Was Waterboarding Worth It?

[BlindBoo]

Let's assume for a moment that information gleaned during enhanced interrogation techniques of Al Qaeda members at Gitmo led to the killing of OBL. Was it worth it?

Years of intelligence gathering, including details gleaned from controversial interrogations of Al Qaeda members during the Bush administration, ultimately led the Navy SEALs who killed Usama bin Laden to his compound in Pakistan.

Read more: Bush-Era Interrogations Provided Key Details on Bin Laden's Location - FoxNews.com

We already know that waterboarding didn't lead to this raid on bin Laden. So no, waterboarding is not worth it. Other more traditional interogation methods are more reliable as was the case in obtaining the couriers name.

 

[BlindBoo]

the thread title specifys 'worth it'...how about, effective?

Torture is effective, there is no doubt about that.

Of course there are many many doubts about that.

Torture Has a Long History ... of Not Working | LiveScience

Torture Not Effective | Talk, not torture, gets the information - Los Angeles Times

 

[TheBrain]

I am sceptical that any torture gleaned the info used to find OBL....it sounds too convenient for some to jump on and make that claim in order to excuse it.

While it is too early to know for sure (if we ever will), I'm beginning to hear that the info leading to the courier was NOT gleaned from torture but from months of standard interrogation and piecing together small tidbits of information.

I'm skeptical that you even know ANYTHING about the intelligence business. The CIA always has and always will use umm advanced interrogation techniques.

How odd....considering that even members of the Intell community are saying torture does not glean accurate, useful info. Now...if you want to use torture to MAKE someone suffer because you really want to punish them....that's a different goal altogether, isn't it?

you are absolutely incorrect. Torture will get you the information you want. The PROBLEM is that it will get you TOO much information meaning you have to sift through what is bullshit and what is real. But torture will get anyone to give up anything. No one is capable of resisting to the point of making things up and not revealing truthful information. So once again, anyone who says torture doesn't work is incorrect. It most certainly does work. Once again, it is a timeliness issue and a moral issue, it is NOT an issue of does it work.

 

[Dr.House]

I am happy that 0bama didn't listen to his leftist brothers and sisters and kept GITMO open...

It takes guts to back down when you're wrong and change tactics...

Big props to him for that...

 

[Cal]

The Big Lie: Torture Got Bin Laden - The Dish | By Andrew Sullivan - The Daily Beast

 

[xsited1]

Let's assume for a moment that information gleaned during enhanced interrogation techniques of Al Qaeda members at Gitmo led to the killing of OBL. Was it worth it?

Years of intelligence gathering, including details gleaned from controversial interrogations of Al Qaeda members during the Bush administration, ultimately led the Navy SEALs who killed Usama bin Laden to his compound in Pakistan.

Read more: Bush-Era Interrogations Provided Key Details on Bin Laden's Location - FoxNews.com

I am sceptical that any torture gleaned the info used to find OBL....it sounds too convenient for some to jump on and make that claim in order to excuse it.

While it is too early to know for sure (if we ever will), I'm beginning to hear that the info leading to the courier was NOT gleaned from torture but from months of standard interrogation and piecing together small tidbits of information.

Yeah, it's more of a moral thought experiment. It's certainly a dilemma. I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

 

[BlindBoo]

You are an asshole. You want to manipulate liberty.

YUO = Idiot

You want to treat people who engage in War against the U.S. as garden variety criminals.

I want to try them. Why is this so ******* hard for you to understand?

Is it because you are a rw kook who hates liberty?

The rules of evidence in civilan trials would likely lead to acquittals for many.

 

[xsited1]

Let's assume for a moment that information gleaned during enhanced interrogation techniques of Al Qaeda members at Gitmo led to the killing of OBL. Was it worth it?

Years of intelligence gathering, including details gleaned from controversial interrogations of Al Qaeda members during the Bush administration, ultimately led the Navy SEALs who killed Usama bin Laden to his compound in Pakistan.

Read more: Bush-Era Interrogations Provided Key Details on Bin Laden's Location - FoxNews.com

We already know that waterboarding didn't lead to this raid on bin Laden. So no, waterboarding is not worth it. Other more traditional interogation methods are more reliable as was the case in obtaining the couriers name.

Well, that will be debated for years to come. I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

 

[JRK]

1) Gitmo remained open because the people that are there are very evil people. Obama kept Gitmo open because he has nothing else he can do with them, GWB did the right thing
2) If you dis agree with water boarding, what would you do to prevent your sister or brother from being murdered? Because those people want to do just that. Its not my fault nor was it GWB fault that those people want to do that. GWB did the right thing

What would you do to stop these people from trying to kill us?

 

[BlindBoo]

According to rw kooks.

1. We are not at war with Pakistan.

2. HC is an ignorable concept that is not the foundation of freedom.

Who is rw kooks? 1 and 2, 50/50.

1. Correct, we are not at war with Pakistan. In fact we haven't declared a war with anyone since 1941, have we?

2. In 2004, the Supreme Court held in Hamdi v. Rumseld that habeas corpus did not depend on citizenship status. The President responded by convincing the Republican-led Congress to pass the Military Commissions Act of 2006, which addressed wartime conditions when habeas corpus did not apply to alien enemy combatants.

The Supreme Court held that detainees had the right to appeal their detentions in federal court in the 2006 case of, Hamdan v. Rumseld, which involved Osama bin Laden’s limousine driver.

The Supreme Court continued to chip away at the President and Congress’s power to establish the Military Tribunals in Boumediene v. Bush (2008). The Court found the Military Commissions Act of 2006 to be an unconstitutional suspension of habeas corpus. Enemy combatant detainees at Guantanamo were entitled to the Fifth Amendment’s protection of due process.

George W. Bush and Military Tribunals - Presidents and the Constitution, Constitution Courier Lessons for your Classroom | Bill of Rights Institute

.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Torture is against everything that America stands for. I don't give a damn what it accomplishes... it is NEVER right.

We just killed OBL. Seems that is much worse than torture. Are OK with killing OBL? If so, I don't see where torture should cause you a problem. If you are not Ok with the killing, at least there is no hypocrisy with your stance against torture.

Torture is probably not that useful for eliciting general information, ie inflicting pain as part of some fishing expedition when you don't know specifically what you're looking for. Im sure terrorists have probably been trained to divulge disinformation to stymy their captors under those circumstances. Its probably more useful in the long run to employ long term psychological techniques to turn the bad guys to give helfpul information. That apparently is the kind of tactic that produced the intelligence that eventually led to bin Laden.

But if you capture a guy and you know he knows where the bomb is and when it's going to go off, and is refusing to tell, hell yeah torture the bastard. Start with waterboarding and move up from there.

Nice spin.

KSM and al-Libbi knew how to get to bin Laden when we captured them. They knew the identity of people who had regular contact with him and would lead us to him. That was about as high priority a piece of information as we could imagine. We asked them for the whereabouts or a lead on bin Laden while we waterboarded them. Neither of them gave us any useful information.

When we interrogated them according to the tried-and-true, field tested Army Field Manual, with no waterboarding or harsh techniques, they gave us the information we wanted - the name of the guy who led us to bin Laden - and it allowed us to find and kill our top target.

So clearly, in the real world rather than the plot of 24, if someone has information we desperately need we shouldn't torture them but interrogate them if we want the actionable, valuable intel they possess.

And you have solid evidence that KSM knew exactly where Bin Laden was. Did you have a direct vision into his mind. Are you a mind reader. Do you have solid evidence that the threat of another round of non-torturous waterboarding did not cause him to give up the info on the courier?

Rumsfeld has been out of the loop for many years. He is no longer privy to Top Secret, Classified, or sensitive information.

Until someone can provide soild proof that waterboarding hasn't worked, then waterboard the piss out of those who can give up information that will save american lives.

I'm sick and tired to listeng to this coddle the terrorist BS.......How many more americans have to die as a result of these crazy *****. How many more heads have to be sawed off. How many more bombs, and the abject destruction they cause, need be set off before you bleeding hearts WTF up and understand that this enemy is unlike any we've ever faced?.....These poeople are hardcore fanatics. They are crazy as all get out, but they are far from stupid. Abjectly crazy zealots are one thing. Abjectly crazy zealots and not stupid is a ******* nightmare........There is nobody on top who will say enough is enough, it's over, we surrender. They will never surrender, nor just give up.

 

[BlindBoo]

People need to be tried for the crimes that they admitted.

Why is this concept so difficult for some Americans?

If you admit to a crime, isn't that a confession, and thus no need for a trial?

That is not a hard concept.

 

[Wicked Jester]

I am happy that 0bama didn't listen to his leftist brothers and sisters and kept GITMO open...

It takes guts to back down when you're wrong and change tactics...

Big props to him for that...

Yep.......If Obama wants to claim any success upon the end of his presidency, he must continue to reject the ridiculous BS that comes from the left.......He needs to prove that he isn't being tethered by the left, and like he did the other day, show some balls, and not worry about what his base thinks.

 

[edthecynic]

Oh this is gold Jerry, gold.

From NewsMax, well-known diehard conservative news site's exclusive interview with Rumsfeld:

Rumsfeld Exclusive: There Was No Waterboarding of Courier Source

So waterboarding led to the phony intelligence that got us into Iraq and was not responsible for helping us capture Bin Laden.

You were saying?

So waterboarding was never used at Gitmo?

the notion that terrorist suspects were waterboarded at Guantanamo Bay is a “myth.”

So when was waterboarding used? If it was never used, why the uproar?

(BTW, let's put this article in perspective: This is Newsmax and this is Donald Rumsfled we're talking about.)

It's also useful to note Rumsfeld's exact wording, "“The United States Department of Defense did not do waterboarding for interrogation purposes to anyone." CIA interrogations are not part of the DoD's authority. The Director of the CIA reports to the Director of National Intelligence.

http://www.dni.gov/overview.pdf

CON$ will never give up the lies from their MessiahRushie, then OK, since the CON$ervative torture lovers need to hear it from the CIA, former CIA officials admit the info did not come from torture:

Hunting him down: CIA finally found his courier. | Philadelphia Inquirer | 05/03/2011

The revelation that intelligence gleaned from the CIA's so-called black sites helped kill bin Laden was seen as vindication for many intelligence officials who have been investigated and criticized for involvement in a program that involved the harshest interrogation methods in U.S. history.
"We got beat up for it, but those efforts led to this great day," said Marty Martin, a retired CIA officer who for years led the hunt for bin Laden.
Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic. It took years of work for intelligence agencies to learn he was a Kuwaiti-born man named Sheikh Abu Ahmed.
When they did identify him, Ahmed was nowhere to be found. The CIA's sources didn't know where he was hiding. Bin Laden was famously insistent that no phones or computers be used near him, so the eavesdroppers at the National Security Agency kept coming up cold.

 

[TheBrain]

So waterboarding was never used at Gitmo?

So when was waterboarding used? If it was never used, why the uproar?

(BTW, let's put this article in perspective: This is Newsmax and this is Donald Rumsfled we're talking about.)

It's also useful to note Rumsfeld's exact wording, "“The United States Department of Defense did not do waterboarding for interrogation purposes to anyone." CIA interrogations are not part of the DoD's authority. The Director of the CIA reports to the Director of National Intelligence.

http://www.dni.gov/overview.pdf

CON$ will never give up the lies from their MessiahRushie, then OK, since the CON$ervative torture lovers need to hear it from the CIA, former CIA officials admit the info did not come from torture:

Hunting him down: CIA finally found his courier. | Philadelphia Inquirer | 05/03/2011

The revelation that intelligence gleaned from the CIA's so-called black sites helped kill bin Laden was seen as vindication for many intelligence officials who have been investigated and criticized for involvement in a program that involved the harshest interrogation methods in U.S. history.
"We got beat up for it, but those efforts led to this great day," said Marty Martin, a retired CIA officer who for years led the hunt for bin Laden.
Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic. It took years of work for intelligence agencies to learn he was a Kuwaiti-born man named Sheikh Abu Ahmed.
When they did identify him, Ahmed was nowhere to be found. The CIA's sources didn't know where he was hiding. Bin Laden was famously insistent that no phones or computers be used near him, so the eavesdroppers at the National Security Agency kept coming up cold.

I find it funny that NOW you believe the CIA, but you called them liars when they said Saadam had WMD. By you I mean the left

Hypocrite much asshole?

 

[BlindBoo]

So now only do you advocate not waterboarding terrorists, you advocate not imprisoning them either?

You're a fool.

I advocate trying people. However, this concept is lost on you.

Sir much like habeus corpus has nothing to do with torture, arbitrary imprisonment has nothing to do with trying people as concerns GITMO detainees. They are prisoners of war, they don't get a trial , they get to stay in a prison camp until the "war" is over. Oh, the war will probably never end you say ? Tough shit.

Again, you are a simpleton and understand nothing of either our Constitution nor the rules of War.

Careful, they're not POW's. POW's have right spelled out by the Geneva Conventions. They are classified as illegal combatants for a reason.

Guess who said this:

One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people.

It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohamed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not.

wait

for

it

.
.
.
.
Eric Holder.

Notable & Quotable - WSJ.com

 

[edthecynic]

It's also useful to note Rumsfeld's exact wording, "“The United States Department of Defense did not do waterboarding for interrogation purposes to anyone." CIA interrogations are not part of the DoD's authority. The Director of the CIA reports to the Director of National Intelligence.

http://www.dni.gov/overview.pdf

CON$ will never give up the lies from their MessiahRushie, then OK, since the CON$ervative torture lovers need to hear it from the CIA, former CIA officials admit the info did not come from torture:

Hunting him down: CIA finally found his courier. | Philadelphia Inquirer | 05/03/2011

The revelation that intelligence gleaned from the CIA's so-called black sites helped kill bin Laden was seen as vindication for many intelligence officials who have been investigated and criticized for involvement in a program that involved the harshest interrogation methods in U.S. history.
"We got beat up for it, but those efforts led to this great day," said Marty Martin, a retired CIA officer who for years led the hunt for bin Laden.
Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic. It took years of work for intelligence agencies to learn he was a Kuwaiti-born man named Sheikh Abu Ahmed.
When they did identify him, Ahmed was nowhere to be found. The CIA's sources didn't know where he was hiding. Bin Laden was famously insistent that no phones or computers be used near him, so the eavesdroppers at the National Security Agency kept coming up cold.

I find it funny that NOW you believe the CIA, but you called them liars when they said Saadam had WMD. By you I mean the left

Hypocrite much asshole?

"We do not have any direct evidence that Iraq has used the period since Desert Fox to reconstitute its WMD programs"
-CIA Chief George Tenet, 2/07/2001

 

[Vanquish]

1) Gitmo remained open because the people that are there are very evil people. Obama kept Gitmo open because he has nothing else he can do with them, GWB did the right thing
2) If you dis agree with water boarding, what would you do to prevent your sister or brother from being murdered? Because those people want to do just that. Its not my fault nor was it GWB fault that those people want to do that. GWB did the right thing

What would you do to stop these people from trying to kill us?

Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.

What if the government decides....
in the middle of the night ....
with no hearing
....and after being told a lie by a terrorist that your sister or brother knows something about the next terror attack

what if your sister or brother was tortured and waterboarded to extract information?

You'd be pissed as ****. All you Jack Bauer motherfuckers always think of hypotheticals where the person being tortured is a bad guy. The problem is that when you bend and shred the ******* constitution...innocent people get harmed.

Stop thinking like a ******* Donald Trump redneck and think like a Founding Father.
Rights are inalienable to ALL MEN.

 

[Vast LWC]

Psst:

Donald Rumsfeld says that waterboarding played no part in the killing of Bin Laden:

Rumsfeld: Waterboarding Didn’t Reveal Bin Laden Location

Looks like, once again, the conservative pundits and talking heads are speaking from their posterior regions.

Do they ever get tired of being wrong? One wonders.

 

[Vast LWC]

Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is claiming the information that tipped the U.S. off to terrorist leader Osama bin Laden’s location was not collected through the controversial enhanced interrogation technique known as waterboarding.

“It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance,” Rumsfeld said during an interview with the conservative magazine Newsmax. “But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”

Bam.