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Was Pope Francis Actually Swindled into Meeting Kim Davis?
- Thread starter Synthaholic
- Start date
Blackrook
Diamond Member
- Jun 20, 2014
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Gays think it's all about them, but the much bigger issue is the Church's treatment of people who have divorced and remarried. According to Catholic Church doctrine, based on the words of Jesus Christ himself, people who have divorced and remarried are in a permanent state of sin and cannot receive the Eucharist. There are many, many otherwise good Catholics who are not allowed to participate in the Church because of this rule. Many of them go to the Protestants, where divorce is no longer an issue.
Ravi
Diamond Member
Don't know the answer to the OP but is looking like Kim Davis lied about meeting privately with the pope which makes her a bigger sinner than any couple she is refusing to marry. She should resign from her government job in protest against her hiring.
- Mar 16, 2012
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^^^ Another retard who doesn't read OPs before spouting his bullshit.Amazing, the delusional shit you people convince yourself of when confronted with the truth. Does anybody actually believe that the Pope would get tricked into meeting such a controversial figure?
Liberalism is a mental disorder.
He didn't have a "meeting" with her. She was a part of a procession of people invited by Vigano to get a greeting and a handshake. He had no clue who she was, other than an invited guest of the papal nuncia, Vigano.
Was the OP just too damn long for you to bother with? Problems with ADD?
I'm sorry but esquire doesn't really qualify as a legit source of info. What next will you mad liberals say? That Pope Francis "was set up" and didn't intentionally want meet with the Little Sisters who are protesting and suing the Obama fascists? Ha ha ha.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/30/u...who-denied-gay-couples-visited-pope.html?_r=0
Letter #38, 2015: Kim and Francis - Inside The Vatican
September 29, 2015, Tuesday — Kim and Francis
“Holy Father, you visited the Little Sisters of the Poor and we were told that you wanted to show your support for them and their case in the courts. And, Holy Father, do you also support those individuals, including government officials, who say they cannot in good conscience, their own personal conscience, abide by some laws or discharge their duties as government officials, for example in issuing marriage licenses to same sex couples? Do you support those kinds of claims of religious liberty?” —Terry Moran, ABC News, asking a question to Pope Francis on the papal airplane during an impromptu airplane press conference, on the evening of Sunday, September 27, just after the Pope left the United States to return to Rome
“Conscientious objection is a right that is a part of every human right. It is a right. And if a person does not allow others to be a conscientious objector, he denies a right. Conscientious objection must enter into every juridical structure because it is a right, a human right. Otherwise we would end up in a situation where we select what is a right, saying ‘this right that has merit, this one does not.’ It (conscientious objection) is a human right.” —Pope Francis, answering Terry Moran’s question on the papal flight on September 27
“Would that include government officials as well?” —Followup question by Moran
“It is a human right and if a government official is a human person, he has that right. It is a human right.” —Pope Francis, answer to the followup question
- Mar 16, 2012
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Don't know the answer to the OP but is looking like Kim Davis lied about meeting privately with the pope which makes her a bigger sinner than any couple she is refusing to marry. She should resign from her government job in protest against her hiring.
Not a fan of this Pope, but....she and her husband were picked up personally and driven over to the Vatican Embassy by a Vatican vehicle. There may have been more that received this "special invitation"
And when she met with the Pope, he told her to "stay strong". This doesn't sound like the Pope was tricked into it, nor do his words to her sound like he didn't know who she was.
Ravi
Diamond Member
He more than likely said the same thing to each person in the group.Don't know the answer to the OP but is looking like Kim Davis lied about meeting privately with the pope which makes her a bigger sinner than any couple she is refusing to marry. She should resign from her government job in protest against her hiring.
Not a fan of this Pope, but....she and her husband were picked up personally and driven over to the Vatican Embassy by a Vatican vehicle. There may have been more that received this "special invitation"
And when she met with the Pope, he told her to "stay strong". This doesn't sound like the Pope was tricked into it, nor do his words to her sound like he didn't know who she was.
I imagine he was thinking to himself, I'm glad I'm celibate if this is a representation of my options.
- Mar 16, 2012
- 59,290
- 17,604
- 2,180
He more than likely said the same thing to each person in the group.Don't know the answer to the OP but is looking like Kim Davis lied about meeting privately with the pope which makes her a bigger sinner than any couple she is refusing to marry. She should resign from her government job in protest against her hiring.
Not a fan of this Pope, but....she and her husband were picked up personally and driven over to the Vatican Embassy by a Vatican vehicle. There may have been more that received this "special invitation"
And when she met with the Pope, he told her to "stay strong". This doesn't sound like the Pope was tricked into it, nor do his words to her sound like he didn't know who she was.
I imagine he was thinking to himself, I'm glad I'm celibate if this is a representation of my options.
I think he's playing both sides. The meeting with the Little Sisters wasn't accidental, neither was Kim Davis' invitation. Apparently he had met with a gay student right before meeting with her.
- Thread starter
- #29
Holy shit! Drip, drip, drip... 
The Shady Group That Played Pope Francis
The pontiff found his reformer image tarnished when it was announced he met with Kim Davis. The group behind the political coup? The Liberty Counsel.
Around 8 p.m. on Sept. 29, the Liberty Counsel, Kim Davis’ legal representation, tweeted a report from Inside the Vatican that Pope Francis had a secret meeting with their client. Robert Moynihan, the writer who broke the story, had gotten his information exclusively from the Liberty Counsel.
What started out as a rumor about a closed-door meeting quickly evolved into something much bigger—the claim that Pope Francis, for all of his kindness toward LGBT people, was really on the side of the Religious Right.
You can imagine how the secret meeting might have gone, said the Liberty Counsel: Pope Francis embracing a humbled Kim Davis, encouraging her to “stay strong,” and validating her fight against gay marriage. And then mere hours later, with poor, sweet Kim fresh in his memory, telling journalists that government officials—why, just like that Kentucky gal!—have the right to conscientious objection.
But many journalists with connections inside the Vatican, myself included, were having difficulty figuring out exactly what transpired between Francis and Davis because the Liberty Counsel’s story was so incredibly vague. Who, for instance, initiated the meeting—and why?
According to Davis’ lawyer, Mat Staver, the meeting came “from the Vatican itself”—which reads as his deceptive way of saying, “Pope Francis didn’t actually invite Davis to the embassy, but someone with Vatican connections did, so we’re going to keep saying Vatican over and over until enough people think the Holy Father actually invited our client to meet him.”
Though many pressed Staver to release the name of the Vatican official, he held out as long as he could until eventually the secret broke. The meeting was initiated by Archbishop Vigano, Vatican ambassador to the U.S., who is a strong opponent of same-sex marriage.
Last spring, for example, Vigano attended an anti-gay rally organized by the National Organization for Marriage. In a press release, NOM called Vigano the “official representative of Pope Francis,” which—as is implied by the designation—they took as a papal seal of approval for their fight against gay marriage. (This is why Vigano has won himself the ire of many Catholics—he should’ve known that when he wades into a culture war, he drags Francis unwittingly with him.)
The inconsistencies with the Liberty Counsel’s story were infuriatingly apparent from go. For example, Staver told CBS that Francis definitely knew who Kim Davis was, before their meeting: “Pope Francis,” he said, “has been following the story of Kim Davis and obviously is very concerned about religious liberty, not just in the United States, but worldwide.” But in an interview with TIME, Staver said that he didn't know if Francis knew who his client was, but he assumed the pope had heard of her because “her story has been published worldwide.”
The Vatican quickly realized they had to weigh in. Admitting that Francis had some brief encounter with Davis, the statement from the Holy See’s press office made clear that the meeting “should not be considered a form of support” for Davis’ refusal to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Moreover, the Vatican didn’t even consider Davis a “real audience,” saying she was just one of dozens paraded in front of the pontiff at the Vatican embassy.
That sounds like a diplomatic way of saying this: Francis met Davis, but he probably had no idea who she was. And regardless, as James Martin, the Jesuit priest and author notes in America Magazine, “despite what Ms. Davis said, a meeting with the pope does not ‘kind of validate everything.’”
The Liberty Counsel didn’t back down at all. They argued that Pope Francis made clear in an interview that he does in fact support their client by virtue of the fact that he supports conscientious objection.
Staver argued that whether or not his story was factually accurate, it was symbolically accurate: Pope Francis supports conscientious objection, and since the Liberty Counsel sees Davis as a conscientious objector (many disagree with that assessment, by the way) then they don’t think it’s a lie to present Francis and Kim’s meeting the way they have.
The Shady Group That Played Pope Francis
The pontiff found his reformer image tarnished when it was announced he met with Kim Davis. The group behind the political coup? The Liberty Counsel.
Around 8 p.m. on Sept. 29, the Liberty Counsel, Kim Davis’ legal representation, tweeted a report from Inside the Vatican that Pope Francis had a secret meeting with their client. Robert Moynihan, the writer who broke the story, had gotten his information exclusively from the Liberty Counsel.
What started out as a rumor about a closed-door meeting quickly evolved into something much bigger—the claim that Pope Francis, for all of his kindness toward LGBT people, was really on the side of the Religious Right.
You can imagine how the secret meeting might have gone, said the Liberty Counsel: Pope Francis embracing a humbled Kim Davis, encouraging her to “stay strong,” and validating her fight against gay marriage. And then mere hours later, with poor, sweet Kim fresh in his memory, telling journalists that government officials—why, just like that Kentucky gal!—have the right to conscientious objection.
But many journalists with connections inside the Vatican, myself included, were having difficulty figuring out exactly what transpired between Francis and Davis because the Liberty Counsel’s story was so incredibly vague. Who, for instance, initiated the meeting—and why?
According to Davis’ lawyer, Mat Staver, the meeting came “from the Vatican itself”—which reads as his deceptive way of saying, “Pope Francis didn’t actually invite Davis to the embassy, but someone with Vatican connections did, so we’re going to keep saying Vatican over and over until enough people think the Holy Father actually invited our client to meet him.”
Though many pressed Staver to release the name of the Vatican official, he held out as long as he could until eventually the secret broke. The meeting was initiated by Archbishop Vigano, Vatican ambassador to the U.S., who is a strong opponent of same-sex marriage.
Last spring, for example, Vigano attended an anti-gay rally organized by the National Organization for Marriage. In a press release, NOM called Vigano the “official representative of Pope Francis,” which—as is implied by the designation—they took as a papal seal of approval for their fight against gay marriage. (This is why Vigano has won himself the ire of many Catholics—he should’ve known that when he wades into a culture war, he drags Francis unwittingly with him.)
The inconsistencies with the Liberty Counsel’s story were infuriatingly apparent from go. For example, Staver told CBS that Francis definitely knew who Kim Davis was, before their meeting: “Pope Francis,” he said, “has been following the story of Kim Davis and obviously is very concerned about religious liberty, not just in the United States, but worldwide.” But in an interview with TIME, Staver said that he didn't know if Francis knew who his client was, but he assumed the pope had heard of her because “her story has been published worldwide.”
The Vatican quickly realized they had to weigh in. Admitting that Francis had some brief encounter with Davis, the statement from the Holy See’s press office made clear that the meeting “should not be considered a form of support” for Davis’ refusal to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Moreover, the Vatican didn’t even consider Davis a “real audience,” saying she was just one of dozens paraded in front of the pontiff at the Vatican embassy.
That sounds like a diplomatic way of saying this: Francis met Davis, but he probably had no idea who she was. And regardless, as James Martin, the Jesuit priest and author notes in America Magazine, “despite what Ms. Davis said, a meeting with the pope does not ‘kind of validate everything.’”
The Liberty Counsel didn’t back down at all. They argued that Pope Francis made clear in an interview that he does in fact support their client by virtue of the fact that he supports conscientious objection.
Staver argued that whether or not his story was factually accurate, it was symbolically accurate: Pope Francis supports conscientious objection, and since the Liberty Counsel sees Davis as a conscientious objector (many disagree with that assessment, by the way) then they don’t think it’s a lie to present Francis and Kim’s meeting the way they have.
- Thread starter
- #30
Again:
Moreover, the Vatican didn’t even consider Davis a “real audience,” saying she was just one of dozens paraded in front of the pontiff at the Vatican embassy.
Moreover, the Vatican didn’t even consider Davis a “real audience,” saying she was just one of dozens paraded in front of the pontiff at the Vatican embassy.
- Thread starter
- #31
More...this Liberty Councel are a bunch of lying cocksuckers. No wonder Huckaminajad and the Righteous Right support them.
To put it in theological terms, the Liberty Counsel expects us to ignore the letter of what they say and pay attention to the spirit of what they say. This explanation is an odd strategy for, you know, attorneys. “Your honor, you’re getting tripped up here on the evidence! Look at the big metaphorical picture!”
This kind of deceptive wordplay isn’t a new game to the Liberty Counsel. Just last month they pulled something similar.
Imagine this, they said. Tens of thousands of Christian opponents of gay marriage filling a field in Peru, for the sole purpose of lifting up Kim Davis, their sister in Christ, in prayer as she wages war on gay pagans. You can, in fact, imagine this because the Liberty Counsel, Davis’ legal representation promised that it happened. There are even pictures to prove it, they said.
Except, that story wasn’t true either.
The picture of a 100,000-strong rally in Peru that the Liberty Counsel tweeted out to prove that there was global support for their client was actually from a prayer rally from May 2014. It had absolutely nothing to do with Davis.
To put it in theological terms, the Liberty Counsel expects us to ignore the letter of what they say and pay attention to the spirit of what they say. This explanation is an odd strategy for, you know, attorneys. “Your honor, you’re getting tripped up here on the evidence! Look at the big metaphorical picture!”
This kind of deceptive wordplay isn’t a new game to the Liberty Counsel. Just last month they pulled something similar.
Imagine this, they said. Tens of thousands of Christian opponents of gay marriage filling a field in Peru, for the sole purpose of lifting up Kim Davis, their sister in Christ, in prayer as she wages war on gay pagans. You can, in fact, imagine this because the Liberty Counsel, Davis’ legal representation promised that it happened. There are even pictures to prove it, they said.
Except, that story wasn’t true either.
The picture of a 100,000-strong rally in Peru that the Liberty Counsel tweeted out to prove that there was global support for their client was actually from a prayer rally from May 2014. It had absolutely nothing to do with Davis.
- Thread starter
- #32
The Southern Poverty Law Center classifies the Liberty Counsel as a hate group. Importantly, the SPLC does not classify religious groups as hate groups simply because they believe or preach that homosexuality is sinful (religious groups have a protected right to that belief) but because they propagate known falsehoods, and often employ “groundless name-calling.”
- Thread starter
- #33
And finally...
True to form, the Liberty Counsel tried to play Francis. They knew that the Vatican, even if they wanted to, couldn’t throw Davis under the bus. First, Francis is a pastor, and he wouldn’t do that. Second, Francis already won himself the ire of plenty of American conservatives for what they consider to be his weak, not-loud-enough stance against homosexuality. Did Francis really want to risk driving those conservatives even further away from the church? It was like the Liberty Counsel drove Francis into a corner, and dared him to call their bluff.
Unfortunately for the Liberty Counsel, he did. And he did it gloriously.
Remember how the Vatican’s official statement said Davis wasn’t a “real audience” for the pope because he only had one of those?
Well, that audience was with none other than Francis’ former student, who is gay, and his partner of 19 years. CNN broke the news in an exclusive interview with Yayo Grassi, the gay student.
While there’s no video took back up Davis’ story—which will no doubt change several more times, as it already has—there’s video of the Pope embracing his real audience. He knew both men were gay, and partnered. He didn’t use the moment to pray for their conversion to heterosexuality, or to give them a brochure on the ex-gay movement, or to lecture them on church teaching about sexuality. He welcomed them. He embraced them. He kissed them on the cheek. He smiled with them.
Is that meeting proof that Francis wants to change church teaching on homosexuality? No. But it is evidence of Pope Francis’ character—that in spite of his institution’s historical mistreatment of LGBT people, the judgment stops with him.
That’s who Pope Francis is.
Good luck spinning that, Mat Staver.
True to form, the Liberty Counsel tried to play Francis. They knew that the Vatican, even if they wanted to, couldn’t throw Davis under the bus. First, Francis is a pastor, and he wouldn’t do that. Second, Francis already won himself the ire of plenty of American conservatives for what they consider to be his weak, not-loud-enough stance against homosexuality. Did Francis really want to risk driving those conservatives even further away from the church? It was like the Liberty Counsel drove Francis into a corner, and dared him to call their bluff.
Unfortunately for the Liberty Counsel, he did. And he did it gloriously.
Remember how the Vatican’s official statement said Davis wasn’t a “real audience” for the pope because he only had one of those?
Well, that audience was with none other than Francis’ former student, who is gay, and his partner of 19 years. CNN broke the news in an exclusive interview with Yayo Grassi, the gay student.
While there’s no video took back up Davis’ story—which will no doubt change several more times, as it already has—there’s video of the Pope embracing his real audience. He knew both men were gay, and partnered. He didn’t use the moment to pray for their conversion to heterosexuality, or to give them a brochure on the ex-gay movement, or to lecture them on church teaching about sexuality. He welcomed them. He embraced them. He kissed them on the cheek. He smiled with them.
Is that meeting proof that Francis wants to change church teaching on homosexuality? No. But it is evidence of Pope Francis’ character—that in spite of his institution’s historical mistreatment of LGBT people, the judgment stops with him.
That’s who Pope Francis is.
Good luck spinning that, Mat Staver.
Ravi
Diamond Member
Is Davis accusing the Pope of lying?
Valerie
Platinum Member
- Sep 17, 2008
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Ravi
Diamond Member
Sweet!wooops
View attachment 51631
Pope Francis Expected to Fire Archbishop Who Set Up the Meeting With Kim Davis
Valerie
Platinum Member
- Sep 17, 2008
- 31,521
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This is what it sounds like when a pope gets mad.
On Friday, Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi released an extraordinary statement, personally approved by Pope Francis, debunking nearly everything that has been reported this week about a meeting between the pope and Kim Davis...
The real story behind the pope’s meeting with Kim Davis
On Friday, Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi released an extraordinary statement, personally approved by Pope Francis, debunking nearly everything that has been reported this week about a meeting between the pope and Kim Davis...
The real story behind the pope’s meeting with Kim Davis
Ravi
Diamond Member
Wow. She really did lie about it. What does that say about her?This is what it sounds like when a pope gets mad.
On Friday, Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi released an extraordinary statement, personally approved by Pope Francis, debunking nearly everything that has been reported this week about a meeting between the pope and Kim Davis...
The real story behind the pope’s meeting with Kim Davis
- Mar 16, 2012
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So the Vatican sent a private chauffeur to pick up Davis and her husband, not knowing who she really was?
And the all the references you have against this are Esquire, Rolling Stone, etc.?
Was the Pope also "swindled" into meeting with the Little Sisters who protested the forced contraception of Obamacare?
And the all the references you have against this are Esquire, Rolling Stone, etc.?
Was the Pope also "swindled" into meeting with the Little Sisters who protested the forced contraception of Obamacare?
Delta4Embassy
Gold Member
Yup, it turns out.
Was Pope Francis Actually Swindled into Meeting Kim Davis?
*snip*
According to (E.J.) Dionne, the meeting between Davis and the pope was brokered by Archbishop Carlo Vigano, the papal nuncio to the United States at whose residence the pope stayed during his time in Washington, which is when the meeting took place.
Before we continue, let us stipulate a few things. First of all, let us stipulate that there are more than a few members of the Church's permanent bureaucracy, both within the Clan Of The Red Beanie and without, who are not happy that this gentleman got elected Pope, and who are not happy with what he's done and said since he was. Second, let us stipulate that many members of this group are loyal to both former pope Josef Ratzinger and, through him, to the memory (and to what they perceive as the legacy) of John Paul II who, for good and ill, had a much different idea of how to wield a papacy than Papa Francesco does. Third, let us stipulate that this opposition to the current pope has been active and vocal, to say nothing of paranoid. Finally, let us stipulate that, for over 2000 years, the Vatican has been a hotbed of intrigue, betrayal, and sanctified ratfcking on a very high scale. (It also has been a hotbed of, well, hot beds, but that's neither here nor there at the moment.) So, if you're one of these people, and you're looking to ratfck the pope's visit to the United States, and to his agenda in general, you'd be looking to put him in a box. So, how would you do that?
Here's what I'd do. I'd arrange for the pope to meet Davis, but not as an American culture war celebrity, but as a devout Christian whose faith is under vague assault. (I would not mention the three marriages or the fact that she took an oath before god to do her job. I mean, why burden the poor old fella with details, right?) I'd shuffle her through the process and she gets some vague words of encouragement from the pope, who otherwise doesn't know her from any other hick who gets sent his way. I'd sit on the news for the entire rest of the pope's trip, even enlisting Davis's publicity-hungry legal team in that effort.
However, as the pope is preparing to go wheels-up in Philadelphia, I'd get the word to a reporter – say, Terry Moran of ABC. On the plane ride home, Moran would ask the pope a vague question about "religious liberty," without mentioning Davis's name, which seems a curious omission for a veteran journalist to make. The pope again would give a fairly anodyne answer about freedom of conscience with which nobody can disagree. Then, with the pope safely back in Rome, I'd leak the news to a conservative Catholic website and wait for the inevitable explosion. (Implicit in this strategy are two facts: a) that the pope doesn't know who Davis is or the facts of her situation, and b) that the Vatican press office will resort to its default position of clumsy semi-stonewalling when the story breaks.) When it comes, lo and behold, Kim Davis gets to give an exclusive interview to ABC, the same network that employs the reporter who asked the question on the airplane. But to pull this off, I'd need someone with serious clout within the Church bureaucracy. And this is where Vigano comes in.
The man is a real player within the institutional church. He first came to prominence as a whistleblower during one of the several investigations of the Vatican Bank, which may be what got him exiled to this godless Republic in the first place. Despite that fact, Vigano is well-known to be a Ratzinger loyalist and he always has been a cultural conservative, particularly on the issue of marriage equality. In April, in a move that was unprecedented, Vigano got involved with an anti-marriage equality march in Washington sponsored by the National Association For Marriage. (And, mirabile dictu, as we say around Castel Gandolfo at happy hour, one of the speakers at this rally was Mat Staver, who happens now to be Kim Davis's lawyer.) In short, Vigano, a Ratzinger loyalist, who has been conspicuous and publicly involved in the same cause as Kim Davis and her legal team, arranges a meeting with Davis that the legal team uses to its great public advantage.
*snip*
And the Vatican press office acted just the way I'd want it to act, if I were the guy setting this up. First, it issues a silly non-denial denial, and then it merely confirms that the meeting occurred. At which point, the office clams up, leaving the story festering out there in the news cycle, and leaving the pope out there in the American culture war to twist in the wind. And, if this scenario is in any way accurate, it had its desired effect. The impact of what the pope actually said and did in America has been fairly well ratfcked.
I'd always assumed it was a political nod to offset some of his more liberal policies to appear more traditional or conservative.
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