Virginia Forces Christian Ministries to Adopt 'Government Ideology' or Pay $100K

[Andylusion]

I disagree with that. My business is my property. I can do with my property as I see fit. If I don't want to serve you because you wear yellow pants, you should not be able to force me to serve you.

Not if you want a business license. Everybody must follow the same rules, no exceptions, no matter what religion they are.

Further, I don't see any evidence that Franklin Graham wants to "force" anyone to do anything.

.

He wants to force us all to accept discrimination against our fellows. He pretends to speak for the Supreme Being. He takes his "my way or the highway" approach out to the general public and seeks to misuse the law to force the rest of us to go along with his views. He even tries to take his message of hate-mongering and scapegoating to other countries. He's nothing but a cheap politician.

Now if you want to play act like you are married with someone that's the same sex, by all means do whatever you want.

It's not playing acting. We live under civil law, not sectarian law, and people are married if they go through the proper legal procedures and secure the proper documentation. To pretend otherwise is play acting. Some have civil weddings and some choose to be married by clergy who have the authority to officiate in a legal marriage; their choice.

"I never claimed that anyone has to be just like me." you followed that up with a litany of screaming and bitching about people who are not like you.

What "screaming and bitching" about people who are not like me did I do? What did I say that would constitute "screaming and bitching"?

The bottom line is, you can do what you want.... but you don't get to force those views on others. Meaning, that if I have a Christian Wedding services company, like wedding cakes, hosting venues, or any other such service.... Christian weddings can't involve same-sex marriages, because same sex marriage doesn't exist in Christianity. We believe G-d created marriage between a man and woman. Period.

Not up for debate.

You cannot say "Christian" without stating what denomination/sect you are in. There is plenty of disagreement among Christians on the matter of same-sex marriages. Some Christian congregations solemnize same-sex marriages and some don't. Just saying "Christian" doesn't cut it. Yes, it IS a matter up for debate, obviously.

Whether left-wingers personally believe that or not, doesn't matter. We believe that and left-wingers claim to be tolerant, so they should shut their mouths, follow what they claim to be, and tolerate people of different views.

If they can't do that, then at least they should admit they are bigots themselves, and that they have no interest in tolerance, and then they at least wouldn't be hypocrites.

Your reference to "left-wingers" switches the topic from Christianity to politics. Christians hold a variety of political opinions; the whole spectrum, but your reference to "we" apparently applies only to those who follow your particular sect and support right-wing politics. You are ordering Christians and those of all faiths who support their fellows regardless of sexual orientation or faith to "shut their mouths," as if no one else has a right to speak except you folks. No thank you. Tolerance applies to you, too. You cannot use your version of the Christian faith as a weapon to attack the rights of people who are outside your congregation/denomination without opposition. I don't know what your version of "tolerance" of your "views" would be.

Not if you want a business license. Everybody must follow the same rules, no exceptions, no matter what religion they are.

Don't need a business license. I've run my own business. Short time for sure, but I have done it. You know how to start a business? You contact people and say "I'm willing to do X, for Y pay".

And quite frankly business licenses are actually evil, and used by bad politicians with political supporters, to allow rich people to keep poor people poor.

Seriously, what do you really think business licenses do? They protect the rich that can afford the time and money to get them, and keep the poor from becoming wealthy. That's it. It's always ironic to hear left-wingers claim they hate politicians propping up the rich, and then spin around and support every possible measure of propping up the rich.

It's not playing acting. We live under civil law, not sectarian law

Whoa whoa whoa.... you are talking to a Christian. I'm a Christian first, before anything. Jesus Christ is the one and only Lord of my life. I follow human laws, only in so far, as they don't conflict with the laws of G-d.

When you say "We", that "We" doesn't include me.

I might wave the American flag, and stand for the national anthem, but that will only last until the flag and the nation, contradicts the laws of G-d. I'm a Christian first, even before I'm an America.

So I don't care what the laws says about myth of same-sex marriage. That doesn't matter to me. You can claim that until the end of my life, and far as I'm concerned, that isn't marriage. Never will be.

And I'll be more than happy to go to jail, for refusing to agree with same sex marriage. There is no "we". There are pagans, who believe whatever they want, and there are Christian who believe what G-d says.

If you want to tolerate different opinions, then practice what you preach. But if not, that doesn't change anything for me.

You cannot say "Christian" without stating what denomination/sect you are in. There is plenty of disagreement among Christians on the matter of same-sex marriages.

Not true. You can say Christian without stating what denomination, because I've been a Christian my whole life, and have never belonged to any denomination or sect.

Fun Fact: Denominations do not exist in Christian doctrine. If you want to read the Bible, and tell me where Baptists, or Methodists are listed, I'll gladly look up whatever reference you want.

Christianity is not based, or dependent on denominations. What is Christianity based on? The Bible. Without the Bible, there is no Christianity.

With that understanding, I don't care what any denomination says, or what disagreements there are. All I need to know, is what the Bible says.

Genesis 19:1–11 G-d rained down judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, which were known for homosexuality.
Leviticus 18:22, 20:13 Condemns homosexuality.

1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and 1 Timothy 1:10 both list homosexuality with other evils like greed, thievery and so on.

Romans 1:26–27, talks about the penalty given for those who turn to homosexuality.

And I could list dozens of verses about what marriage is, which never describes it as between two women, or two men.

So it doesn't matter what disagreements people have. The Bible is clear. The Bible is the word of G-d. That's all there is to it.

Christians hold a variety of political opinions; the whole spectrum, but your reference to "we" apparently applies only to those who follow your particular sect and support right-wing politics.

Yes, I would agree with that.

Jim Gaffigan has a great joke (and he's not a Christian. He's a comedian.). The joke is he stands on stage saying "I'm a vegetarian. Any vegetarians here? Well I'm not a strict vegetarian.... I eat pork and beef, but not fish, because that's disgusting". You can look up his videos on youtube. Very funny.

But the point is.... are you vegetarian, because you said you are? If you eat beef and pork.... are you a vegetarian, because you said you were a vegetarian?

No. Not eating meat..... is a fundamental requirement of being a vegetarian.

Well.... similarly.... being a Christian isn't a pick your own meal buffet. You don't get to pick and choose what you believe. G-d did not send down a survey to find out from us, what we think he should do.

He's G-d. We're not.

So anyone who says "I'm a Christian, and the Bible is wrong about X".... no, the Bible isn't wrong, they are just not Christians.

Just like if you claim to be a vegetarian, and you are eating steak at Texas Roadhouse... no, Vegetarianism isn't wrong about eating steak... you are just not a Vegetarian.

So I agree with your statement above. Christians do not hold a variety of opinions. Those that deny what the Bible clearly says.... are simply not Christians. People do not define what Christianity is. G-d does. If you have a different opinion... that just means you are not Christian.

What did I say that would constitute "screaming and bitching"?

The "fucking busybody asshole" who want to force everyone to be just like them are people like frankie graham and, it seems, you.

You wrote that. Not me.

Christians have varying beliefs. You apparently believe that the bible was written by the Supreme Being and is inerrant and infallible. Not all Christians do, and even among the ones that do, disputes are constant about what this or that passage means. We don't know what criteria Constantine's committee used in choosing which writings to include and which to drop, anyway. Saul/Paul wrote the letters to the Romans and the Corinthians. The writers of Genesis and Leviticus are lost to history.

I don't see many people living according to Leviticus. The closest I can come are the ultra-orthodox Jews. Leviticus is full of animal sacrifices, declaring a woman who has given birth is somehow impure for a length of time, depending on the sex of her child, even though it is the father's contribution to the pregnancy that determines the sex of the child, leprosy, kosher rules, sex rules, and other tidbits like " 9:13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning," "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.," lots of folks who "shall be put to death," rules for slavery, and much more, with caution after caution that one must follow every rule "for I am the LORD your God," so no cherry-picking.

Yes, again I would agree with your statement, that I believe the Bible was written by a Supreme Being and is inerrant and infallible.

Not all Christians do

Then they are not Christian. The inerrant and infallibility of the Bible, is a core fundamental belief of Christianity. Without the Bible, then you are not Christian. It's impossible to be Christian, without the Bible.

I don't see many people living according to Leviticus.

The whole point of the Bible, is that no person can live perfectly. That's why we need a savior. We are all a fallen people, that can't live up to the perfection of G-d. That's whole reason Jesus came to pay the price for sin, so that we can be made clean before G-d.

And FYI, just because people don't live up perfectly to any standard, doesn't mean all standards are discredited.

One person doing something bad, doesn't mean everyone else doing something bad, is perfectly fine.

So just because you personally can't find someone who obeys whatever rule you want to point to, doesn't mean the standard is any different.

That would never work in your own life. If your spouse was cheating on you, and they pointed out that you shoplifted something from the store... would you think... oh well I guess cheating on me is fine?

If someone murdered your spouse, and in court they pointed out the judge was speeding on the way to the court house, would you think well then that judge can't condemn him on murdering?

Of course not. So whether any supposed Christian here or there violates whatever rule, doesn't change the rules. Not relevant.

 

[Lysistrata]

Then they are not Christian. The inerrant and infallibility of the Bible, is a core fundamental belief of Christianity. Without the Bible, then you are not Christian. It's impossible to be Christian, without the Bible.

No. It is not a "core fundamental belief of Christianity". There are differences in versions of the bible. There also are many other ancient writings in the Christian world, and many ended up on the cutting room floor. And what happened to the Gnostic Gospels (such as those of Mary of Magdala, Thomas, Judas), that have been discovered recently, for instance?

The whole point of the Bible, is that no person can live perfectly. That's why we need a savior. We are all a fallen people, that can't live up to the perfection of G-d. That's whole reason Jesus came to pay the price for sin, so that we can be made clean before G-d.

There is quite a long list of rules for you to follow. Vayikra (Leviticus): Full Text

So you basically live it, with a few slip-ups. Do you keep kosher? Are you up to date on your animal sacrifices? Love your neighbor? Work for justice? You are the one claiming that the bible is inerrant and infallible.

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

Complacency in the church is just one more reason for the gradual invasion of the left into America's first principles and social values.

Compromise in general is to blame, but that includes compromise from the church as well.

Yep...look at all the Christians that are stupid enough to vote the left into power. Going against their Christian values.

They're also stupid enough to continue to bankroll the left......
By continuing all those things that fund the left....going to movies, patronizing Leftist businesses like Facebook and Twitter etc.

 

[martybegan]

What the Democrats have in store nationally.

Three Christian schools and a Christian network of pregnancy centers are suing Attorney General Mark Herring (D-Va.) in order to prevent Virginia from implementing two pro-LGBT laws that force “people of faith to adopt a particular government ideology under threat of punishment.” The two laws purport to prevent “discrimination” against LGBT people but, in reality, they force Christian ministries to choose between violating their sincerely held religious beliefs or paying hefty fines, as much as $100,000 per offense.

Virginia Forces Christian Ministries to Adopt 'Government Ideology' or Pay $100K

Are they getting taxpayer funding?

Every social security, medicare, food stamp, public housing, and Obama Phone user is getting tax payer funding.

Should we be able to dictate how every single person who gets money from the government, lives their lives?

Because if that's the standard, then I have a ton of rules I'd like to put in place.

If they get taxpayer funding they need to follow non discrimination laws. You don’t get to pick and choose what laws you want to follow, if you choose to take public funds.

The law is wrong. If you can take medicare, or any other funding, without following my demands about what you do with your life, then neither should any Christian organization.

On top of that, the right to free exercise of religion, is a fundamental aspect of this country. You don't get to demand how we follow our religious beliefs.

Now to be fair, I think we shouldn't have government funding anything. I would prefer a free-market capitalist system.

But if the government is going to hand out money, you don't get to give the money to people, and then after you give them money, say ok no you are required to do everything we want.

No, sorry, that's not how this works. The government is of the people, by the people, and religious people are part of that group.

And if you don't like it.... stuff it. I don't care. Tough. You don't get to be dictator.

Ok.then it is ok to use government funding for abortion?

Again, I'm against government spending money on anything. I prefer a free-market capitalist system.

But specifically as it relates to that..... is murder ok?

If you are telling me murder is fine, then yes it's fine to fund abortion.

If you believe murder is morally wrong... then no, you can't fund murder with my tax money.

Abortion is not considered murder...but ultimately, aren’t you arguing that an institution should be allowed to pick and choose what laws to follow if they accept taxpayer funding? I don’t agree. After all, I am paying them.

By you it isn't. By others it is. By still others it is considered a grave sin.

 

[Andylusion]

Then they are not Christian. The inerrant and infallibility of the Bible, is a core fundamental belief of Christianity. Without the Bible, then you are not Christian. It's impossible to be Christian, without the Bible.

No. It is not a "core fundamental belief of Christianity". There are differences in versions of the bible. There also are many other ancient writings in the Christian world, and many ended up on the cutting room floor. And what happened to the Gnostic Gospels (such as those of Mary of Magdala, Thomas, Judas), that have been discovered recently, for instance?

The whole point of the Bible, is that no person can live perfectly. That's why we need a savior. We are all a fallen people, that can't live up to the perfection of G-d. That's whole reason Jesus came to pay the price for sin, so that we can be made clean before G-d.

There is quite a long list of rules for you to follow. Vayikra (Leviticus): Full Text

So you basically live it, with a few slip-ups. Do you keep kosher? Are you up to date on your animal sacrifices? Love your neighbor? Work for justice? You are the one claiming that the bible is inerrant and infallible.

There are differences in versions of the bible.

Name one significant doctrinal difference between any standard version of the Bible.

There also are many other ancient writings in the Christian world, and many ended up on the cutting room floor.

Yup, they were left on the cutting room floor, as the men of G-d were moved by the spirit of G-d.

And what happened to the Gnostic Gospels (such as those of Mary of Magdala, Thomas, Judas), that have been discovered recently, for instance?

They are not part of the Bible, because the men of G-d, moved by the spirit of G-d, did not include them.

There is quite a long list of rules for you to follow. Vayikra (Leviticus): Full Text

I'm always baffled by pagans that bring up Leviticus, when the Bible specifically and directly addresses gentiles and the Levitical laws. It just seems odd that somehow you can easily find Leviticus and quote it, but you can't find Acts chapter 15, verses 19 and 20, which say.....

“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."​

The even sent a letter about the law of Moses and the Gentiles, in verses 23 through 29, which includes the following:

​

It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.​

So the issue of the Levitical laws, and Gentiles was address roughly 2,000 years ago. Why are you bringing it up now?

Love your neighbor?

Yes.

Work for justice?

Yes.

You are the one claiming that the bible is inerrant and infallible.

Yes.

By the way... let's pretend for a moment that Acts 15 didn't exist, and I was eating Pepperoni on my pizza.

Does me breaking that rule on pork, mean homosexuality isn't a sin?

No. Breaking one rule, doesn't mean it's ok to break all rules. Again, just like you speeding, doesn't mean raping your daughter is ok, because... you break the law too! That is not an argument.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Then they are not Christian. The inerrant and infallibility of the Bible, is a core fundamental belief of Christianity. Without the Bible, then you are not Christian. It's impossible to be Christian, without the Bible.

No. It is not a "core fundamental belief of Christianity". There are differences in versions of the bible. There also are many other ancient writings in the Christian world, and many ended up on the cutting room floor. And what happened to the Gnostic Gospels (such as those of Mary of Magdala, Thomas, Judas), that have been discovered recently, for instance?

The whole point of the Bible, is that no person can live perfectly. That's why we need a savior. We are all a fallen people, that can't live up to the perfection of G-d. That's whole reason Jesus came to pay the price for sin, so that we can be made clean before G-d.

There is quite a long list of rules for you to follow. Vayikra (Leviticus): Full Text

So you basically live it, with a few slip-ups. Do you keep kosher? Are you up to date on your animal sacrifices? Love your neighbor? Work for justice? You are the one claiming that the bible is inerrant and infallible.

Not aware of the new covenant, eh?

You oughtta take a look.

 

[hadit]

I disagree with that. My business is my property. I can do with my property as I see fit. If I don't want to serve you because you wear yellow pants, you should not be able to force me to serve you.

Not if you want a business license. Everybody must follow the same rules, no exceptions, no matter what religion they are.

Further, I don't see any evidence that Franklin Graham wants to "force" anyone to do anything.

.

He wants to force us all to accept discrimination against our fellows. He pretends to speak for the Supreme Being. He takes his "my way or the highway" approach out to the general public and seeks to misuse the law to force the rest of us to go along with his views. He even tries to take his message of hate-mongering and scapegoating to other countries. He's nothing but a cheap politician.

Now if you want to play act like you are married with someone that's the same sex, by all means do whatever you want.

It's not playing acting. We live under civil law, not sectarian law, and people are married if they go through the proper legal procedures and secure the proper documentation. To pretend otherwise is play acting. Some have civil weddings and some choose to be married by clergy who have the authority to officiate in a legal marriage; their choice.

"I never claimed that anyone has to be just like me." you followed that up with a litany of screaming and bitching about people who are not like you.

What "screaming and bitching" about people who are not like me did I do? What did I say that would constitute "screaming and bitching"?

The bottom line is, you can do what you want.... but you don't get to force those views on others. Meaning, that if I have a Christian Wedding services company, like wedding cakes, hosting venues, or any other such service.... Christian weddings can't involve same-sex marriages, because same sex marriage doesn't exist in Christianity. We believe G-d created marriage between a man and woman. Period.

Not up for debate.

You cannot say "Christian" without stating what denomination/sect you are in. There is plenty of disagreement among Christians on the matter of same-sex marriages. Some Christian congregations solemnize same-sex marriages and some don't. Just saying "Christian" doesn't cut it. Yes, it IS a matter up for debate, obviously.

Whether left-wingers personally believe that or not, doesn't matter. We believe that and left-wingers claim to be tolerant, so they should shut their mouths, follow what they claim to be, and tolerate people of different views.

If they can't do that, then at least they should admit they are bigots themselves, and that they have no interest in tolerance, and then they at least wouldn't be hypocrites.

Your reference to "left-wingers" switches the topic from Christianity to politics. Christians hold a variety of political opinions; the whole spectrum, but your reference to "we" apparently applies only to those who follow your particular sect and support right-wing politics. You are ordering Christians and those of all faiths who support their fellows regardless of sexual orientation or faith to "shut their mouths," as if no one else has a right to speak except you folks. No thank you. Tolerance applies to you, too. You cannot use your version of the Christian faith as a weapon to attack the rights of people who are outside your congregation/denomination without opposition. I don't know what your version of "tolerance" of your "views" would be.

Not if you want a business license. Everybody must follow the same rules, no exceptions, no matter what religion they are.

Don't need a business license. I've run my own business. Short time for sure, but I have done it. You know how to start a business? You contact people and say "I'm willing to do X, for Y pay".

And quite frankly business licenses are actually evil, and used by bad politicians with political supporters, to allow rich people to keep poor people poor.

Seriously, what do you really think business licenses do? They protect the rich that can afford the time and money to get them, and keep the poor from becoming wealthy. That's it. It's always ironic to hear left-wingers claim they hate politicians propping up the rich, and then spin around and support every possible measure of propping up the rich.

It's not playing acting. We live under civil law, not sectarian law

Whoa whoa whoa.... you are talking to a Christian. I'm a Christian first, before anything. Jesus Christ is the one and only Lord of my life. I follow human laws, only in so far, as they don't conflict with the laws of G-d.

When you say "We", that "We" doesn't include me.

I might wave the American flag, and stand for the national anthem, but that will only last until the flag and the nation, contradicts the laws of G-d. I'm a Christian first, even before I'm an America.

So I don't care what the laws says about myth of same-sex marriage. That doesn't matter to me. You can claim that until the end of my life, and far as I'm concerned, that isn't marriage. Never will be.

And I'll be more than happy to go to jail, for refusing to agree with same sex marriage. There is no "we". There are pagans, who believe whatever they want, and there are Christian who believe what G-d says.

If you want to tolerate different opinions, then practice what you preach. But if not, that doesn't change anything for me.

You cannot say "Christian" without stating what denomination/sect you are in. There is plenty of disagreement among Christians on the matter of same-sex marriages.

Not true. You can say Christian without stating what denomination, because I've been a Christian my whole life, and have never belonged to any denomination or sect.

Fun Fact: Denominations do not exist in Christian doctrine. If you want to read the Bible, and tell me where Baptists, or Methodists are listed, I'll gladly look up whatever reference you want.

Christianity is not based, or dependent on denominations. What is Christianity based on? The Bible. Without the Bible, there is no Christianity.

With that understanding, I don't care what any denomination says, or what disagreements there are. All I need to know, is what the Bible says.

Genesis 19:1–11 G-d rained down judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, which were known for homosexuality.
Leviticus 18:22, 20:13 Condemns homosexuality.

1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and 1 Timothy 1:10 both list homosexuality with other evils like greed, thievery and so on.

Romans 1:26–27, talks about the penalty given for those who turn to homosexuality.

And I could list dozens of verses about what marriage is, which never describes it as between two women, or two men.

So it doesn't matter what disagreements people have. The Bible is clear. The Bible is the word of G-d. That's all there is to it.

Christians hold a variety of political opinions; the whole spectrum, but your reference to "we" apparently applies only to those who follow your particular sect and support right-wing politics.

Yes, I would agree with that.

Jim Gaffigan has a great joke (and he's not a Christian. He's a comedian.). The joke is he stands on stage saying "I'm a vegetarian. Any vegetarians here? Well I'm not a strict vegetarian.... I eat pork and beef, but not fish, because that's disgusting". You can look up his videos on youtube. Very funny.

But the point is.... are you vegetarian, because you said you are? If you eat beef and pork.... are you a vegetarian, because you said you were a vegetarian?

No. Not eating meat..... is a fundamental requirement of being a vegetarian.

Well.... similarly.... being a Christian isn't a pick your own meal buffet. You don't get to pick and choose what you believe. G-d did not send down a survey to find out from us, what we think he should do.

He's G-d. We're not.

So anyone who says "I'm a Christian, and the Bible is wrong about X".... no, the Bible isn't wrong, they are just not Christians.

Just like if you claim to be a vegetarian, and you are eating steak at Texas Roadhouse... no, Vegetarianism isn't wrong about eating steak... you are just not a Vegetarian.

So I agree with your statement above. Christians do not hold a variety of opinions. Those that deny what the Bible clearly says.... are simply not Christians. People do not define what Christianity is. G-d does. If you have a different opinion... that just means you are not Christian.

What did I say that would constitute "screaming and bitching"?

The "fucking busybody asshole" who want to force everyone to be just like them are people like frankie graham and, it seems, you.

You wrote that. Not me.

Christians have varying beliefs. You apparently believe that the bible was written by the Supreme Being and is inerrant and infallible. Not all Christians do, and even among the ones that do, disputes are constant about what this or that passage means. We don't know what criteria Constantine's committee used in choosing which writings to include and which to drop, anyway. Saul/Paul wrote the letters to the Romans and the Corinthians. The writers of Genesis and Leviticus are lost to history.

I don't see many people living according to Leviticus. The closest I can come are the ultra-orthodox Jews. Leviticus is full of animal sacrifices, declaring a woman who has given birth is somehow impure for a length of time, depending on the sex of her child, even though it is the father's contribution to the pregnancy that determines the sex of the child, leprosy, kosher rules, sex rules, and other tidbits like " 9:13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning," "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.," lots of folks who "shall be put to death," rules for slavery, and much more, with caution after caution that one must follow every rule "for I am the LORD your God," so no cherry-picking.

That's because within the first century the Church (then majority Jewish) decided that Gentiles should not be expected to live under Mosaic law, but were free in Christ. In fact, the Jews were also free in Christ, but many were not mature enough to grasp that and be free.

 

[DustyInfinity]

Discrimination is not part of our American values. Discrimination against LGBTs is part of the "Christian values" only of certain varieties of the Christian faith. Not all. Nor are people of various religions entitled to more or superior rights to those to which other citizens are entitled, regardless of who they are. Every member of every religion must come to terms with how to observe the tenets of their faith and the requirements of the law simultaneously. There is no reason to allow anyone to transfer this burden onto other people. People forget that in cases such as these, LGBTs would bear the burden of a "government ideology," even though they are not responsible for what someone else believes.

Lots of words for forcing your beliefs on a religious organization despite their beliefs to the contrary.

Compromise is not possible with SJW morons like you, if it were we would all be better off.

How do you "compromise" when all it means is that everybody has to bow down to you? These shit-for-brains types are trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us. Sorry, we don't scapegoat a whole group of people or try to exclude them from general society just because some cults don't like them. LGBTs are NOT RESPONSIBLE for whatever beliefs someone else chooses to have. Beliefs are a choice. They should not become a government ideology. BTW: I'm proud to be an "SJW." It sure beats the alternative of being a warrior for social injustice.

How is forcing a church or religious school to hire say a secretary who lives a lifestyle that doesn't agree with said church or schools teachings making everyone "bow down"

This is the same bullshit as forcing the bakers to bake for Same sex weddings, it's not about fairness, it's about forced acceptance.

The force here is on the government, not on the school or church.

SJW's are today's fascists, really something to be proud of. You are just as bad as those Moral Majority assholes back in the 80's going after rock music.

Would you have the same response if someone refused to hire a Southern Baptist based on the chosen lifestyle of members of this "Christian" denomination, their love of discrimination, and their attacks on the rights of others, or refused to bake a cake for them?

/—-/ Why must you resort to Strawman arguments? Any fake outrage over Muslim bakers who refuse to bake cakes for Gaye weddings? How about the Gaye baker who refuses to bake a cake inscribed homosexuality is a sin?

Seriously, would you tell Muslims to cater gay weddings or get fined? Does your hatred only pertain to Christians?

 

[hadit]

Then they are not Christian. The inerrant and infallibility of the Bible, is a core fundamental belief of Christianity. Without the Bible, then you are not Christian. It's impossible to be Christian, without the Bible.

No. It is not a "core fundamental belief of Christianity". There are differences in versions of the bible. There also are many other ancient writings in the Christian world, and many ended up on the cutting room floor. And what happened to the Gnostic Gospels (such as those of Mary of Magdala, Thomas, Judas), that have been discovered recently, for instance?

The whole point of the Bible, is that no person can live perfectly. That's why we need a savior. We are all a fallen people, that can't live up to the perfection of G-d. That's whole reason Jesus came to pay the price for sin, so that we can be made clean before G-d.

There is quite a long list of rules for you to follow. Vayikra (Leviticus): Full Text

So you basically live it, with a few slip-ups. Do you keep kosher? Are you up to date on your animal sacrifices? Love your neighbor? Work for justice? You are the one claiming that the bible is inerrant and infallible.

Not aware of the new covenant, eh?

You oughtta take a look.

Interesting that they ALL know about Leviticus, but NONE seem to know about Act 15:10.

 

[Lysistrata]

Then they are not Christian. The inerrant and infallibility of the Bible, is a core fundamental belief of Christianity. Without the Bible, then you are not Christian. It's impossible to be Christian, without the Bible.

No. It is not a "core fundamental belief of Christianity". There are differences in versions of the bible. There also are many other ancient writings in the Christian world, and many ended up on the cutting room floor. And what happened to the Gnostic Gospels (such as those of Mary of Magdala, Thomas, Judas), that have been discovered recently, for instance?

The whole point of the Bible, is that no person can live perfectly. That's why we need a savior. We are all a fallen people, that can't live up to the perfection of G-d. That's whole reason Jesus came to pay the price for sin, so that we can be made clean before G-d.

There is quite a long list of rules for you to follow. Vayikra (Leviticus): Full Text

So you basically live it, with a few slip-ups. Do you keep kosher? Are you up to date on your animal sacrifices? Love your neighbor? Work for justice? You are the one claiming that the bible is inerrant and infallible.

Not aware of the new covenant, eh?

You oughtta take a look.

Interesting that they ALL know about Leviticus, but NONE seem to know about Act 15:10.

I was not the first to bring up Leviticus. This "new covenant" interpretation appears to be popular in some protestant circles.

 

[hadit]

Then they are not Christian. The inerrant and infallibility of the Bible, is a core fundamental belief of Christianity. Without the Bible, then you are not Christian. It's impossible to be Christian, without the Bible.

No. It is not a "core fundamental belief of Christianity". There are differences in versions of the bible. There also are many other ancient writings in the Christian world, and many ended up on the cutting room floor. And what happened to the Gnostic Gospels (such as those of Mary of Magdala, Thomas, Judas), that have been discovered recently, for instance?

The whole point of the Bible, is that no person can live perfectly. That's why we need a savior. We are all a fallen people, that can't live up to the perfection of G-d. That's whole reason Jesus came to pay the price for sin, so that we can be made clean before G-d.

There is quite a long list of rules for you to follow. Vayikra (Leviticus): Full Text

So you basically live it, with a few slip-ups. Do you keep kosher? Are you up to date on your animal sacrifices? Love your neighbor? Work for justice? You are the one claiming that the bible is inerrant and infallible.

Not aware of the new covenant, eh?

You oughtta take a look.

Interesting that they ALL know about Leviticus, but NONE seem to know about Act 15:10.

I was not the first to bring up Leviticus. This "new covenant" interpretation appears to be popular in some protestant circles.

What does it matter who brought it up first in this context? The point is that Christians do not live by Leviticus. We are free in Christ to live by the Spirit, not the Law.

Since Jesus introduced the New Covenant, and Christians follow Jesus, I can see why it is "popular", LOL. Were you familiar with Acts 15, especially verse 10? Almost without exception, Christophobes who wail about Leviticus have no idea that the first century Jewish Christian Church did NOT saddle new believers with the Mosaic Law.

 

[Andylusion]

Then they are not Christian. The inerrant and infallibility of the Bible, is a core fundamental belief of Christianity. Without the Bible, then you are not Christian. It's impossible to be Christian, without the Bible.

No. It is not a "core fundamental belief of Christianity". There are differences in versions of the bible. There also are many other ancient writings in the Christian world, and many ended up on the cutting room floor. And what happened to the Gnostic Gospels (such as those of Mary of Magdala, Thomas, Judas), that have been discovered recently, for instance?

The whole point of the Bible, is that no person can live perfectly. That's why we need a savior. We are all a fallen people, that can't live up to the perfection of G-d. That's whole reason Jesus came to pay the price for sin, so that we can be made clean before G-d.

There is quite a long list of rules for you to follow. Vayikra (Leviticus): Full Text

So you basically live it, with a few slip-ups. Do you keep kosher? Are you up to date on your animal sacrifices? Love your neighbor? Work for justice? You are the one claiming that the bible is inerrant and infallible.

Not aware of the new covenant, eh?

You oughtta take a look.

Interesting that they ALL know about Leviticus, but NONE seem to know about Act 15:10.

I was not the first to bring up Leviticus. This "new covenant" interpretation appears to be popular in some protestant circles.

It's not 'interpretation'. The Bible says specifically and directly:

“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."​

​

"It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."​

Acts chapter 15 covers this.

 

[easyt65]

What the Democrats have in store nationally.

Three Christian schools and a Christian network of pregnancy centers are suing Attorney General Mark Herring (D-Va.) in order to prevent Virginia from implementing two pro-LGBT laws that force “people of faith to adopt a particular government ideology under threat of punishment.” The two laws purport to prevent “discrimination” against LGBT people but, in reality, they force Christian ministries to choose between violating their sincerely held religious beliefs or paying hefty fines, as much as $100,000 per offense.

Virginia Forces Christian Ministries to Adopt 'Government Ideology' or Pay $100K

If true, the USSC will destroy this.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Complacency in the church is just one more reason for the gradual invasion of the left into America's first principles and social values.

Compromise in general is to blame, but that includes compromise from the church as well.

Yep...look at all the Christians that are stupid enough to vote the left into power. Going against their Christian values.

Not only do some self-professed Christians vote Democrat, but most of the rest roll over for the moonbats.

Christians used to be much more outspoken than they are now. It's like that 1954 law that stifled the clergy also by association stifled the flocks.

Far too many people think that the central tenet of Christianity is "Be nice". And they are so afraid of being perceived as not-nice that they will violate every ACTUAL tenet of Christianity in order to avoid it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Discrimination is not part of our American values. Discrimination against LGBTs is part of the "Christian values" only of certain varieties of the Christian faith. Not all. Nor are people of various religions entitled to more or superior rights to those to which other citizens are entitled, regardless of who they are. Every member of every religion must come to terms with how to observe the tenets of their faith and the requirements of the law simultaneously. There is no reason to allow anyone to transfer this burden onto other people. People forget that in cases such as these, LGBTs would bear the burden of a "government ideology," even though they are not responsible for what someone else believes.

BS. "I don't like this, so that makes it Unamerican!" So very tired of this line from the left, a group of people who spend most of their time telling us how much America and anything American sucks and is evil. Oh, but now we're supposed to view you asshats as experts who can dictate "American values" to us?

America is about freedom, including the freedom to disagree with you, disapprove of you, and not want to associate with you. I suggest that it's high past time you grow the fuck up and stop whining to Daddy Government to make the other kids play with you.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

I disagree with that. My business is my property. I can do with my property as I see fit. If I don't want to serve you because you wear yellow pants, you should not be able to force me to serve you.

Not if you want a business license. Everybody must follow the same rules, no exceptions, no matter what religion they are.

Further, I don't see any evidence that Franklin Graham wants to "force" anyone to do anything.

.

He wants to force us all to accept discrimination against our fellows. He pretends to speak for the Supreme Being. He takes his "my way or the highway" approach out to the general public and seeks to misuse the law to force the rest of us to go along with his views. He even tries to take his message of hate-mongering and scapegoating to other countries. He's nothing but a cheap politician.

Now if you want to play act like you are married with someone that's the same sex, by all means do whatever you want.

It's not playing acting. We live under civil law, not sectarian law, and people are married if they go through the proper legal procedures and secure the proper documentation. To pretend otherwise is play acting. Some have civil weddings and some choose to be married by clergy who have the authority to officiate in a legal marriage; their choice.

"I never claimed that anyone has to be just like me." you followed that up with a litany of screaming and bitching about people who are not like you.

What "screaming and bitching" about people who are not like me did I do? What did I say that would constitute "screaming and bitching"?

The bottom line is, you can do what you want.... but you don't get to force those views on others. Meaning, that if I have a Christian Wedding services company, like wedding cakes, hosting venues, or any other such service.... Christian weddings can't involve same-sex marriages, because same sex marriage doesn't exist in Christianity. We believe G-d created marriage between a man and woman. Period.

Not up for debate.

You cannot say "Christian" without stating what denomination/sect you are in. There is plenty of disagreement among Christians on the matter of same-sex marriages. Some Christian congregations solemnize same-sex marriages and some don't. Just saying "Christian" doesn't cut it. Yes, it IS a matter up for debate, obviously.

Whether left-wingers personally believe that or not, doesn't matter. We believe that and left-wingers claim to be tolerant, so they should shut their mouths, follow what they claim to be, and tolerate people of different views.

If they can't do that, then at least they should admit they are bigots themselves, and that they have no interest in tolerance, and then they at least wouldn't be hypocrites.

Your reference to "left-wingers" switches the topic from Christianity to politics. Christians hold a variety of political opinions; the whole spectrum, but your reference to "we" apparently applies only to those who follow your particular sect and support right-wing politics. You are ordering Christians and those of all faiths who support their fellows regardless of sexual orientation or faith to "shut their mouths," as if no one else has a right to speak except you folks. No thank you. Tolerance applies to you, too. You cannot use your version of the Christian faith as a weapon to attack the rights of people who are outside your congregation/denomination without opposition. I don't know what your version of "tolerance" of your "views" would be.

Not if you want a business license. Everybody must follow the same rules, no exceptions, no matter what religion they are.

Don't need a business license. I've run my own business. Short time for sure, but I have done it. You know how to start a business? You contact people and say "I'm willing to do X, for Y pay".

And quite frankly business licenses are actually evil, and used by bad politicians with political supporters, to allow rich people to keep poor people poor.

Seriously, what do you really think business licenses do? They protect the rich that can afford the time and money to get them, and keep the poor from becoming wealthy. That's it. It's always ironic to hear left-wingers claim they hate politicians propping up the rich, and then spin around and support every possible measure of propping up the rich.

It's not playing acting. We live under civil law, not sectarian law

Whoa whoa whoa.... you are talking to a Christian. I'm a Christian first, before anything. Jesus Christ is the one and only Lord of my life. I follow human laws, only in so far, as they don't conflict with the laws of G-d.

When you say "We", that "We" doesn't include me.

I might wave the American flag, and stand for the national anthem, but that will only last until the flag and the nation, contradicts the laws of G-d. I'm a Christian first, even before I'm an America.

So I don't care what the laws says about myth of same-sex marriage. That doesn't matter to me. You can claim that until the end of my life, and far as I'm concerned, that isn't marriage. Never will be.

And I'll be more than happy to go to jail, for refusing to agree with same sex marriage. There is no "we". There are pagans, who believe whatever they want, and there are Christian who believe what G-d says.

If you want to tolerate different opinions, then practice what you preach. But if not, that doesn't change anything for me.

You cannot say "Christian" without stating what denomination/sect you are in. There is plenty of disagreement among Christians on the matter of same-sex marriages.

Not true. You can say Christian without stating what denomination, because I've been a Christian my whole life, and have never belonged to any denomination or sect.

Fun Fact: Denominations do not exist in Christian doctrine. If you want to read the Bible, and tell me where Baptists, or Methodists are listed, I'll gladly look up whatever reference you want.

Christianity is not based, or dependent on denominations. What is Christianity based on? The Bible. Without the Bible, there is no Christianity.

With that understanding, I don't care what any denomination says, or what disagreements there are. All I need to know, is what the Bible says.

Genesis 19:1–11 G-d rained down judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, which were known for homosexuality.
Leviticus 18:22, 20:13 Condemns homosexuality.

1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and 1 Timothy 1:10 both list homosexuality with other evils like greed, thievery and so on.

Romans 1:26–27, talks about the penalty given for those who turn to homosexuality.

And I could list dozens of verses about what marriage is, which never describes it as between two women, or two men.

So it doesn't matter what disagreements people have. The Bible is clear. The Bible is the word of G-d. That's all there is to it.

Christians hold a variety of political opinions; the whole spectrum, but your reference to "we" apparently applies only to those who follow your particular sect and support right-wing politics.

Yes, I would agree with that.

Jim Gaffigan has a great joke (and he's not a Christian. He's a comedian.). The joke is he stands on stage saying "I'm a vegetarian. Any vegetarians here? Well I'm not a strict vegetarian.... I eat pork and beef, but not fish, because that's disgusting". You can look up his videos on youtube. Very funny.

But the point is.... are you vegetarian, because you said you are? If you eat beef and pork.... are you a vegetarian, because you said you were a vegetarian?

No. Not eating meat..... is a fundamental requirement of being a vegetarian.

Well.... similarly.... being a Christian isn't a pick your own meal buffet. You don't get to pick and choose what you believe. G-d did not send down a survey to find out from us, what we think he should do.

He's G-d. We're not.

So anyone who says "I'm a Christian, and the Bible is wrong about X".... no, the Bible isn't wrong, they are just not Christians.

Just like if you claim to be a vegetarian, and you are eating steak at Texas Roadhouse... no, Vegetarianism isn't wrong about eating steak... you are just not a Vegetarian.

So I agree with your statement above. Christians do not hold a variety of opinions. Those that deny what the Bible clearly says.... are simply not Christians. People do not define what Christianity is. G-d does. If you have a different opinion... that just means you are not Christian.

What did I say that would constitute "screaming and bitching"?

The "fucking busybody asshole" who want to force everyone to be just like them are people like frankie graham and, it seems, you.

You wrote that. Not me.

Christians have varying beliefs. You apparently believe that the bible was written by the Supreme Being and is inerrant and infallible. Not all Christians do, and even among the ones that do, disputes are constant about what this or that passage means. We don't know what criteria Constantine's committee used in choosing which writings to include and which to drop, anyway. Saul/Paul wrote the letters to the Romans and the Corinthians. The writers of Genesis and Leviticus are lost to history.

I don't see many people living according to Leviticus. The closest I can come are the ultra-orthodox Jews. Leviticus is full of animal sacrifices, declaring a woman who has given birth is somehow impure for a length of time, depending on the sex of her child, even though it is the father's contribution to the pregnancy that determines the sex of the child, leprosy, kosher rules, sex rules, and other tidbits like " 9:13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning," "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.," lots of folks who "shall be put to death," rules for slavery, and much more, with caution after caution that one must follow every rule "for I am the LORD your God," so no cherry-picking.

Yes, again I would agree with your statement, that I believe the Bible was written by a Supreme Being and is inerrant and infallible.

Not all Christians do

Then they are not Christian. The inerrant and infallibility of the Bible, is a core fundamental belief of Christianity. Without the Bible, then you are not Christian. It's impossible to be Christian, without the Bible.

I don't see many people living according to Leviticus.

The whole point of the Bible, is that no person can live perfectly. That's why we need a savior. We are all a fallen people, that can't live up to the perfection of G-d. That's whole reason Jesus came to pay the price for sin, so that we can be made clean before G-d.

And FYI, just because people don't live up perfectly to any standard, doesn't mean all standards are discredited.

One person doing something bad, doesn't mean everyone else doing something bad, is perfectly fine.

So just because you personally can't find someone who obeys whatever rule you want to point to, doesn't mean the standard is any different.

That would never work in your own life. If your spouse was cheating on you, and they pointed out that you shoplifted something from the store... would you think... oh well I guess cheating on me is fine?

If someone murdered your spouse, and in court they pointed out the judge was speeding on the way to the court house, would you think well then that judge can't condemn him on murdering?

Of course not. So whether any supposed Christian here or there violates whatever rule, doesn't change the rules. Not relevant.

Leviticus is Old Testament and Old Covenant, done away with the New Covenant.

You're dealing with a know nothing

 

[Cecilie1200]

Discrimination is not part of our American values. Discrimination against LGBTs is part of the "Christian values" only of certain varieties of the Christian faith. Not all. Nor are people of various religions entitled to more or superior rights to those to which other citizens are entitled, regardless of who they are. Every member of every religion must come to terms with how to observe the tenets of their faith and the requirements of the law simultaneously. There is no reason to allow anyone to transfer this burden onto other people. People forget that in cases such as these, LGBTs would bear the burden of a "government ideology," even though they are not responsible for what someone else believes.

Lots of words for forcing your beliefs on a religious organization despite their beliefs to the contrary.

Compromise is not possible with SJW morons like you, if it were we would all be better off.

How do you "compromise" when all it means is that everybody has to bow down to you? These shit-for-brains types are trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us. Sorry, we don't scapegoat a whole group of people or try to exclude them from general society just because some cults don't like them. LGBTs are NOT RESPONSIBLE for whatever beliefs someone else chooses to have. Beliefs are a choice. They should not become a government ideology. BTW: I'm proud to be an "SJW." It sure beats the alternative of being a warrior for social injustice.

That's what WE keep asking. The only compromise leftists like you know is "Everyone immediately proclaim me correct and do what I say", followed by a lot of whining about how YOU are the victim.

Only someone with the entitled mindset of a spoiled four-year-old could consider it "forcing religion on you" merely for people to be religious somewhere in the world in a way that you don't like.

"I'm proud to be an SJW" = I've finally found a way to be an oppressive asshole while pretending I'm a good person.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Discrimination is not part of our American values. Discrimination against LGBTs is part of the "Christian values" only of certain varieties of the Christian faith. Not all. Nor are people of various religions entitled to more or superior rights to those to which other citizens are entitled, regardless of who they are. Every member of every religion must come to terms with how to observe the tenets of their faith and the requirements of the law simultaneously. There is no reason to allow anyone to transfer this burden onto other people. People forget that in cases such as these, LGBTs would bear the burden of a "government ideology," even though they are not responsible for what someone else believes.

Lots of words for forcing your beliefs on a religious organization despite their beliefs to the contrary.

Compromise is not possible with SJW morons like you, if it were we would all be better off.

How do you "compromise" when all it means is that everybody has to bow down to you? These shit-for-brains types are trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us. Sorry, we don't scapegoat a whole group of people or try to exclude them from general society just because some cults don't like them. LGBTs are NOT RESPONSIBLE for whatever beliefs someone else chooses to have. Beliefs are a choice. They should not become a government ideology. BTW: I'm proud to be an "SJW." It sure beats the alternative of being a warrior for social injustice.

How is forcing a church or religious school to hire say a secretary who lives a lifestyle that doesn't agree with said church or schools teachings making everyone "bow down"

This is the same bullshit as forcing the bakers to bake for Same sex weddings, it's not about fairness, it's about forced acceptance.

The force here is on the government, not on the school or church.

SJW's are today's fascists, really something to be proud of. You are just as bad as those Moral Majority assholes back in the 80's going after rock music.

Would you have the same response if someone refused to hire a Southern Baptist based on the chosen lifestyle of members of this "Christian" denomination, their love of discrimination, and their attacks on the rights of others, or refused to bake a cake for them?

"Well, I just know you have situational ethics and are a hypocrite, because I am and I'm sure everyone's like me!"

Yes, ass clown, if a Southern Baptist was dumb enough to try to get a job someplace that was diametrically opposed to Baptists and would consider hiring him/her to be a violation of their own beliefs, we would tell that Baptist to quit being ridiculous and go apply somewhere else. Because that's what grownups do. They don't file lawsuits demanding that other people's beliefs change to suit them, and whine about how it's "an attack on the rights of others" for them to dare to believe something else.

Your entire case is that you feel persecuted by the knowledge that people are being allowed to believe something you don't approve of. You are the bully you're crying about everyone else being. You are all of the things you pretend you're fighting against. Congratulations. The vaunted "cause" you fight for is to make others miserable so they can be just like you.

 

[TroglocratsRdumb]

What the Democrats have in store nationally.

Three Christian schools and a Christian network of pregnancy centers are suing Attorney General Mark Herring (D-Va.) in order to prevent Virginia from implementing two pro-LGBT laws that force “people of faith to adopt a particular government ideology under threat of punishment.” The two laws purport to prevent “discrimination” against LGBT people but, in reality, they force Christian ministries to choose between violating their sincerely held religious beliefs or paying hefty fines, as much as $100,000 per offense.

Virginia Forces Christian Ministries to Adopt 'Government Ideology' or Pay $100K

Most Democrats are angry ignorant Bigots who are intolerant of Christians.
They also do not accept the 1st amendment right to Freedom of Religion.
VA will be sued and lose.
This another great reason to keep Antifocrats off of the Supreme Court

 

[Cecilie1200]

Would you have the same response if someone refused to hire a Southern Baptist based on the chosen lifestyle of members of this "Christian" denomination, their love of discrimination, and their attacks on the rights of others, or refused to bake a cake for them?

So you think Planned Parenthood should have to hire anit-abortionist to be counselors in their clinics? Really?????????????

.

No. An anti-abortion person would, by definition, not be neutral on the abortion issue, and therefore, would not be able to meet the requirements of the job.

But a person who doesn't share the beliefs of a church is going to be able to meet the requirements of working for that church?