Class Decline Mirrors The Fall Of Unions In One Chart | HuffPost

Unions, taxes and regulations are what chased jobs out of the country in the first place. Left to unions, they would chase out the rest.

You and I own widget factories. We are competitors. You sell more widgets than I do, so I want to hire a CEO that will change all that. The CEO wanted you to pay him 5 mil a year, but you refused and gave the money to your labor. I decide to pay that CEO the five mil, and in a couple of years, I get 50% of your customers because of his skill, connections, and experience.

That's how it works in business. Not just business, but in sports and entertainment as well. You are paid by your past performances, and the highest bidder gets your services.

I think you are underestimating the impact of large institutions owning large amounts of stock and not being involved in providing needed oversight of management.


Plenty of incompetent CEO out there, who get paid, just because the Board are a bunch of inbred fools.

Huh?

Are there incompetent CEOs, yes. But there are plenty of times when CEOs are pushed out. In fact, it happens all the time. I don't know what you are talking about.

As for needed oversight of management..... that's what the market is for. If a company does not continue to provide what customers want, they disappear. Where is Compaq today? Where is Block Buster? Where is Tower Records, or Pam Am, or WorldCom?

They failed to keep meeting their customers needs. Thus, they don't exist. This is the beauty of the free-market.

You don't need oversight. The market *IS* the oversight. If the company screws up badly, and doesn't meet the customers needs... then the customers disappear, then the company disappears, and the market they held is replaced by people who will do what the customer needs.

You're kidding?
You think that corporations don't pull shenanigans all the time?
I know plenty of Cost and Operations Accountants who have had to leave jobs because they won't sign a lie and take the chance of going to prison.

There are thirty million corporations in this country. Do I believe shenanigans happen all the time? Yeah, just like I believe people commit crime all the time. With 310 Billion people in this country, yeah, crime is happening all the time.

Does that mean that every single person is committing crimes? No.

Does that mean that every single corporation is committing crimes? No.

This idea that because there are bad corporations, means all corporations are bad, is insanely stupid, and show the heart of someone who wants to justify his own evil, by saying everyone else is evil.

No. Sorry. I have been a numerous numerous companies, where integrity was the highest and top quality required to work there. I have worked a several places where the CEO shot down would could have been extremely profitable business, because he didn't feel the deal had integrity.

Have I worked at places where they cut corners? You bet. And I don't work there anymore.

And again.... shenanigans will not fix your market. If you sell garbage products, that won't last forever.

Enron is actually a perfect example. They were doing amazing levels of shenanigans. Still didn't stop the market from crushing them. Eventually.... sooner or later.... if you keep screwing around instead of providing goods and services the customers want... you will implode. All your screwing around might hold it off for months or even years, but at some point it will come crashing down.

 

[Indeependent]

...... wut? 98% of Americans make $9.00/hour? Are you crazy?

Barely 15% of Americans make $9/hour or less.

Middle-class Americans made more money last year than ever before

The median income in $57K. Who did you let mess you up in the head?

And how did Reagan 'exclude' minorities? Do tell which specific law, excluded minorities. Are you nuts?

I was going to post the reference showing that the average American makes about $25 an hour but his/her/its post was so stupid I decided to not even bother. You can't fix stupidity like that.

Average?
You mean the ones who live in LA, Detroit and NYC and make $9.00/hour.
I hate Rush Limbaugh rolled up statistics.

You are really confused.

Here are the BLS stats: (hint: it ain't $9/hr you moron)

This is the average for about 130 million employed Americans.

Table B-3. Average hourly and weekly earnings of all employees on private nonfarm payrolls by industry sector, seasonally adjusted

May
2018(p)

$26.92

Go and tell everybody working in all the restaurants in your town how they're making $25.00/hour.
I deal with reality, not ideological bullshit.

Um.... yeah dude.... so no, they are not making $25/hour.... but their earning far more than $9/hour. Far more. Waiters and Waitresses make good coin at the restaurants here.

Regardless, you didn't say "98% of McDonald's staff are making $9".... and even then, that's not true. The store I visit now and then, had a sign on the building, $10/hour to start. Which means everyone in there is making at least $10 or more, and most are earning more. You get an automatic raise after 3 months. You can't start at $10, and get a raise up to $10 after 3 months. Math 101.

So no, your statement was absolutely bonkers stupid. There is no way you can spin that to not make you look like an idiot.

Andy, you're a smart guy and I respect you, but I live in a large metropolitan area...the average is not anywhere near $25.00/hour.
And these people vote.

 

[Indeependent]

No, but you don't do something we know doesn't work. Bush just tried steel tariffs, we lost jobs. If you care about the middle class you should wonder how this happened:
CEOs make $15.6 million on average—here’s how much their pay has increased compared to yours
According to a report from the Economic Policy Institute, the average CEO pay is 271 times the nearly $58,000 annual average pay of the typical American worker.

Although the 271:1 ratio is high, it's still not as high as in previous years. In 2015, CEOs made 286 times the salary of a typical worker and 299 times more in 2014. Compare that to 1978, when CEO earnings were roughly 30 times the typical worker's salary.

And how about that war on Unions? Have you noticed with their decline, so goes the middle class?
Middle-Class Decline Mirrors The Fall Of Unions In One Chart | HuffPost

Unions, taxes and regulations are what chased jobs out of the country in the first place. Left to unions, they would chase out the rest.

You and I own widget factories. We are competitors. You sell more widgets than I do, so I want to hire a CEO that will change all that. The CEO wanted you to pay him 5 mil a year, but you refused and gave the money to your labor. I decide to pay that CEO the five mil, and in a couple of years, I get 50% of your customers because of his skill, connections, and experience.

That's how it works in business. Not just business, but in sports and entertainment as well. You are paid by your past performances, and the highest bidder gets your services.

I think you are underestimating the impact of large institutions owning large amounts of stock and not being involved in providing needed oversight of management.


Plenty of incompetent CEO out there, who get paid, just because the Board are a bunch of inbred fools.

Huh?

Are there incompetent CEOs, yes. But there are plenty of times when CEOs are pushed out. In fact, it happens all the time. I don't know what you are talking about.

As for needed oversight of management..... that's what the market is for. If a company does not continue to provide what customers want, they disappear. Where is Compaq today? Where is Block Buster? Where is Tower Records, or Pam Am, or WorldCom?

They failed to keep meeting their customers needs. Thus, they don't exist. This is the beauty of the free-market.

You don't need oversight. The market *IS* the oversight. If the company screws up badly, and doesn't meet the customers needs... then the customers disappear, then the company disappears, and the market they held is replaced by people who will do what the customer needs.

You're kidding?
You think that corporations don't pull shenanigans all the time?
I know plenty of Cost and Operations Accountants who have had to leave jobs because they won't sign a lie and take the chance of going to prison.

There are thirty million corporations in this country. Do I believe shenanigans happen all the time? Yeah, just like I believe people commit crime all the time. With 310 Billion people in this country, yeah, crime is happening all the time.

Does that mean that every single person is committing crimes? No.

Does that mean that every single corporation is committing crimes? No.

This idea that because there are bad corporations, means all corporations are bad, is insanely stupid, and show the heart of someone who wants to justify his own evil, by saying everyone else is evil.

No. Sorry. I have been a numerous numerous companies, where integrity was the highest and top quality required to work there. I have worked a several places where the CEO shot down would could have been extremely profitable business, because he didn't feel the deal had integrity.

Have I worked at places where they cut corners? You bet. And I don't work there anymore.

And again.... shenanigans will not fix your market. If you sell garbage products, that won't last forever.

Enron is actually a perfect example. They were doing amazing levels of shenanigans. Still didn't stop the market from crushing them. Eventually.... sooner or later.... if you keep screwing around instead of providing goods and services the customers want... you will implode. All your screwing around might hold it off for months or even years, but at some point it will come crashing down.

Wow!
I want to live in your city!

 

[Flopper]

Stop being an asshole with statements like that. It just makes you look like a fool.

What great economist taught your class? How long ago?

The effects of trade imbalance in the US economy are debateable.
The Pros & Cons of a Trade Deficit

But generally, a trade imbalance "should" lower wages and employment. HOWEVER, our trade balance with the EU has not been a bad thing, despite what Trump may sell on TV
America's Trade Deficit Is Largely Paid For By European Investment In American Manufacturing

Jina is probably a different story. Unlike the EU trade barriers are more one way. As the US is now finding out with Harley, and BMW and Mercedes and Toyota will follow.

Yes, they take the money we give them and then they create business with them. Then they reap the profits.

If they did not have that cash in the first place then the money would have stayed in the US and used for American investment and the profits would have stayed in the US.

You are richer if you own the business than if you work for the person that owns the business and that is why that rational about foreign investment fails under scrutiny. That is what is wrong with the argument that everything is OK because the foreign entities are buying up America with the money we gave them in unfair trade deals. We may get the crumbs but they get the big bucks.

We should be doing that to other countries not having other countries do that to us. We got a tremendous amount of wealth accumulated in the US because we did that after WWII. Now that wealth is being siphoned off because of unfair trade deals.

That is what Trump is smart enough to understand and what he is trying to fix..

Let me summarize the data for you,

Arguably, Asia makes washers that are unfairly priced because of closed markets and worker abuse. However, trump has fucked you bigly if you're buying a car or truck, and for no reason other than you are buying his tv shit.

Let me lay it out to you.

China subsidizes their industries giving them an unfair cost advantage. China steals our technology so they don't have development cost in their pricing structure. China puts high barriers on our products so their industries don't have to compete.

Because of those things Chinese goods are cheaper than they should be causing a big one way flow of American dollars into their country. Dollars that are a demand on our wealth.

That is what Trump is trying to fix.

You and all other Americans will be much better off in the long run if Trump is successful in establishing fair trade than you would be for the temporary lower price for the washing machine.

Go take a course in Economics.

About 40 years ago we decided that we wanted to do business with China where businesses were 95% owned by the state. Today it's 30%.

When we talk about Chinese subsidies keep in mind, they are still are communist country. Any businesses owned by the government are going to be subsidize and neither Trump or anyone else is going to change that.

The Chinese have been steadily reducing exporter subsides for years. In 2016 China agreed to eliminate most of the remaining subsides.

Keep in mind that the US subsidizes farmers to the tune of 20 billion a year and energy companies by 74 billion, and who knows how much through defense contracts.

Yes, China steals trade secrets from the US as does a dozen other countries and the US does the same thing. However, the largest theft of trade secrets in China is not really theft. It's Chinese businesses requiring partners to share those secrets.

However, all of the above is incidental to the main problem or benefit in trading with China, labor costs. They are incredibly low compared to the US. This is due to a huge population of low to semiskilled workers and a mostly free labor market. There is not a lot the Chinese government can do about that, nor should they.

The US can not compete with China in any labor intensive industry so we have to either reduce our labor cost in those industries or compete in other industries where we have the advantage which there are many.

 

[theHawk]

Wanna buy laundry equipment for your home? Good luck paying more than you used to, thanks to Donald J. Trump and his tariffs.
In this thread, we will come up with ideas as to how to lower said prices again:
Opinion | Trump’s tariffs are already backfiring

So you support products made overseas that take American jobs.

Thanks for playing.

 

[Correll]

What great economist taught your class? How long ago?

The effects of trade imbalance in the US economy are debateable.
The Pros & Cons of a Trade Deficit

But generally, a trade imbalance "should" lower wages and employment. HOWEVER, our trade balance with the EU has not been a bad thing, despite what Trump may sell on TV
America's Trade Deficit Is Largely Paid For By European Investment In American Manufacturing

Jina is probably a different story. Unlike the EU trade barriers are more one way. As the US is now finding out with Harley, and BMW and Mercedes and Toyota will follow.

Yes, they take the money we give them and then they create business with them. Then they reap the profits.

If they did not have that cash in the first place then the money would have stayed in the US and used for American investment and the profits would have stayed in the US.

You are richer if you own the business than if you work for the person that owns the business and that is why that rational about foreign investment fails under scrutiny. That is what is wrong with the argument that everything is OK because the foreign entities are buying up America with the money we gave them in unfair trade deals. We may get the crumbs but they get the big bucks.

We should be doing that to other countries not having other countries do that to us. We got a tremendous amount of wealth accumulated in the US because we did that after WWII. Now that wealth is being siphoned off because of unfair trade deals.

That is what Trump is smart enough to understand and what he is trying to fix..

Let me summarize the data for you,

Arguably, Asia makes washers that are unfairly priced because of closed markets and worker abuse. However, trump has fucked you bigly if you're buying a car or truck, and for no reason other than you are buying his tv shit.

Let me lay it out to you.

China subsidizes their industries giving them an unfair cost advantage. China steals our technology so they don't have development cost in their pricing structure. China puts high barriers on our products so their industries don't have to compete.

Because of those things Chinese goods are cheaper than they should be causing a big one way flow of American dollars into their country. Dollars that are a demand on our wealth.

That is what Trump is trying to fix.

You and all other Americans will be much better off in the long run if Trump is successful in establishing fair trade than you would be for the temporary lower price for the washing machine.

Go take a course in Economics.

About 40 years ago we decided that we wanted to do business with China where businesses were 95% owned by the state. Today it's 30%.

When we talk about Chinese subsidies keep in mind, they are still are communist country. Any businesses owned by the government are going to be subsidize and neither Trump or anyone else is going to change that.

The Chinese have been steadily reducing exporter subsides for years. In 2016 China agreed to eliminate most of the remaining subsides.

Keep in mind that the US subsidizes farmers to the tune of 20 billion a year and energy companies by 74 billion, and who knows how much through defense contracts.

Yes, China steals trade secrets from the US as does a dozen other countries and the US does the same thing. However, the largest theft of trade secrets in China is not really theft. It's Chinese businesses requiring partners to share those secrets.

However, all of the above is incidental to the main problem or benefit in trading with China, labor costs. They are incredibly low compared to the US. This is due to a huge population of low to semiskilled workers and a mostly free labor market. There is not a lot the Chinese government can do about that, nor should they.

The US can not compete with China in any labor intensive industry so we have to either reduce our labor cost in those industries or compete in other industries where we have the advantage which there are many.

Except that China is moving into those higher end industries, AND other first world nations are subsidizing their industries too.

So, if we try to have "free trade" or "competition" with any of them, we are just choosing to allow ourselves to be fucked.


Either we change the rules of the game, or we are fools for playing it.

 

[Andylusion]

I was going to post the reference showing that the average American makes about $25 an hour but his/her/its post was so stupid I decided to not even bother. You can't fix stupidity like that.

Average?
You mean the ones who live in LA, Detroit and NYC and make $9.00/hour.
I hate Rush Limbaugh rolled up statistics.

You are really confused.

Here are the BLS stats: (hint: it ain't $9/hr you moron)

This is the average for about 130 million employed Americans.

Table B-3. Average hourly and weekly earnings of all employees on private nonfarm payrolls by industry sector, seasonally adjusted

May
2018(p)

$26.92

Go and tell everybody working in all the restaurants in your town how they're making $25.00/hour.
I deal with reality, not ideological bullshit.

Um.... yeah dude.... so no, they are not making $25/hour.... but their earning far more than $9/hour. Far more. Waiters and Waitresses make good coin at the restaurants here.

Regardless, you didn't say "98% of McDonald's staff are making $9".... and even then, that's not true. The store I visit now and then, had a sign on the building, $10/hour to start. Which means everyone in there is making at least $10 or more, and most are earning more. You get an automatic raise after 3 months. You can't start at $10, and get a raise up to $10 after 3 months. Math 101.

So no, your statement was absolutely bonkers stupid. There is no way you can spin that to not make you look like an idiot.

Andy, you're a smart guy and I respect you, but I live in a large metropolitan area...the average is not anywhere near $25.00/hour.
And these people vote.

Now that is more acceptable. There are places where the cost of living is extremely low, and so are wages.

However, I still find myself saying it's up to the individual to find more valuable work. Honestly, anyone can earn more. It's simply a matter of whether they want to.

You can earn more. Anyone can. I went for truck driver training. There were people there that got tired of flipping burgers, and instead learned to drive truck. 3 weeks, paid training, and they were on the road starting at $30,000 a year. In 2 years, you'll be at $45,000 a year.

We had this guy come and do the brick work in front of my parents house. Self-employed brick layer. Made really good money.

Is that fun? of course not. Being out in the heat, or the wind, or whatever... but he made easily $70K a year.

Had a co-worker start doing flooring on the weekends. Work a 9 to 5 all week, and then do flooring all weekend. Pretty soon, he was making more money on the weekend, than he did during the week.

He quit that job, and was making more money 20 hours on his own, than doing a full 40 hours at a job.

You can earn more. Anyone can. Anyone. Its only a matter of if you want to. Phil Robertson was a drunk, serving bear at a bar. He started crafting his duck callers, and now he's a multimillionaire CEO.

The fact is, most people earn crap, because they don't want to do what it takes. I know that's why I don't. Running your own business is hard. 60 hours a week, and there is no vacation time... not really. When you are CEO and something blows up, you get the call. Doesn't matter if you are on vacation or not.

I was working at one company, and the CEO went on vacation. On Tuesday something blew up, and on Wednesday he was back in the office, and on Friday he flew back to his family. He came back the following Tuesday.

Most people don't want that responsibility. They go home, and "this is my time". Right? I'm the same way. When I'm at home, I don't want to hear the phone ring.

But that's why the CEO is paid so much. That's why the business owner earns so much. That's why the burger flipper, who does nothing but turn burgers over, gets paid so little.

 

[AZGAL]

Go buy a washing machine and/or dryer at a store that is going out of business, such as your local Sears. God has intervened on this issue. No stress. Go to a laundromat. Hand wash your clothes. Go to your family or friends with a box of Pizza and ask to use the washer dryer there. Shut up already!

 

[Indeependent]

Average?
You mean the ones who live in LA, Detroit and NYC and make $9.00/hour.
I hate Rush Limbaugh rolled up statistics.

You are really confused.

Here are the BLS stats: (hint: it ain't $9/hr you moron)

This is the average for about 130 million employed Americans.

Table B-3. Average hourly and weekly earnings of all employees on private nonfarm payrolls by industry sector, seasonally adjusted

May
2018(p)

$26.92

Go and tell everybody working in all the restaurants in your town how they're making $25.00/hour.
I deal with reality, not ideological bullshit.

Um.... yeah dude.... so no, they are not making $25/hour.... but their earning far more than $9/hour. Far more. Waiters and Waitresses make good coin at the restaurants here.

Regardless, you didn't say "98% of McDonald's staff are making $9".... and even then, that's not true. The store I visit now and then, had a sign on the building, $10/hour to start. Which means everyone in there is making at least $10 or more, and most are earning more. You get an automatic raise after 3 months. You can't start at $10, and get a raise up to $10 after 3 months. Math 101.

So no, your statement was absolutely bonkers stupid. There is no way you can spin that to not make you look like an idiot.

Andy, you're a smart guy and I respect you, but I live in a large metropolitan area...the average is not anywhere near $25.00/hour.
And these people vote.

Now that is more acceptable. There are places where the cost of living is extremely low, and so are wages.

However, I still find myself saying it's up to the individual to find more valuable work. Honestly, anyone can earn more. It's simply a matter of whether they want to.

You can earn more. Anyone can. I went for truck driver training. There were people there that got tired of flipping burgers, and instead learned to drive truck. 3 weeks, paid training, and they were on the road starting at $30,000 a year. In 2 years, you'll be at $45,000 a year.

We had this guy come and do the brick work in front of my parents house. Self-employed brick layer. Made really good money.

Is that fun? of course not. Being out in the heat, or the wind, or whatever... but he made easily $70K a year.

Had a co-worker start doing flooring on the weekends. Work a 9 to 5 all week, and then do flooring all weekend. Pretty soon, he was making more money on the weekend, than he did during the week.

He quit that job, and was making more money 20 hours on his own, than doing a full 40 hours at a job.

You can earn more. Anyone can. Anyone. Its only a matter of if you want to. Phil Robertson was a drunk, serving bear at a bar. He started crafting his duck callers, and now he's a multimillionaire CEO.

The fact is, most people earn crap, because they don't want to do what it takes. I know that's why I don't. Running your own business is hard. 60 hours a week, and there is no vacation time... not really. When you are CEO and something blows up, you get the call. Doesn't matter if you are on vacation or not.

I was working at one company, and the CEO went on vacation. On Tuesday something blew up, and on Wednesday he was back in the office, and on Friday he flew back to his family. He came back the following Tuesday.

Most people don't want that responsibility. They go home, and "this is my time". Right? I'm the same way. When I'm at home, I don't want to hear the phone ring.

But that's why the CEO is paid so much. That's why the business owner earns so much. That's why the burger flipper, who does nothing but turn burgers over, gets paid so little.

NYC and other cities are comprised of high density, minority areas and no lack of Illegals.
What would happen if millions of these $9.00/hour people moved to the Red States?
The Red States would have a heart attack.
The fact still stands that regardless of background stories of nations or individuals, the "Average Income" masks a ton of misconceptions.

 

[Flopper]

The effects of trade imbalance in the US economy are debateable.
The Pros & Cons of a Trade Deficit

But generally, a trade imbalance "should" lower wages and employment. HOWEVER, our trade balance with the EU has not been a bad thing, despite what Trump may sell on TV
America's Trade Deficit Is Largely Paid For By European Investment In American Manufacturing

Jina is probably a different story. Unlike the EU trade barriers are more one way. As the US is now finding out with Harley, and BMW and Mercedes and Toyota will follow.

Yes, they take the money we give them and then they create business with them. Then they reap the profits.

If they did not have that cash in the first place then the money would have stayed in the US and used for American investment and the profits would have stayed in the US.

You are richer if you own the business than if you work for the person that owns the business and that is why that rational about foreign investment fails under scrutiny. That is what is wrong with the argument that everything is OK because the foreign entities are buying up America with the money we gave them in unfair trade deals. We may get the crumbs but they get the big bucks.

We should be doing that to other countries not having other countries do that to us. We got a tremendous amount of wealth accumulated in the US because we did that after WWII. Now that wealth is being siphoned off because of unfair trade deals.

That is what Trump is smart enough to understand and what he is trying to fix..

Let me summarize the data for you,

Arguably, Asia makes washers that are unfairly priced because of closed markets and worker abuse. However, trump has fucked you bigly if you're buying a car or truck, and for no reason other than you are buying his tv shit.

Let me lay it out to you.

China subsidizes their industries giving them an unfair cost advantage. China steals our technology so they don't have development cost in their pricing structure. China puts high barriers on our products so their industries don't have to compete.

Because of those things Chinese goods are cheaper than they should be causing a big one way flow of American dollars into their country. Dollars that are a demand on our wealth.

That is what Trump is trying to fix.

You and all other Americans will be much better off in the long run if Trump is successful in establishing fair trade than you would be for the temporary lower price for the washing machine.

Go take a course in Economics.

Again, economists don’t agree with you.

They are not much of an economist if they don't understand what the word "fair" means fair trade, are they?

I'd bet those Chinese trade negotiators would be pretty surprised to hear Trump saying he wants a fair trade treaty.

In economics, fair trade means fair prices are paid to producers in developing countries.

 

[Correll]

Yes, they take the money we give them and then they create business with them. Then they reap the profits.

If they did not have that cash in the first place then the money would have stayed in the US and used for American investment and the profits would have stayed in the US.

You are richer if you own the business than if you work for the person that owns the business and that is why that rational about foreign investment fails under scrutiny. That is what is wrong with the argument that everything is OK because the foreign entities are buying up America with the money we gave them in unfair trade deals. We may get the crumbs but they get the big bucks.

We should be doing that to other countries not having other countries do that to us. We got a tremendous amount of wealth accumulated in the US because we did that after WWII. Now that wealth is being siphoned off because of unfair trade deals.

That is what Trump is smart enough to understand and what he is trying to fix..

Let me summarize the data for you,

Arguably, Asia makes washers that are unfairly priced because of closed markets and worker abuse. However, trump has fucked you bigly if you're buying a car or truck, and for no reason other than you are buying his tv shit.

Let me lay it out to you.

China subsidizes their industries giving them an unfair cost advantage. China steals our technology so they don't have development cost in their pricing structure. China puts high barriers on our products so their industries don't have to compete.

Because of those things Chinese goods are cheaper than they should be causing a big one way flow of American dollars into their country. Dollars that are a demand on our wealth.

That is what Trump is trying to fix.

You and all other Americans will be much better off in the long run if Trump is successful in establishing fair trade than you would be for the temporary lower price for the washing machine.

Go take a course in Economics.

Again, economists don’t agree with you.

They are not much of an economist if they don't understand what the word "fair" means fair trade, are they?

I'd bet those Chinese trade negotiators would be pretty surprised to hear Trump saying he wants a fair trade treaty.

In economics, fair trade means fair prices are paid to producers in developing countries.

I think they can figure it out, very different context and all.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

But that's why the CEO is paid so much. That's why the business owner earns so much. That's why the burger flipper, who does nothing but turn burgers over, gets paid so little.

A company doesn't overpay a person. If you operate a drill press for 20 bucks an hour, it's likely your employer is selling your work for 30 or 40 bucks an hour.

If a CEO is making 5 mil a year (and very few do) it's likely because he or she is bringing in 10 mil a year to the company and stockholders.

Why do some CEO's make so much? Because it's like e-bay. If you don't want to pay me 2 mil a year, your competitor just might, and when I work for him, my goal is to take away your business. And if I have a reputation of being able to do just that, it would mean trouble for your company.

 

[Flash]

You are really confused.

Here are the BLS stats: (hint: it ain't $9/hr you moron)

This is the average for about 130 million employed Americans.

Table B-3. Average hourly and weekly earnings of all employees on private nonfarm payrolls by industry sector, seasonally adjusted

May
2018(p)

$26.92

Go and tell everybody working in all the restaurants in your town how they're making $25.00/hour.
I deal with reality, not ideological bullshit.

Um.... yeah dude.... so no, they are not making $25/hour.... but their earning far more than $9/hour. Far more. Waiters and Waitresses make good coin at the restaurants here.

Regardless, you didn't say "98% of McDonald's staff are making $9".... and even then, that's not true. The store I visit now and then, had a sign on the building, $10/hour to start. Which means everyone in there is making at least $10 or more, and most are earning more. You get an automatic raise after 3 months. You can't start at $10, and get a raise up to $10 after 3 months. Math 101.

So no, your statement was absolutely bonkers stupid. There is no way you can spin that to not make you look like an idiot.

Andy, you're a smart guy and I respect you, but I live in a large metropolitan area...the average is not anywhere near $25.00/hour.
And these people vote.

Now that is more acceptable. There are places where the cost of living is extremely low, and so are wages.

However, I still find myself saying it's up to the individual to find more valuable work. Honestly, anyone can earn more. It's simply a matter of whether they want to.

You can earn more. Anyone can. I went for truck driver training. There were people there that got tired of flipping burgers, and instead learned to drive truck. 3 weeks, paid training, and they were on the road starting at $30,000 a year. In 2 years, you'll be at $45,000 a year.

We had this guy come and do the brick work in front of my parents house. Self-employed brick layer. Made really good money.

Is that fun? of course not. Being out in the heat, or the wind, or whatever... but he made easily $70K a year.

Had a co-worker start doing flooring on the weekends. Work a 9 to 5 all week, and then do flooring all weekend. Pretty soon, he was making more money on the weekend, than he did during the week.

He quit that job, and was making more money 20 hours on his own, than doing a full 40 hours at a job.

You can earn more. Anyone can. Anyone. Its only a matter of if you want to. Phil Robertson was a drunk, serving bear at a bar. He started crafting his duck callers, and now he's a multimillionaire CEO.

The fact is, most people earn crap, because they don't want to do what it takes. I know that's why I don't. Running your own business is hard. 60 hours a week, and there is no vacation time... not really. When you are CEO and something blows up, you get the call. Doesn't matter if you are on vacation or not.

I was working at one company, and the CEO went on vacation. On Tuesday something blew up, and on Wednesday he was back in the office, and on Friday he flew back to his family. He came back the following Tuesday.

Most people don't want that responsibility. They go home, and "this is my time". Right? I'm the same way. When I'm at home, I don't want to hear the phone ring.

But that's why the CEO is paid so much. That's why the business owner earns so much. That's why the burger flipper, who does nothing but turn burgers over, gets paid so little.

NYC and other cities are comprised of high density, minority areas and no lack of Illegals.
What would happen if millions of these $9.00/hour people moved to the Red States?
The Red States would have a heart attack.
The fact still stands that regardless of background stories of nations or individuals, the "Average Income" masks a ton of misconceptions.

There are no red states and blue states. That is a misnomer.

Just big city shiholes. Houston, Atlanta, Miami, Birmingham, Memphis etc are just as big Democrat controlled shitholes as any of the northern cities.

You are really confused about this average income. I doubt you are educable. If you aren't going to accept the the BLS average of 130 million working Americans then there is nothing anyone can say to you. You are one confused Moon Bat.

If you are pissed about making low wages then I would suggest that you do like tens of millions of other Americans and get off your fat ass, put down the bong and work to be more productive.

 

[Andylusion]

You are really confused.

Here are the BLS stats: (hint: it ain't $9/hr you moron)

This is the average for about 130 million employed Americans.

Table B-3. Average hourly and weekly earnings of all employees on private nonfarm payrolls by industry sector, seasonally adjusted

May
2018(p)

$26.92

Go and tell everybody working in all the restaurants in your town how they're making $25.00/hour.
I deal with reality, not ideological bullshit.

Um.... yeah dude.... so no, they are not making $25/hour.... but their earning far more than $9/hour. Far more. Waiters and Waitresses make good coin at the restaurants here.

Regardless, you didn't say "98% of McDonald's staff are making $9".... and even then, that's not true. The store I visit now and then, had a sign on the building, $10/hour to start. Which means everyone in there is making at least $10 or more, and most are earning more. You get an automatic raise after 3 months. You can't start at $10, and get a raise up to $10 after 3 months. Math 101.

So no, your statement was absolutely bonkers stupid. There is no way you can spin that to not make you look like an idiot.

Andy, you're a smart guy and I respect you, but I live in a large metropolitan area...the average is not anywhere near $25.00/hour.
And these people vote.

Now that is more acceptable. There are places where the cost of living is extremely low, and so are wages.

However, I still find myself saying it's up to the individual to find more valuable work. Honestly, anyone can earn more. It's simply a matter of whether they want to.

You can earn more. Anyone can. I went for truck driver training. There were people there that got tired of flipping burgers, and instead learned to drive truck. 3 weeks, paid training, and they were on the road starting at $30,000 a year. In 2 years, you'll be at $45,000 a year.

We had this guy come and do the brick work in front of my parents house. Self-employed brick layer. Made really good money.

Is that fun? of course not. Being out in the heat, or the wind, or whatever... but he made easily $70K a year.

Had a co-worker start doing flooring on the weekends. Work a 9 to 5 all week, and then do flooring all weekend. Pretty soon, he was making more money on the weekend, than he did during the week.

He quit that job, and was making more money 20 hours on his own, than doing a full 40 hours at a job.

You can earn more. Anyone can. Anyone. Its only a matter of if you want to. Phil Robertson was a drunk, serving bear at a bar. He started crafting his duck callers, and now he's a multimillionaire CEO.

The fact is, most people earn crap, because they don't want to do what it takes. I know that's why I don't. Running your own business is hard. 60 hours a week, and there is no vacation time... not really. When you are CEO and something blows up, you get the call. Doesn't matter if you are on vacation or not.

I was working at one company, and the CEO went on vacation. On Tuesday something blew up, and on Wednesday he was back in the office, and on Friday he flew back to his family. He came back the following Tuesday.

Most people don't want that responsibility. They go home, and "this is my time". Right? I'm the same way. When I'm at home, I don't want to hear the phone ring.

But that's why the CEO is paid so much. That's why the business owner earns so much. That's why the burger flipper, who does nothing but turn burgers over, gets paid so little.

NYC and other cities are comprised of high density, minority areas and no lack of Illegals.
What would happen if millions of these $9.00/hour people moved to the Red States?
The Red States would have a heart attack.
The fact still stands that regardless of background stories of nations or individuals, the "Average Income" masks a ton of misconceptions.

Well, you are not going to like this answer, but one thing you could do that would help, is remove the illegals.

Wages are a function of supply and demand. Remove the supply of extremely low-wage labor, and demand will drive up wages.

The second thing you can do, that most left-wingers oppose, is drastically increase policing. Crime drives out jobs, and drives down wages. It drives out jobs, because the cost of crime has to be passed onto the consumer. So a store in a crime area, will typically have higher prices than stores in low-crime areas. When people figure this out, they start shopping outside their area. That store closes, and then people don't have jobs

Equally, crime lowers wages, both because when the prior store moves out, the supply of labor is up, while the demand is low, thus wages are low.

But also because crime requires the store to divert resources to non-wage expenses. Every security office placed in the store, consumes money that could go to wages. Every security camera, and surveillance system, is an expense that could go to wages. Every lock, every scan, every ID card, every bar on a window, or grate over a door, is money used for security, that thus can't be used for wages. Not to mention the cost of insurance against large scale crime, that is drastically higher for stores located in crime areas.

Another thing that can be done (for people of faith, like myself), my church supports a program that helps people who immigrate here (legally only), to learn English. Learning English alone, will drastically improve the quality of jobs you can get, and thus your wages.

Lastly, and this one you are not going to buy, but it's true...... Reduce the minimum wage. Many many companies have training programs. But in order to get into those programs, you have to first be hired. In order for people with virtually no skills at all, to get hired on, the company has to be able to earn money off their low labor skills.

If you are simply not able to produce $9 of value per hour, then you are not going to get hired if the minimum wage is $9 hour.

By lowering the minimum wage, more of these people would have access to jobs, where they could then gain the skills needed to move up the income ladder.

When I worked for Advance Auto Parts, we had a guy there that enrolled in the free company training program. No college education at all. No training of any kind. No certifications or other qualifications. He just signed up, and started taking the courses.

Now he runs his own store.

I know several people that have taken advantage of company provided training, and now are all in higher level positions earning good money. And they all started at the bottom rung on the ladder, earning garbage wages. The more people are able to get onto that very first step, the more they will be able to climb to the next step and beyond. You have to start somewhere, and the minimum wage makes that harder.