Washing machines/dryers prices up 17% under Trump (thank you, tariffs)

[Indeependent]

I don't know who "most economist" are. That goes against what I was taught in my International Economics course.

When you have a negative trade deficit then that money becomes a demand on your wealth. It is really as simple as that.

A country increases it wealth by getting money from other countries. It loses it wealth when the other countries have its money.

Now to be fair you can have an imbalance in trade and that can be offset by money coming in from other sources like foreign investments. In fact that is what saved the US for many years. We had tremendous worldwide investment and the profits offset what we were losing in trade. That is what those economist are referring to. However, that will evaporate over time as foreign counties use their excess dollars to invest in the US and reverse the flow of money. That is what Trump is concerned about and rightfully so.

Better economists than whoever taught your class. How long ago was this?

The US economy is all smoke and mirrors.

Huh? Wuh? Yeah, it's all a myth.... all that wealth we're creating, that other countries are not.... which is why no country wants to be in the US market...... you know.... except for all of them. They can clearly see the smoke and mirrors they want.

Then why do over 98% of Americans make $9.00/hour?
I was on Wall Street in the early 80s.
Reagan started fixing the economy to exclude minorities.
Now we have an albatross around our necks...a very expensive albatross.

I am hoping Trump's vision of bringing jobs and opportunities back to the US pays off.

Saint Ronald's worst policies was to ignore anti-trust restrictions and allow concentrations of industry to oligarchic and monopolistic levels not seen since the Gilded age of trusts, and this process is still going on. We've never had such a concentration of wealth in our history, and it has killed off small and mid-sized businesses and social mobility, and the sources of training for managerial and organizational talent.

Ronald Reagan proved that Wall Street works on cocaine.

 

[Andylusion]

I think you are underestimating the impact of large institutions owning large amounts of stock and not being involved in providing needed oversight of management.


Plenty of incompetent CEO out there, who get paid, just because the Board are a bunch of inbred fools.

It's contract work. If you ever picked up any Crane's business papers, you would see sections of CEO's who get new jobs all the time. The only reason one gets a new job is because something happened to the last one--usually something not very good.

Some CEO's do fail, but if they have a five year contract, what is the company supposed to do about it?

It's just like if a famous actress makes a bad movie. Her last parts drew millions into the movie theaters, but this one was a flop. She still gets her 10 million (or whatever agreed on) for doing the movie. Same holds true of a star pitcher, a famous country or rock band, or even a quarterback.

If she continues to make bad movies, the price of her services go down--way down.

I have not seen such accountability.


I've seen fools pass the buck and other fools nod their heads like brain damaged parrots.

The larger the organization and the easier it is to make money without producing an actual product, the easier it is to get away with nonsense.
One thing the ACA did was to make medicine very lucrative.
Yes, the first 3 years where physicians had to upgrade their offices and bring their case management up to date was a nightmare.

If you believe what you said is a good thing, then you can't complain about the cost of health care.

What large organization would you claim, does not produce a product or service, and yet makes tons of money easily, over a long period of time. Note, you can't cite a company with ties to the government.

For example, you can't cite ethanol, where the government mandates the use of ethanol. That's not a free-market system.

I'm not at all concerned about the cost of health.
I am thankful that my family and almost all of the people I know have careers and jobs that supply them with such.
What I am commenting on is processing too many patients, forging case management notes and abusing employees by making them work long hours because the owners, who in many cases work for the practice, are raking in the bucks.
In fact, it's easier under the ACA for MDs to see more patients per day than prior to the ACA.

First, I have almost no care for complaints about 'abusing employees'. I have worked for abusive people before. Not often, but it happens. I found an amazing solution, that works 100% of the time. You stop working for them.

In fact I'm having this problem right now. (kind of). So I work for a fantastic manager, but my position has me working in a different building from where my manager is, and the guy that manages there, is literally a terrible and cruel person.

So all my co-workers are complaining about him constantly. Have not heard one good thing about this guy, from anyone anywhere ever.

I'll tell you, exactly what I told them. None of you are slaves. Every single day that you make the choice to walk in the door, you make the choice to accept how you are treated.

I have walked off the job, away from bad employers in the past. I made the choice, no I will not be treated this way. And I left. Sometimes within minutes of being treated badly.

No one is a slave in this country. You choose to be abused, or not to be abused, every day by you walk in the door. It is your choice.

So when you say you don't like employees being abused, I say that you are lying. If you make the choice to walk in the door, then you are accepting how you are treated, and you need to stop complaining about the company, or the managers, and start blaming yourself for making the choice to live under that condition.

The problem is, some people think they should be able to dictate how the owner of the company, runs his company. It's not yours. It's his. If you don't like it, run your own company, and run it as you see fit. If your system really is better, then you should be successful, and run your old employer out of business.

If not, maybe you should stop complaining about how the other employer runs his business.

Back to the MDs seeing lots of patients.

Again, this is because of regulations and government. Medicare has defined payouts. Doctor Visit = specific amount of money.

When you can charge people a flexible price, based on the level of service, then you can choose to see a patient for as long as you need to, in order to give a carefully considered diagnoses and treatment.

However, if you have a defined payout, then the only way to earn more money is to see more patients. So you have to operate more like a factory, cranking out patients like widgets.

Obviously, I can't speak for all people everywhere, but I can tell you that my experience has been, the completely private doctor practices, that do not work through Medicare or Medicaid, are often the best. They are also higher in price.

But they have the best doctors, and they take their time to do what is needed.

The government clinics, are all trash. You are a number. You are processed like a manufacturing plant, and spit out the other end. Here's your pills, good luck.

 

[Andylusion]

Better economists than whoever taught your class. How long ago was this?

The US economy is all smoke and mirrors.

Huh? Wuh? Yeah, it's all a myth.... all that wealth we're creating, that other countries are not.... which is why no country wants to be in the US market...... you know.... except for all of them. They can clearly see the smoke and mirrors they want.

Then why do over 98% of Americans make $9.00/hour?
I was on Wall Street in the early 80s.
Reagan started fixing the economy to exclude minorities.
Now we have an albatross around our necks...a very expensive albatross.

I am hoping Trump's vision of bringing jobs and opportunities back to the US pays off.

Saint Ronald's worst policies was to ignore anti-trust restrictions and allow concentrations of industry to oligarchic and monopolistic levels not seen since the Gilded age of trusts, and this process is still going on. We've never had such a concentration of wealth in our history, and it has killed off small and mid-sized businesses and social mobility, and the sources of training for managerial and organizational talent.

Ronald Reagan proved that Wall Street works on cocaine.

How? Based on what? What evidence do you have that Wall St worked differently before or after, and what did Reagan have to do with it, either way?

 

[AZGAL]

I disagree- not all government clinics are trashy. Just take the VA- lots of bad service, but there are cities and states where the Vets have heard thru the grapevine the VA there is better and then lots of them relocate to that VA place. In addition, some clinics connected to the government that serve poor and homeless people or seniors are actually quite good. Many private medical places are excellent, yet some are not.

 

[Picaro]

median family income is allegedly '50 Something K'. Minimum wage adjusted for real inflation would be a minimum of $17.65 an hour, or $36,712 a year full time all year round job.. So, a wife and hubby both working would make household income $73,424 a year, so '59 K a year' isn't even up to two full time minimum wage jobs. Whoopity do. And that is gross, not take home, so deduct Fed and state on other payroll taxes, and you have crap for ,median incomes.

Using the Gold Standard, a more realistic model, you need $27 an hour minimum wage to match inflation since 1972 or so, with the Viet Nam inflation cycle already factored into the calculations.

 

[Andylusion]

I don't know who "most economist" are. That goes against what I was taught in my International Economics course.

When you have a negative trade deficit then that money becomes a demand on your wealth. It is really as simple as that.

A country increases it wealth by getting money from other countries. It loses it wealth when the other countries have its money.

Now to be fair you can have an imbalance in trade and that can be offset by money coming in from other sources like foreign investments. In fact that is what saved the US for many years. We had tremendous worldwide investment and the profits offset what we were losing in trade. That is what those economist are referring to. However, that will evaporate over time as foreign counties use their excess dollars to invest in the US and reverse the flow of money. That is what Trump is concerned about and rightfully so.

Better economists than whoever taught your class. How long ago was this?

The US economy is all smoke and mirrors.

Huh? Wuh? Yeah, it's all a myth.... all that wealth we're creating, that other countries are not.... which is why no country wants to be in the US market...... you know.... except for all of them. They can clearly see the smoke and mirrors they want.

Then why do over 98% of Americans make $9.00/hour?
I was on Wall Street in the early 80s.
Reagan started fixing the economy to exclude minorities.
Now we have an albatross around our necks...a very expensive albatross.

I am hoping Trump's vision of bringing jobs and opportunities back to the US pays off.

Saint Ronald's worst policies was to ignore anti-trust restrictions and allow concentrations of industry to oligarchic and monopolistic levels not seen since the Gilded age of trusts, and this process is still going on. We've never had such a concentration of wealth in our history, and it has killed off small and mid-sized businesses and social mobility, and the sources of training for managerial and organizational talent.

What? Social mobility is massive today.

And actually, I would disagree with that claim completely. The lowest classes in this country, live a standard of living much closer to that of the wealthy elite today, than at any time in the past.

By any measure that is true today.

As for killing off mid-sized business, that's true, and it's because the government has more and more regulations and controls over the market than ever before.

And managerial training... that's just flat out false. Millions of companies have training programs and reimbursement programs.

 

[Indeependent]

It's contract work. If you ever picked up any Crane's business papers, you would see sections of CEO's who get new jobs all the time. The only reason one gets a new job is because something happened to the last one--usually something not very good.

Some CEO's do fail, but if they have a five year contract, what is the company supposed to do about it?

It's just like if a famous actress makes a bad movie. Her last parts drew millions into the movie theaters, but this one was a flop. She still gets her 10 million (or whatever agreed on) for doing the movie. Same holds true of a star pitcher, a famous country or rock band, or even a quarterback.

If she continues to make bad movies, the price of her services go down--way down.

I have not seen such accountability.


I've seen fools pass the buck and other fools nod their heads like brain damaged parrots.

The larger the organization and the easier it is to make money without producing an actual product, the easier it is to get away with nonsense.
One thing the ACA did was to make medicine very lucrative.
Yes, the first 3 years where physicians had to upgrade their offices and bring their case management up to date was a nightmare.

If you believe what you said is a good thing, then you can't complain about the cost of health care.

What large organization would you claim, does not produce a product or service, and yet makes tons of money easily, over a long period of time. Note, you can't cite a company with ties to the government.

For example, you can't cite ethanol, where the government mandates the use of ethanol. That's not a free-market system.

I'm not at all concerned about the cost of health.
I am thankful that my family and almost all of the people I know have careers and jobs that supply them with such.
What I am commenting on is processing too many patients, forging case management notes and abusing employees by making them work long hours because the owners, who in many cases work for the practice, are raking in the bucks.
In fact, it's easier under the ACA for MDs to see more patients per day than prior to the ACA.

First, I have almost no care for complaints about 'abusing employees'. I have worked for abusive people before. Not often, but it happens. I found an amazing solution, that works 100% of the time. You stop working for them.

In fact I'm having this problem right now. (kind of). So I work for a fantastic manager, but my position has me working in a different building from where my manager is, and the guy that manages there, is literally a terrible and cruel person.

So all my co-workers are complaining about him constantly. Have not heard one good thing about this guy, from anyone anywhere ever.

I'll tell you, exactly what I told them. None of you are slaves. Every single day that you make the choice to walk in the door, you make the choice to accept how you are treated.

I have walked off the job, away from bad employers in the past. I made the choice, no I will not be treated this way. And I left. Sometimes within minutes of being treated badly.

No one is a slave in this country. You choose to be abused, or not to be abused, every day by you walk in the door. It is your choice.

So when you say you don't like employees being abused, I say that you are lying. If you make the choice to walk in the door, then you are accepting how you are treated, and you need to stop complaining about the company, or the managers, and start blaming yourself for making the choice to live under that condition.

The problem is, some people think they should be able to dictate how the owner of the company, runs his company. It's not yours. It's his. If you don't like it, run your own company, and run it as you see fit. If your system really is better, then you should be successful, and run your old employer out of business.

If not, maybe you should stop complaining about how the other employer runs his business.

Back to the MDs seeing lots of patients.

Again, this is because of regulations and government. Medicare has defined payouts. Doctor Visit = specific amount of money.

When you can charge people a flexible price, based on the level of service, then you can choose to see a patient for as long as you need to, in order to give a carefully considered diagnoses and treatment.

However, if you have a defined payout, then the only way to earn more money is to see more patients. So you have to operate more like a factory, cranking out patients like widgets.

Obviously, I can't speak for all people everywhere, but I can tell you that my experience has been, the completely private doctor practices, that do not work through Medicare or Medicaid, are often the best. They are also higher in price.

But they have the best doctors, and they take their time to do what is needed.

The government clinics, are all trash. You are a number. You are processed like a manufacturing plant, and spit out the other end. Here's your pills, good luck.

Wow! You can walk away from a job just like that?
You can't do that in Nassau County.
I can't imagine your references, especially from the jerks.

 

[Picaro]

I disagree- not all government clinics are trashy. Just take the VA- lots of bad service, but there are cities and states where the Vets have heard thru the grapevine the VA there is better and then lots of them relocate to that VA place. In addition, some clinics connected to the government that serve poor and homeless people or seniors are actually quite good. Many private medical places are excellent, yet some are not.

It seems the quality is all over the place; I have a friend with cancers and other health issues and he gets great service and care, goes to the Nashville VA, and my Texas friends using them are happy, too. And then you have the whining clowns in the Cadillacs who cry and snivel if they have to wait 20 minutes. We know from investigations in the West Coast that almost 50% of the patiente they were treating in many clinics weren't even Vets, so who knows what the story is; my guess is it's based on whether or not your state's Senators and Congressmen are doing their jobs or not, overseeing the government programs and depts. in their districts like they;re supposed to be doing.

 

[Indeependent]

Better economists than whoever taught your class. How long ago was this?

The US economy is all smoke and mirrors.

Huh? Wuh? Yeah, it's all a myth.... all that wealth we're creating, that other countries are not.... which is why no country wants to be in the US market...... you know.... except for all of them. They can clearly see the smoke and mirrors they want.

Then why do over 98% of Americans make $9.00/hour?
I was on Wall Street in the early 80s.
Reagan started fixing the economy to exclude minorities.
Now we have an albatross around our necks...a very expensive albatross.

I am hoping Trump's vision of bringing jobs and opportunities back to the US pays off.

Saint Ronald's worst policies was to ignore anti-trust restrictions and allow concentrations of industry to oligarchic and monopolistic levels not seen since the Gilded age of trusts, and this process is still going on. We've never had such a concentration of wealth in our history, and it has killed off small and mid-sized businesses and social mobility, and the sources of training for managerial and organizational talent.

What? Social mobility is massive today.

And actually, I would disagree with that claim completely. The lowest classes in this country, live a standard of living much closer to that of the wealthy elite today, than at any time in the past.

By any measure that is true today.

As for killing off mid-sized business, that's true, and it's because the government has more and more regulations and controls over the market than ever before.

And managerial training... that's just flat out false. Millions of companies have training programs and reimbursement programs.

JP Morgan was responsible for Dodd-Frank...to destroy smaller firms.
Just like Microsoft killed off smaller software firms by giving stuff away.

 

[Indeependent]

I disagree- not all government clinics are trashy. Just take the VA- lots of bad service, but there are cities and states where the Vets have heard thru the grapevine the VA there is better and then lots of them relocate to that VA place. In addition, some clinics connected to the government that serve poor and homeless people or seniors are actually quite good. Many private medical places are excellent, yet some are not.

It seems the quality is all over the place; I have a friend with cancers and other health issues and he gets great service and care, goes to the Nashville VA, and my Texas friends using them are happy, too. And then you have the whining clowns in the Cadillacs who cry and snivel if they have to wait 20 minutes.

NY and LI have great health care.
If Health Care is a concern you have to be near a major city where physicians want to live.

 

[Andylusion]

median family income is allegedly '50 Something K'. Minimum wage adjusted for real inflation would be a minimum of $17.65 an hour, or $36,712 a year full time all year round job.. So, a wife and hubby both working would make household income $73,424 a year, so '59 K a year' isn't even up to two full time minimum wage jobs. Whoopity do. And that is gross, not take home, so deduct Fed and state on other payroll taxes, and you have crap for ,median incomes.

Using the Gold Standard, a more realistic model, you need $27 an hour minimum wage to match inflation since 1972 or so, with the Viet Nam inflation cycle already factored into the calculations.

No, that is false.

The minimum wage, adjusted for inflation would be $4.43.

Further, any citation of any dollar amount adjusted for inflation, can't use the early 70s as a base. The Nixion shock caused a crash of values. You can't use a clearly messed up basis, to try and claim what values should be. That's insane.

 

[Indeependent]

Better economists than whoever taught your class. How long ago was this?

The US economy is all smoke and mirrors.

Huh? Wuh? Yeah, it's all a myth.... all that wealth we're creating, that other countries are not.... which is why no country wants to be in the US market...... you know.... except for all of them. They can clearly see the smoke and mirrors they want.

Then why do over 98% of Americans make $9.00/hour?
I was on Wall Street in the early 80s.
Reagan started fixing the economy to exclude minorities.
Now we have an albatross around our necks...a very expensive albatross.

I am hoping Trump's vision of bringing jobs and opportunities back to the US pays off.

Saint Ronald's worst policies was to ignore anti-trust restrictions and allow concentrations of industry to oligarchic and monopolistic levels not seen since the Gilded age of trusts, and this process is still going on. We've never had such a concentration of wealth in our history, and it has killed off small and mid-sized businesses and social mobility, and the sources of training for managerial and organizational talent.

What? Social mobility is massive today.

And actually, I would disagree with that claim completely. The lowest classes in this country, live a standard of living much closer to that of the wealthy elite today, than at any time in the past.

By any measure that is true today.

As for killing off mid-sized business, that's true, and it's because the government has more and more regulations and controls over the market than ever before.

And managerial training... that's just flat out false. Millions of companies have training programs and reimbursement programs.

I think you're reflecting on where you live.
I have dozens of attorneys in my community and their response to people who want to sue for, or stop, manager abuse is...
"Are you on drugs? Try and prove it."

 

[Marion Morrison]

Wanna buy laundry equipment for your home? Good luck paying more than you used to, thanks to Donald J. Trump and his tariffs.
In this thread, we will come up with ideas as to how to lower said prices again:
Opinion | Trump’s tariffs are already backfiring

I'll pay the same price I always pay: No more than $120 apiece. Every 10 years or so.

I have a backup Maytag washer on my back porch that's built like a tank!

 

[Indeependent]

Wanna buy laundry equipment for your home? Good luck paying more than you used to, thanks to Donald J. Trump and his tariffs.
In this thread, we will come up with ideas as to how to lower said prices again:
Opinion | Trump’s tariffs are already backfiring

I'll pay the same price I always pay: No more than $120 apiece. Every 10 years or so.

These insane Liberals are talking like they make the same major purchase every year.
Who knows what the hell they're doing with their appliances.

 

[Flopper]

The effects of trade imbalance in the US economy are debateable.
The Pros & Cons of a Trade Deficit

But generally, a trade imbalance "should" lower wages and employment. HOWEVER, our trade balance with the EU has not been a bad thing, despite what Trump may sell on TV
America's Trade Deficit Is Largely Paid For By European Investment In American Manufacturing

Jina is probably a different story. Unlike the EU trade barriers are more one way. As the US is now finding out with Harley, and BMW and Mercedes and Toyota will follow.

Yes, they take the money we give them and then they create business with them. Then they reap the profits.

If they did not have that cash in the first place then the money would have stayed in the US and used for American investment and the profits would have stayed in the US.

You are richer if you own the business than if you work for the person that owns the business and that is why that rational about foreign investment fails under scrutiny. That is what is wrong with the argument that everything is OK because the foreign entities are buying up America with the money we gave them in unfair trade deals. We may get the crumbs but they get the big bucks.

We should be doing that to other countries not having other countries do that to us. We got a tremendous amount of wealth accumulated in the US because we did that after WWII. Now that wealth is being siphoned off because of unfair trade deals.

That is what Trump is smart enough to understand and what he is trying to fix..

Let me summarize the data for you,

Arguably, Asia makes washers that are unfairly priced because of closed markets and worker abuse. However, trump has fucked you bigly if you're buying a car or truck, and for no reason other than you are buying his tv shit.

Let me lay it out to you.

China subsidizes their industries giving them an unfair cost advantage. China steals our technology so they don't have development cost in their pricing structure. China puts high barriers on our products so their industries don't have to compete.

Because of those things Chinese goods are cheaper than they should be causing a big one way flow of American dollars into their country. Dollars that are a demand on our wealth.

That is what Trump is trying to fix.

You and all other Americans will be much better off in the long run if Trump is successful in establishing fair trade than you would be for the temporary lower price for the washing machine.

Go take a course in Economics.

About 40 years ago we decided that we wanted to do business with China where businesses were 95% owned by the state. Today it's 30%.

When we talk about Chinese subsidies keep in mind, they are still are communist country. Any businesses owned by the government are going to be subsidize and neither Trump or anyone else is going to change that.

The Chinese have been steadily reducing exporter subsides for years. In 2016 China agreed to eliminate most of the remaining subsides.

Keep in mind that the US subsidizes farmers to the tune of 20 billion a year and energy companies by 74 billion, and who knows how much through defense contracts.

Yes, China steals trade secrets from the US as does a dozen other countries and the US does the same thing. However, the largest theft of trade secrets in China is not really theft. It's Chinese businesses requiring partners to share those secrets.

However, all of the above is incidental to the main problem or benefit in trading with China, labor costs. They are incredibly low compared to the US. This is due to a huge population of low to semiskilled workers and a mostly free labor market. There is not a lot the Chinese government can do about that, nor should they.

The US can not compete with China in any labor intensive industry so we have to either reduce our labor cost in those industries or compete in other industries where we have the advantage which there are many.

Except that China is moving into those higher end industries, AND other first world nations are subsidizing their industries too.

So, if we try to have "free trade" or "competition" with any of them, we are just choosing to allow ourselves to be fucked.


Either we change the rules of the game, or we are fools for playing it.

A free trade agreement with China would not benefit the US and China would be unlikely to agree to it anyway.

Trump's tariff war with China is a comically inept misfire if the true purpose is get China to change it's ways. It would make a nice one act play titled “How to lose a trade war with China in one easy step.”

The tariffs don’t really affect China, from which we import only about 3 percent of our steel and aluminum. Meanwhile, they send the message that the US government is lurching toward protectionism under the pretense of national security.

Trumps had the right idea when he said, "America first does not mean America alone,” We can win the battle, but not alone. We need the EU, Canada, Mexico, and the TPP countries. Forming multilateral free trade agreements with these countries, we can not only survive against China, we can win.

 

[Indeependent]

Yes, they take the money we give them and then they create business with them. Then they reap the profits.

If they did not have that cash in the first place then the money would have stayed in the US and used for American investment and the profits would have stayed in the US.

You are richer if you own the business than if you work for the person that owns the business and that is why that rational about foreign investment fails under scrutiny. That is what is wrong with the argument that everything is OK because the foreign entities are buying up America with the money we gave them in unfair trade deals. We may get the crumbs but they get the big bucks.

We should be doing that to other countries not having other countries do that to us. We got a tremendous amount of wealth accumulated in the US because we did that after WWII. Now that wealth is being siphoned off because of unfair trade deals.

That is what Trump is smart enough to understand and what he is trying to fix..

Let me summarize the data for you,

Arguably, Asia makes washers that are unfairly priced because of closed markets and worker abuse. However, trump has fucked you bigly if you're buying a car or truck, and for no reason other than you are buying his tv shit.

Let me lay it out to you.

China subsidizes their industries giving them an unfair cost advantage. China steals our technology so they don't have development cost in their pricing structure. China puts high barriers on our products so their industries don't have to compete.

Because of those things Chinese goods are cheaper than they should be causing a big one way flow of American dollars into their country. Dollars that are a demand on our wealth.

That is what Trump is trying to fix.

You and all other Americans will be much better off in the long run if Trump is successful in establishing fair trade than you would be for the temporary lower price for the washing machine.

Go take a course in Economics.

About 40 years ago we decided that we wanted to do business with China where businesses were 95% owned by the state. Today it's 30%.

When we talk about Chinese subsidies keep in mind, they are still are communist country. Any businesses owned by the government are going to be subsidize and neither Trump or anyone else is going to change that.

The Chinese have been steadily reducing exporter subsides for years. In 2016 China agreed to eliminate most of the remaining subsides.

Keep in mind that the US subsidizes farmers to the tune of 20 billion a year and energy companies by 74 billion, and who knows how much through defense contracts.

Yes, China steals trade secrets from the US as does a dozen other countries and the US does the same thing. However, the largest theft of trade secrets in China is not really theft. It's Chinese businesses requiring partners to share those secrets.

However, all of the above is incidental to the main problem or benefit in trading with China, labor costs. They are incredibly low compared to the US. This is due to a huge population of low to semiskilled workers and a mostly free labor market. There is not a lot the Chinese government can do about that, nor should they.

The US can not compete with China in any labor intensive industry so we have to either reduce our labor cost in those industries or compete in other industries where we have the advantage which there are many.

Except that China is moving into those higher end industries, AND other first world nations are subsidizing their industries too.

So, if we try to have "free trade" or "competition" with any of them, we are just choosing to allow ourselves to be fucked.


Either we change the rules of the game, or we are fools for playing it.

A free trade agreement with China would not benefit the US and China would be unlikely to agree to it anyway.

Trump's tariff war with China is a comically inept misfire if the true purpose is get China to change it's ways. It would make a nice one act play titled “How to lose a trade war with China in one easy step.”

The tariffs don’t really affect China, from which we import only about 3 percent of our steel and aluminum. Meanwhile, they send the message that the US government is lurching toward protectionism under the pretense of national security.

Trumps had the right idea when he said, "America first does not mean America alone,” We can win the battle, but not alone. We need the EU, Canada, Mexico, and the TPP countries. Forming multilateral free trade agreements with these countries, we can not only survive against China, we can win.

As ShockedCanadian has noted several times, China sends it's steel to other countries and they in turn send it to us making it look as though we're not getting totally screwed.

 

[Andylusion]

The US economy is all smoke and mirrors.

Huh? Wuh? Yeah, it's all a myth.... all that wealth we're creating, that other countries are not.... which is why no country wants to be in the US market...... you know.... except for all of them. They can clearly see the smoke and mirrors they want.

Then why do over 98% of Americans make $9.00/hour?
I was on Wall Street in the early 80s.
Reagan started fixing the economy to exclude minorities.
Now we have an albatross around our necks...a very expensive albatross.

I am hoping Trump's vision of bringing jobs and opportunities back to the US pays off.

Saint Ronald's worst policies was to ignore anti-trust restrictions and allow concentrations of industry to oligarchic and monopolistic levels not seen since the Gilded age of trusts, and this process is still going on. We've never had such a concentration of wealth in our history, and it has killed off small and mid-sized businesses and social mobility, and the sources of training for managerial and organizational talent.

What? Social mobility is massive today.

And actually, I would disagree with that claim completely. The lowest classes in this country, live a standard of living much closer to that of the wealthy elite today, than at any time in the past.

By any measure that is true today.

As for killing off mid-sized business, that's true, and it's because the government has more and more regulations and controls over the market than ever before.

And managerial training... that's just flat out false. Millions of companies have training programs and reimbursement programs.

JP Morgan was responsible for Dodd-Frank...to destroy smaller firms.
Just like Microsoft killed off smaller software firms by giving stuff away.

How is that bad? If you can get software for a lower price, how is this bad?

That's like saying GM giving seat belts away for free in their cars, killed off the Tucker which was the first car to have seat belts.

How is the customer getting more products at a lower price, bad? If you are able to make a business model, that provides more products and services to the customer for a lower price, that's not a negative.

And yet, it will cause other companies that can't do that, to go out of business. Because they are not providing more services and products at a lower cost.

As for JP Morgan and Dodd-Frank..... all regulations inherently destroy competition and benefit the larger corporations.

This is inherent to all regulations. it's natural. Like rain causes things to get wet, regulations push out competition.

Even if JP Morgan had nothing to do with it... it would naturally benefit JP Morgan.

Why?

Because inherently the way regulations work, causes two results that both benefit the large corporations.

1. It reduces innovation and the ability to differentiate products and services.

How does a small or mid-size company, convince customers to use them over large companies that are well established and known? By either innovating and company up with a completely different product, or by modifying the product to be different than the large corporations product.

Regulations force companies to keep their products within a defined boundary. That makes the products from large companies, and small companies to be more like each other, and it prevents the smaller companies from innovating a new product.

Well if the small corp product, and large corp product are similar, why would you choose the small company which could be risky, because they could go out of business, over the large trusted company that is well established?

You wouldn't. You would be more likely to use the products from the large corporation, that you know and trust, sense both products are similar.

2. It levies expenses on both companies, which inherently means the larger more wealthy company, will be more easily able to afford those additional costs.

If you pass a regulation that costs half million to meet..... which company is going to be able to afford it? Your small size company that only makes a million a year? Or my mega corp that makes a hundred million a year? Or a billion a year?

Obviously my large corp will be easily able to afford the cost of meeting those regulations. Your tiny corp, is more likely to close, or sell out to me, since the cost of those regulations will eat up most of your revenue.

 

[Marion Morrison]

Let me summarize the data for you,

Arguably, Asia makes washers that are unfairly priced because of closed markets and worker abuse. However, trump has fucked you bigly if you're buying a car or truck, and for no reason other than you are buying his tv shit.

Let me lay it out to you.

China subsidizes their industries giving them an unfair cost advantage. China steals our technology so they don't have development cost in their pricing structure. China puts high barriers on our products so their industries don't have to compete.

Because of those things Chinese goods are cheaper than they should be causing a big one way flow of American dollars into their country. Dollars that are a demand on our wealth.

That is what Trump is trying to fix.

You and all other Americans will be much better off in the long run if Trump is successful in establishing fair trade than you would be for the temporary lower price for the washing machine.

Go take a course in Economics.

About 40 years ago we decided that we wanted to do business with China where businesses were 95% owned by the state. Today it's 30%.

When we talk about Chinese subsidies keep in mind, they are still are communist country. Any businesses owned by the government are going to be subsidize and neither Trump or anyone else is going to change that.

The Chinese have been steadily reducing exporter subsides for years. In 2016 China agreed to eliminate most of the remaining subsides.

Keep in mind that the US subsidizes farmers to the tune of 20 billion a year and energy companies by 74 billion, and who knows how much through defense contracts.

Yes, China steals trade secrets from the US as does a dozen other countries and the US does the same thing. However, the largest theft of trade secrets in China is not really theft. It's Chinese businesses requiring partners to share those secrets.

However, all of the above is incidental to the main problem or benefit in trading with China, labor costs. They are incredibly low compared to the US. This is due to a huge population of low to semiskilled workers and a mostly free labor market. There is not a lot the Chinese government can do about that, nor should they.

The US can not compete with China in any labor intensive industry so we have to either reduce our labor cost in those industries or compete in other industries where we have the advantage which there are many.

Except that China is moving into those higher end industries, AND other first world nations are subsidizing their industries too.

So, if we try to have "free trade" or "competition" with any of them, we are just choosing to allow ourselves to be fucked.


Either we change the rules of the game, or we are fools for playing it.

A free trade agreement with China would not benefit the US and China would be unlikely to agree to it anyway.

Trump's tariff war with China is a comically inept misfire if the true purpose is get China to change it's ways. It would make a nice one act play titled “How to lose a trade war with China in one easy step.”

The tariffs don’t really affect China, from which we import only about 3 percent of our steel and aluminum. Meanwhile, they send the message that the US government is lurching toward protectionism under the pretense of national security.

Trumps had the right idea when he said, "America first does not mean America alone,” We can win the battle, but not alone. We need the EU, Canada, Mexico, and the TPP countries. Forming multilateral free trade agreements with these countries, we can not only survive against China, we can win.

As ShockedCanadian has noted several times, China sends it's steel to other countries and they in turn send it to us making it look as though we're not getting totally screwed.

I told some guy about that the other day (and I know of it firsthand) and he called me a liar.

 

[Flash]

[Q

A free trade agreement with China would not benefit the US and China would be unlikely to agree to it anyway.

My god that is a stupid statement.

 

[Indeependent]

Huh? Wuh? Yeah, it's all a myth.... all that wealth we're creating, that other countries are not.... which is why no country wants to be in the US market...... you know.... except for all of them. They can clearly see the smoke and mirrors they want.

Then why do over 98% of Americans make $9.00/hour?
I was on Wall Street in the early 80s.
Reagan started fixing the economy to exclude minorities.
Now we have an albatross around our necks...a very expensive albatross.

I am hoping Trump's vision of bringing jobs and opportunities back to the US pays off.

Saint Ronald's worst policies was to ignore anti-trust restrictions and allow concentrations of industry to oligarchic and monopolistic levels not seen since the Gilded age of trusts, and this process is still going on. We've never had such a concentration of wealth in our history, and it has killed off small and mid-sized businesses and social mobility, and the sources of training for managerial and organizational talent.

What? Social mobility is massive today.

And actually, I would disagree with that claim completely. The lowest classes in this country, live a standard of living much closer to that of the wealthy elite today, than at any time in the past.

By any measure that is true today.

As for killing off mid-sized business, that's true, and it's because the government has more and more regulations and controls over the market than ever before.

And managerial training... that's just flat out false. Millions of companies have training programs and reimbursement programs.

JP Morgan was responsible for Dodd-Frank...to destroy smaller firms.
Just like Microsoft killed off smaller software firms by giving stuff away.

How is that bad? If you can get software for a lower price, how is this bad?

That's like saying GM giving seat belts away for free in their cars, killed off the Tucker which was the first car to have seat belts.

How is the customer getting more products at a lower price, bad? If you are able to make a business model, that provides more products and services to the customer for a lower price, that's not a negative.

And yet, it will cause other companies that can't do that, to go out of business. Because they are not providing more services and products at a lower cost.

As for JP Morgan and Dodd-Frank..... all regulations inherently destroy competition and benefit the larger corporations.

This is inherent to all regulations. it's natural. Like rain causes things to get wet, regulations push out competition.

Even if JP Morgan had nothing to do with it... it would naturally benefit JP Morgan.

Why?

Because inherently the way regulations work, causes two results that both benefit the large corporations.

1. It reduces innovation and the ability to differentiate products and services.

How does a small or mid-size company, convince customers to use them over large companies that are well established and known? By either innovating and company up with a completely different product, or by modifying the product to be different than the large corporations product.

Regulations force companies to keep their products within a defined boundary. That makes the products from large companies, and small companies to be more like each other, and it prevents the smaller companies from innovating a new product.

Well if the small corp product, and large corp product are similar, why would you choose the small company which could be risky, because they could go out of business, over the large trusted company that is well established?

You wouldn't. You would be more likely to use the products from the large corporation, that you know and trust, sense both products are similar.

2. It levies expenses on both companies, which inherently means the larger more wealthy company, will be more easily able to afford those additional costs.

If you pass a regulation that costs half million to meet..... which company is going to be able to afford it? Your small size company that only makes a million a year? Or my mega corp that makes a hundred million a year? Or a billion a year?

Obviously my large corp will be easily able to afford the cost of meeting those regulations. Your tiny corp, is more likely to close, or sell out to me, since the cost of those regulations will eat up most of your revenue.

Business Visa legislation is not based on available labor, it's based on competent labor.
You're going to tell me that only Indians can produce the crap software that has plagued us since 1998?
Every Business Visa not from India was sent packing in the late 90s and early 2000s.

Microsoft's success caused millions of Americans to lose their jobs.
After the 2008, the laid off Business Visas weren't sent back to India.
Stores fired Americans, even those making Minimum Wage, and hired the BVs.
You know what it's like going to MACY's and being helped by someone who doesn't speak English?