Was the 2020 Election Stolen?

[bigrebnc1775]

I agree

Conservatives should not be allowed to vote
They lack the intelligence

Says the brain dead bitch

 

[Doug1943]

The next election was stolen too! Fetterman? Sinaloa Gal Hobbs?

Yes, it took some effort to lose against that poor fellow. But being nasty towards him -- joking about his mental condition -- lost us votes. People don't like cruel politicians.

And we could have won the governorship, possibly, until our guy came out and announced that he was a "Christian Nationalist"!!!! Dear God ... what next? An endorsement of cannibalism?

Our side doesn't know how to fight smart. We'll probably nominate Trump again, despite the fact that he is almost certain to lose, especially in the key swing states.

"The fault is not in the stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings."

 

[Anathema]

The only way to have a fair election is by having everyone vote.

No. Fair elections would require QUALIFIED voters ONLY. That’s something this system will never allow for.

I agree

Conservatives should not be allowed to vote
They lack the intelligence

Don’t worry, I find just as many ideological conservatives who need to be banned from the voting booths as liberals.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Yes, it took some effort to lose against that poor fellow. But being nasty towards him -- joking about his mental condition -- lost us votes. People don't like cruel politicians.

And we could have won the governorship, possibly, until our guy came out and announced that he was a "Christian Nationalist"!!!! Dear God ... what next? An endorsement of cannibalism?

Our side doesn't know how to fight smart. We'll probably nominate Trump again, despite the fact that he is almost certain to lose, especially in the key swing states.

"The fault is not in the stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings."

You believe Biden got 81MM real votes?

 

[Doug1943]

No. Fair elections would require QUALIFIED voters ONLY. That’s something this system will never allow for.

Don’t worry, I find just as many ideological conservatives who need to be banned from the voting booths as liberals.

The problem is, voting for a government has two very distinct considerations, which have nothing to do with each other, and they are in tension with each other:

(1) Consent of the governed. Allowing everyone to have a chance to have their interests defended, to exert influence, to keep the ruling powers from just doing whatever they like. Taxing all left-handed red-heads, for example ... give the left-handed red-heads a vote, and that's less likely to happen. If someone is not allowed to influence what laws exist, then why, morally, should they obey them? Just force majeure? This is the 'moral' argument for the universal franchise.

(2) Getting the 'best' government, the wisest one. Here is where the argument comes from for restricting the franchise to property owners, to males, to high school graduates, to those who can read .. people in government face difficult problems ... surely they should be chosen by thoughtful, intelligent, responsible individuals ... not low-IQ naifs who will vote for the politician who promises them the most free stuff.

This is why 19th Century liberals like Thomas Babbington Macaulay were in favor of restricting the vote. It's why even Leftists, sometimes, were in favor of restricting the vote, as were the Spanish Republicans and other Leftwingers in the early 1930s, when it was proposed to extend the vote to women in Spain. The Left feared, with good reason, that the newly-enfrachised women would vote as their priests advised them to. (The only instance I know of, of the Left opposing votes for women.)

My solution, which I know is just for fun, for provoking argument (and triggering sensitive over-emotional Lefties): everyone should be able to vote, but only by undergoing something that shows they're not completely self-interested, namely, successful completion of military service. If you want to help decide what the state does, you must show you're willing to, if necessary, sacrifice yourself for the state. This idea is not new with me -- it's stolen from a wonderful science fiction author, the late Robert Heinlein, developed in his novel Starship Troopers.

 

[Doug1943]

You believe Biden got 81MM real votes?

As I said, I'm 'officially' agnostic about it. The fact that Trump says that didn't happen, that the election was stolen, impels me to believe that it wasn't stolen, even though I wish he had won (lesser evil and all that).

On the other hand, there are some serious people who say Biden didn't win fairly. I've quoted one at length here, [ Biden’s Inexplicable Victory - Chronicles ] and here is a link to another one, [ Memorandum: How the 2020 Election Could Have Been Stolen - The American Conservative ] a very serious political science guy. (And on the third hand, they're both conservatives, which of course may have influenced how they interpret the data.)

At the risk of sounding self-righteous, i do my best to avoid letting my political sympathies influence what I believe about matters of fact. So although I would LIKE to believe that the majority of Americans rejected the Democrats ... that doesn't mean that I will automatically believe it.

I want to see the evidence. It's also an ego thing: i hate to lose arguments, so I want to have all the data including all the data the enemy has, before I get nailed to a hard position. (Global warming, same-same.)

My main bit of evidence -- a sort of the dog that did not bark in the night -- is that there were not a pile of Republican lawyers getting into the 'it was stolen' game. If it had obviously been stolen, I think they would have been falling over themselves to get into a legal battle.

In any case, my real belief is: whether or not the last election was stolen, we ought to be putting huge energy into fighting for a secure ballot process for the next election and an equal amount of energy into registering our people to vote and to be setting up get-out-the-vote drives, and ballot harvesting, for 2024.

I think if Trump is nominated, we'll lose, fair and square, but no one knows the future and we might get lucky.

 

[Lastamender]

View attachment 767604

The law was broken. It has little to do with feelings. It has everything to do with knowingly installing an illegitimate administration. Congress was complicit.


And I bet you would not say that to a tranny.

 

[Marener]

No. Fair elections would require QUALIFIED voters ONLY. That’s something this system will never allow for.

Qualified voters being US citizens over the age of 18.

That is who gets to vote.

 

[JoeB131]

My solution, which I know is just for fun, for provoking argument (and triggering sensitive over-emotional Lefties): everyone should be able to vote, but only by undergoing something that shows they're not completely self-interested, namely, successful completion of military service. If you want to help decide what the state does, you must show you're willing to, if necessary, sacrifice yourself for the state. This idea is not new with me -- it's stolen from a wonderful science fiction author, the late Robert Heinlein, developed in his novel Starship Troopers.

Yeah, the thing was, Heinlein was being ironic in his endorsement of fascism...

Modern right wingers have forgotten why Fascism is a bad idea.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

No fraud was found outside of Republican hysteria

And no criminal will ever investigate and try their own crimes. You can repeat that lie a billion times doesn't make it true. 2020 election came out of the pages of communist north Korea

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Yeah, the thing was, Heinlein was being ironic in his endorsement of fascism...

Modern right wingers have forgotten why Fascism is a bad idea.

No we see fascism in the democrat party

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The law was broken. It has little to do with feelings. It has everything to do with knowingly installing an illegitimate administration. Congress was complicit.


And I bet you would not say that to a tranny.

Congress, media and the judicial system. All were complicit

 

[rightwinger]

And no criminal will ever investigate and try their own crimes. You can repeat that lie a billion times doesn't make it true. 2020 election came out of the pages of communist north Korea

I know, I know
Everyone is in on it
Mass Conspiracy

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I know, I know
Everyone is in on it
Mass Conspiracy

Well snowflake Trump Russian collusion was a mass conspiracy theory you were pushing

 

[rightwinger]

Well snowflake Trump Russian collusion was a mass conspiracy theory you were pushing

Russia actually interfered in our elections and Trump staff met with them numerous times

 

[Anathema]

Qualified voters being US citizens over the age of 18.

That is who gets to vote

Eighteen years old and a citizen… Great start. No argument there and I think the Founders would agree.

However, there were originally a couple other criteria you had to meet in order to vote: White, Male, Land Owner. These criteria existed for reasons beyond racism, sexism, and classism. They existed because they defined the group of people who were most likely to be: Educated on how the system was intended to work, Informed about the issues of the day and the candidates, and Invested in the government running properly.

Obviously the racial aspect of those requirements is no longer appropriate. I do believe the other two requirements are still appropriate. I also believe that male land-owners should be required to pass a competency exam before being allowed to vote.

 

[Doug1943]

Russia actually interfered in our elections and Trump staff met with them numerous times

Interfering with another country's election is a heinous crime! Those terrible Russians!

 

[L.K.Eder]

ITT:

of course it was stolen. the proof is that trump lost. that cannot be reality. fuck antifa, faggots and negroes. i am a patriot.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

As I said, I'm 'officially' agnostic about it. The fact that Trump says that didn't happen, that the election was stolen, impels me to believe that it wasn't stolen, even though I wish he had won (lesser evil and all that).

On the other hand, there are some serious people who say Biden didn't win fairly. I've quoted one at length here, [ Biden’s Inexplicable Victory - Chronicles ] and here is a link to another one, [ Memorandum: How the 2020 Election Could Have Been Stolen - The American Conservative ] a very serious political science guy. (And on the third hand, they're both conservatives, which of course may have influenced how they interpret the data.)

At the risk of sounding self-righteous, i do my best to avoid letting my political sympathies influence what I believe about matters of fact. So although I would LIKE to believe that the majority of Americans rejected the Democrats ... that doesn't mean that I will automatically believe it.

I want to see the evidence. It's also an ego thing: i hate to lose arguments, so I want to have all the data including all the data the enemy has, before I get nailed to a hard position. (Global warming, same-same.)

My main bit of evidence -- a sort of the dog that did not bark in the night -- is that there were not a pile of Republican lawyers getting into the 'it was stolen' game. If it had obviously been stolen, I think they would have been falling over themselves to get into a legal battle.

In any case, my real belief is: whether or not the last election was stolen, we ought to be putting huge energy into fighting for a secure ballot process for the next election and an equal amount of energy into registering our people to vote and to be setting up get-out-the-vote drives, and ballot harvesting, for 2024.

I think if Trump is nominated, we'll lose, fair and square, but no one knows the future and we might get lucky.

So the 100% Biden ballot dumps at 2AM with no monitors watching tells you that everything was open and honest?

 

[Doug1943]

So the 100% Biden ballot dumps at 2AM with no monitors watching tells you that everything was open and honest?

Okay. Let's take that incident. Give me a source for it. I'll start a thread on it, and we will focus on that one thing and see where we go with it. What is pointless is back-and-forths where one side makes generalized assertions and the other side makes generalized denials, and then everything degenerates into kindergarten level exchanges of insults.

We've got one going on the Georgia voter count -- a particular assertion from an article in Chronicles which is the best one I've seen on the fraud issue, asserted that there were far more voters in Georgia, than the Census Bureau said there were people. So, we're looking at that claim. I'm in touch with the main anti-cheating group in Georgia now, and we can get the best case possible on population vs voters from them.

As I said, I've assumed that if there were serious evidence of systematic fraud, that Republican lawyers would have been all over it. (This doesn't preclude the other side's cheating where they could here and there. As I've said, ballot fraud goes back a long way ... some people believe JFK won in 1960 because of fraud in Illinois and Texas. And if you believe you're cheating to prevent a fascist from taking over, then you're all the more likely to cheat.)

Anyway, give me a bit more detail on that 2am ballot dump and I'll search for links and we can focus on that.