Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?

[toomuchtime_]

No they didn't. Yeltsin was forced out after coup and Putin was installed as the acting President.

Before that he was elected PM.

 

[Stann]

I was referring to eastern european countries as a whole.

Are you going to deny the historic fact that allowing their territories to serve as bases for foreign interests in exchange for security from Russia was/is the main geopolitical goal of almost all eastern european countries including Ukraine since at least 2002 when Kuchma explicitly said it was an ukrainian national priority (that was eventually enshrined in the constitution)?

NATO got away with 25 years of expansion not out of the kindness of Russia's heart nor its admirable patience, I give you that... but simply because the country was too weak to do anything but complain.

Once Eastern European nations finally got their freedom from Russia they quickly aligned with the West because they did not want to be reabsorbed by Russia. Overall the expense with Russia was a very bad one. There was no love in the relationship only domination and abuse.

 

[Stann]

Before that he was elected PM.

And we all know about how Russian elections run. With opposition forces being murdered or imprisoned. Nothing changed, the corrupt government lives on.

 

[toomuchtime_]

And we all know about how Russian elections run. With opposition forces being murdered or imprisoned. Nothing changed, the corrupt government lives on.

In 1999, there was still a large measure of democracy in Russia, but since taking power, Putin changed all of that. My point is, there were very few complaints from the Russian people about the war in Ukraine until Russia started losing, so there is no reason to assume the Russian people are not of the same mind as Putin.

 

[AntonToo]

Before that he was elected PM.

No he was not elected, he was appointed.

 

[Ringo]

The oblivious nonsense Stalinist tools like you peddle makes my blood boil.

When the Ukrainian Nazis shelled Donbass for 8 years. didn't your blood boil? No? Well then

 

[José]

Originally posted by Stann
Once Eastern European nations finally got their freedom from Russia they quickly aligned with the West because they did not want to be reabsorbed by Russia.

Then show us any indication given by Russia that she intended to invade any of her neighbors since the end of the SU. You won't find anything. What you'll find are the first meetings and discussions in Europe about the need to expand NATO starting as early as 1992.

The desperation of the super patriotic american clown to create a grotesque distortion of History in which NATO expansion was a reaction to russian expansionism is so great he even loses any scrupule to rape the recent history of Europe.

Russia extended an olive branch to eastern Europe and the West dismantling the Warsaw Pact, the Iron Curtain and the SU without bloodshed and got revenge, rancor and cold war revanchism in return.

The idea that an individual or a nation should be penalized for the possibility that they may commit a crime in the future is an aberration of thought and it's exactly what you're doing to Russia, Stann.

 

[José]

At this point you may say:

"José, you're being terribly naive...

International relations are not based on "fairness". Countries don't "reciprocate" acts of "kindness", there's no such thing as "gratitude" in the relationship among nations.

After the collapse of the communist bloc, a giant power vacuum formed in eastern Europe and the West was eager to fill that vacuum to increase its geopolitical weight and isolate Russia without any "moral consideration" about Russia's historic, century-long fear of being militarily surrounded by western Europe and more recently by the US.

Countries just like Nature abhors a (political and military) vaccum and don't give a damn about showing gratitude towards other nations."

Fair enough...

The famous realist school of international relations. It's somewhat ironic to see the realist school being invoked by countries that claim to be the heirs of the european Enlightenment, nations that label themselves as "liberal democracies" but let's leave this consideration aside.

The West decided to maintain and expand the european security arrangement of the Cold War after the end of the Cold War. It decided to treat Russia as an enemy after the collapse of the Soviet Union to advance its geopolitical goals.

But power politics is a two way street.

The West cannot impose on Russia the security structure of the Cold War and then complain when Russia finally says:

OK... if Cold War is what you want... Cold War is what you'll get.

You must be careful what you wish for.

People who support the military encirclement of European Russia cannot complain when the russian wrecking ball is finally put to work in Ukraine.

Either the realist school of international relations (aka, the law of the jungle) is legitimate for both sides or it is illegitmate for all. You can't be selective.

 

[AntonToo]

When the Ukrainian Nazis shelled Donbass for 8 years. didn't your blood boil? No? Well then

No dumbass, it didn't.

What boiled my blood was Russian annexation of Crimea, brainwashing and actively arming separatists in eastern Ukraine that was the root cause of the fighting that caused collateral civilian deaths.

Territories retaken under Ukranian controll lived a peaceful life, just like the rest of Ukraine would if Russia minded the many many problems in their own fucking borders instead of trying to break down Ukraine into submission.

 

[AntonToo]

I was referring to eastern european countries as a whole.

Aaand? What about them?

Who is paying for their armies that you think Russia has a right to bomb?

Poland maybe? Litva perhaps? You think Russia has a right to bomb them since they are part of NATO and may get common defense budget funding?

Maybe you should just stop posting half-baked bullshit and go take some time to think things out.

 

[Ringo]

Either the realist school of international relations (aka, the law of the jungle) is legitimate for both sides or it is illegitmate for all. You can't be selective.

Yes, they can! Because hypocrisy is a natural property of American political ideology.
Since birth, hypocrisy has been embedded in the politics and ideology of the United States. And at the highest level. People owning slaves talked about personal freedom... It's like a cannibal preaching vegetarianism to those who he eats.

 

[Ringo]

No dumbass, it didn't.

What boiled my blood was Russian annexation of Crimea, brainwashing and actively arming separatists in eastern Ukraine that was the root cause of the fighting that caused collateral civilian deaths.

You're a complete scum. Hypocrite fascist scum.

 

[AntonToo]

You're a complete scum. Hypocrite fascist scum.

Yep, all you can do is lash out since you have no rational refute that Russian intrusion into Ukraine was the root cause of the 8 year hostilities in Ukraine and current war that has already directly caused 400,000+ civilian and military deaths.

Putin means war, death and decay - this is what morons like you signed up for and will keep supporting all the way to total implosion of Russia, just as Nazi did all the way to total destruction and multi-generational shame for Germany.

 

[Ringo]

, just as Nazi did all the way to total destruction and multi-generational shame for Germany.

Only a stupid bastard can remember the nazis of Germany without connection with the ukrainian nazis.
But you are a stupid bastard

 

[AntonToo]

Only a stupid bastard can remember the nazis of Germany without connection with the ukrainian nazis.
But you are a stupid bastard

Nazis are not known for defending their borders, their infamy is invading and annexing other countries.

Ukraine didn't invade and annex other countries, Russia is the country that's doing that.

Time to take a hard look in the mirror.

 

[ESay]

I'm all for countries with powerful neighbors like Mexico and Ukraine having powerful armies to protect themselves... provided they do it ON THEIR DIME.

If they decide to do it on the cheap, allowing foreign military alliances to use their territories to advance the geopolitical interests of foreign powers, they become fair targets for american and russian bombs.

Listen what Putin says, he basically denies that Ukraine can exist as a real state. And this attitude is quite common among the Russians. Ukraine is an 'artificial state' that occupies historically Russian lands that should be returned.

Are such feelings toward Mexico common between the Americans and American political elite? Something tells me that no. Don't try to base your opinion on false comparisons.

 

[Stann]

In 1999, there was still a large measure of democracy in Russia, but since taking power, Putin changed all of that. My point is, there were very few complaints from the Russian people about the war in Ukraine until Russia started losing, so there is no reason to assume the Russian people are not of the same mind as Putin.

What about the thousands of protesters. If thousands are protesting there are millions that are of the same mind as a protesters but don't have the guts to do it. And those protests have been going on since the beginning of the war.

 

[Stann]

Listen what Putin says, he basically denies that Ukraine can exist as a real state. And this attitude is quite common among the Russians. Ukraine is an 'artificial state' that occupies historically Russian lands that should be returned.

Are such feelings toward Mexico common between the Americans and American political elite? Something tells me that no. Don't try to base your opinion on false comparisons.

The Russian leadership cares little about its own people, and absolutely none about the ukrainians. This is a land grab so the Russian leadership can feel better about themselves and their country. They would kill off all the Ukrainian people and replace them with Russians if they could get away with it in today's world.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Stann]

No comparison. You are being ridiculous again. This was done to protect the people, a public health measure. What Russia and Iran do to their people, is done to try to protect the corrupt governments not the people.