Vietnam War

[Tommy Tainant]

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I recently just watched all ten, 1 hr 20 min, installments of the PBS documentary; The Vietnam War. Very sobering. It's funny how the US is now making those same damn mistakes in the ME right now.

You dont see the protests these days. Is it because it is on a smaller scale or perhaps there is support for the current intiiatives ?

 

[Windparadox]

You dont see the protests these days. Is it because it is on a smaller scale or perhaps there is support for the current intiiatives ?

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I'm not referring to the protests per se. Americans have become so ignorant, deluded and self-centered, the idea of war and the horrors of war, mean nothing to them. But perhaps that is a good point, the 60s/70s appears to be the last gasp of the American conscience. So long as or troops death count is so low, no one cares, left or right.

 

[Ringel05]

Just watching Ken Burns doc on the bbc.

I will have to watch it again when the house is quieter.

But at first glance it does seem that a lot of brave young men were let down badly by the politicians and the Generals.

I dont know if the doc is accurate but the impression given is that they just didnt have a clue.

My knowledge of the conflict is poor and mainly taken from the movies.

How did it go so badly ?

Actually the ground war went well we destroyed the insurgents in the 67 tet offensive after that every supposed insurgent was actually a North Vietnamese Regular shipped in. We did not lose until the politicians gave up.

The politicians looked to be out of their depth. Puzzled because it wasnt a quick win. Afghanistan ?

The only thing that we got wrong in Afghanistan was getting distracted by Iraq drawing valuable resources away from Afghanistan which allowed the Taliban and al-Qaida to regroup into somewhat effective guerrilla organizations. If we had kept up the pressure that would have been a different story, they would have been completely neutralized being trapped in the mountains under constant attack and unable to respond in any real significant manner and eventually starved out.
Al-Qaida and Bin-Laden wanted the US (and our western allies) to invade somewhere in the ME, Iran or Iraq because they believed the whole of the Muslim ME would rise up against us with all the holy places in those two countries. What they didn't want or expect was our going after them in Afghanistan, a relatively insignificant country as far as even Muslims are concerned, that took them by surprise.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

You dont see the protests these days. Is it because it is on a smaller scale or perhaps there is support for the current intiiatives ?

`
I'm not referring to the protests per se. Americans have become so ignorant, deluded and self-centered, the idea of war and the horrors of war, mean nothing to them. But perhaps that is a good point, the 60s/70s appears to be the last gasp of the American conscience. So long as or troops death count is so low, no one cares, left or right.

Its strange that the Iraq war is seen as toxic over here but not so much in the US.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Just watching Ken Burns doc on the bbc.

I will have to watch it again when the house is quieter.

But at first glance it does seem that a lot of brave young men were let down badly by the politicians and the Generals.

I dont know if the doc is accurate but the impression given is that they just didnt have a clue.

My knowledge of the conflict is poor and mainly taken from the movies.

How did it go so badly ?

Actually the ground war went well we destroyed the insurgents in the 67 tet offensive after that every supposed insurgent was actually a North Vietnamese Regular shipped in. We did not lose until the politicians gave up.

The politicians looked to be out of their depth. Puzzled because it wasnt a quick win. Afghanistan ?

The only thing that we got wrong in Afghanistan was getting distracted by Iraq drawing valuable resources away from Afghanistan which allowed the Taliban and al-Qaida to regroup into somewhat effective guerrilla organizations. If we had kept up the pressure that would have been a different story, they would have been completely neutralized being trapped in the mountains under constant attack and unable to respond in any real significant manner and eventually starved out.
Al-Qaida and Bin-Laden wanted the US (and our western allies) to invade somewhere in the ME, Iran or Iraq because they believed the whole of the Muslim ME would rise up against us with all the holy places in those two countries. What they didn't want or expect was our going after them in Afghanistan, a relatively insignificant country as far as even Muslims are concerned, that took them by surprise.

Nobody wins in the Stan.

 

[Ringel05]

Just watching Ken Burns doc on the bbc.

I will have to watch it again when the house is quieter.

But at first glance it does seem that a lot of brave young men were let down badly by the politicians and the Generals.

I dont know if the doc is accurate but the impression given is that they just didnt have a clue.

My knowledge of the conflict is poor and mainly taken from the movies.

How did it go so badly ?

Actually the ground war went well we destroyed the insurgents in the 67 tet offensive after that every supposed insurgent was actually a North Vietnamese Regular shipped in. We did not lose until the politicians gave up.

The politicians looked to be out of their depth. Puzzled because it wasnt a quick win. Afghanistan ?

The only thing that we got wrong in Afghanistan was getting distracted by Iraq drawing valuable resources away from Afghanistan which allowed the Taliban and al-Qaida to regroup into somewhat effective guerrilla organizations. If we had kept up the pressure that would have been a different story, they would have been completely neutralized being trapped in the mountains under constant attack and unable to respond in any real significant manner and eventually starved out.
Al-Qaida and Bin-Laden wanted the US (and our western allies) to invade somewhere in the ME, Iran or Iraq because they believed the whole of the Muslim ME would rise up against us with all the holy places in those two countries. What they didn't want or expect was our going after them in Afghanistan, a relatively insignificant country as far as even Muslims are concerned, that took them by surprise.

Nobody wins in the Stan.

No, the coalition simply replaced the repressive Taliban with a tribal leader which should eventually fall apart but so far hasn't. With the election in 2014 and Ahmadzai swearing in his rival as Vice President averting potential conflict between north and south Afghanistan things are looking promising. Of course there is still the Taliban who are only strong enough to apply the occasional terror tactics but that's to be expected. Whether the north-south political coalition survives is yet to be seen, Afghanistan is still heavily tribal.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Just watching Ken Burns doc on the bbc.

I will have to watch it again when the house is quieter.

But at first glance it does seem that a lot of brave young men were let down badly by the politicians and the Generals.

I dont know if the doc is accurate but the impression given is that they just didnt have a clue.

My knowledge of the conflict is poor and mainly taken from the movies.

How did it go so badly ?

Actually the ground war went well we destroyed the insurgents in the 67 tet offensive after that every supposed insurgent was actually a North Vietnamese Regular shipped in. We did not lose until the politicians gave up.

The politicians looked to be out of their depth. Puzzled because it wasnt a quick win. Afghanistan ?

The only thing that we got wrong in Afghanistan was getting distracted by Iraq drawing valuable resources away from Afghanistan which allowed the Taliban and al-Qaida to regroup into somewhat effective guerrilla organizations. If we had kept up the pressure that would have been a different story, they would have been completely neutralized being trapped in the mountains under constant attack and unable to respond in any real significant manner and eventually starved out.
Al-Qaida and Bin-Laden wanted the US (and our western allies) to invade somewhere in the ME, Iran or Iraq because they believed the whole of the Muslim ME would rise up against us with all the holy places in those two countries. What they didn't want or expect was our going after them in Afghanistan, a relatively insignificant country as far as even Muslims are concerned, that took them by surprise.

Nobody wins in the Stan.

No, the coalition simply replaced the repressive Taliban with a tribal leader which should eventually fall apart but so far hasn't. With the election in 2014 and Ahmadzai swearing in his rival as Vice President averting potential conflict between north and south Afghanistan things are looking promising. Of course there is still the Taliban who are only strong enough to apply the occasional terror tactics but that's to be expected. Whether the north-south political coalition survives is yet to be seen, Afghanistan is still heavily tribal.

Fingers crossed. It will take a while to reverse 50 years of savagery.
1960’s Afghanistan Was Very Different Before The Taliban

 

[Wry Catcher]

Just watching Ken Burns doc on the bbc.

I will have to watch it again when the house is quieter.

But at first glance it does seem that a lot of brave young men were let down badly by the politicians and the Generals.

I dont know if the doc is accurate but the impression given is that they just didnt have a clue.

My knowledge of the conflict is poor and mainly taken from the movies.

How did it go so badly ?

It is very accurate.

 

[Ringel05]

Actually the ground war went well we destroyed the insurgents in the 67 tet offensive after that every supposed insurgent was actually a North Vietnamese Regular shipped in. We did not lose until the politicians gave up.

The politicians looked to be out of their depth. Puzzled because it wasnt a quick win. Afghanistan ?

The only thing that we got wrong in Afghanistan was getting distracted by Iraq drawing valuable resources away from Afghanistan which allowed the Taliban and al-Qaida to regroup into somewhat effective guerrilla organizations. If we had kept up the pressure that would have been a different story, they would have been completely neutralized being trapped in the mountains under constant attack and unable to respond in any real significant manner and eventually starved out.
Al-Qaida and Bin-Laden wanted the US (and our western allies) to invade somewhere in the ME, Iran or Iraq because they believed the whole of the Muslim ME would rise up against us with all the holy places in those two countries. What they didn't want or expect was our going after them in Afghanistan, a relatively insignificant country as far as even Muslims are concerned, that took them by surprise.

Nobody wins in the Stan.

No, the coalition simply replaced the repressive Taliban with a tribal leader which should eventually fall apart but so far hasn't. With the election in 2014 and Ahmadzai swearing in his rival as Vice President averting potential conflict between north and south Afghanistan things are looking promising. Of course there is still the Taliban who are only strong enough to apply the occasional terror tactics but that's to be expected. Whether the north-south political coalition survives is yet to be seen, Afghanistan is still heavily tribal.

Fingers crossed. It will take a while to reverse 50 years of savagery.
1960’s Afghanistan Was Very Different Before The Taliban

It goes back centuries, the Taliban is just a fairly recent manifestation.

 

[Wry Catcher]

The Vietnam War was a civil war we had no right to be involved in.
Poor leadership, Poor Decisions and over 50,000 dead Americans.
Waste of Blood and Treasure...... I sure hope the politician that got us involved get what is coming to them

What happened when it finished ?
Was there an enquiry ? Were people held to account ?

No need for an inquiry. The guilty culprits, Kennedy and Johnson were worm food by 1973.

Nixon ran on "I have a plan", that being to end the war in Vietnam; this promise was the theme of his campaign during the summer of 1969. His plan, seems to have been, to expand the war into Cambodian and Laos and spend months arguing about the shape of the table at the Paris Peace Talks.

Four years later he was reelected notwithstanding the continuous body count of our troops. It was IKE who sent the first advisors into Vietnam, too bad Hossfly needs to lie, but that's what right wingers always seem to do.

 

[Camp]

You dont see the protests these days. Is it because it is on a smaller scale or perhaps there is support for the current intiiatives ?

`
I'm not referring to the protests per se. Americans have become so ignorant, deluded and self-centered, the idea of war and the horrors of war, mean nothing to them. But perhaps that is a good point, the 60s/70s appears to be the last gasp of the American conscience. So long as or troops death count is so low, no one cares, left or right.

American boys were drafted to serve and die in Vietnam. Everyone had a neighbor, classmate, friend, or local who came home in a box. Not knowing for sure what the war was accomplishing led even hardcore patriotic Americans to question the war. It also meant many of the protesters had personal connections to the soldiers being sent to Vietnam. Not lost on the public was the fact that kids from families with the ability to pay for college were finding ways to avoid service and going to war.

 

[Sunni Man]

You dont see the protests these days. Is it because it is on a smaller scale or perhaps there is support for the current intiiatives ?

The main reason for the lack of protests is that we currently have an all volunteer army.

During the Vietnam War the ranks of the military was mainly filled with conscripts, known as the "draft". The war never was popular with the majority of the young people, who were the one's expected to go, fight, and possibly die. Eventually, even the average citizen started turning against the war, when kids in their neighborhood started coming home in body bags from a far off war being fought over ideology. ....

 

[Windparadox]

Its strange that the Iraq war is seen as toxic over here but not so much in the US.

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The US obviously doesn't learn from it's mistakes. Like in Vietnam, no one except for the criminal governments in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria, want the US there.

 

[Sunni Man]

Fingers crossed. It will take a while to reverse 50 years of savagery.
1960’s Afghanistan Was Very Different Before The Taliban

War is the national sport of Afghanistan.

They are a proud people who refuse to be conquered. .....

 

[Mindful]

Just watching Ken Burns doc on the bbc.

I will have to watch it again when the house is quieter.

But at first glance it does seem that a lot of brave young men were let down badly by the politicians and the Generals.

I dont know if the doc is accurate but the impression given is that they just didnt have a clue.

My knowledge of the conflict is poor and mainly taken from the movies.

How did it go so badly ?

It is very accurate.

At one point the Vietcong had superior Russian made weapons. Did you see the part where the US soldiers' guns jammed during heavy artillery fire?

Resulting in much loss of life.

 

[Sunni Man]

At one point the Vietcong had superior Russian made weapons. Did you see the part where the US soldiers' guns jammed during heavy artillery fire?

Incorrect.....the Soviet weapons were never superior to American weapons.

The jamming incident happened when the new M-16 rifle was first introduced to into the conflict. A change of gunpowder formula, hard chroming various metal parts, and the introduction of cleaning kits, resolved the jamming issues. Resulting in a world class weapon, who's basic design is still used today. ...

 

[Mindful]

At one point the Vietcong had superior Russian made weapons. Did you see the part where the US soldiers' guns jammed during heavy artillery fire?

Incorrect.....the Soviet weapons were never superior to American weapons.

The jamming incident happened when the new M-16 rifle was first introduced to into the conflict. A change of gunpowder formula, hard chroming various metal parts, and the introduction of cleaning kits, resolved the jamming issues. Resulting in a world class weapon, who's basic design is still used today. ...

They must have been, if they didn't jam.

 

[Mindful]

You dont see the protests these days. Is it because it is on a smaller scale or perhaps there is support for the current intiiatives ?

`
I'm not referring to the protests per se. Americans have become so ignorant, deluded and self-centered, the idea of war and the horrors of war, mean nothing to them. But perhaps that is a good point, the 60s/70s appears to be the last gasp of the American conscience. So long as or troops death count is so low, no one cares, left or right.

American boys were drafted to serve and die in Vietnam. Everyone had a neighbor, classmate, friend, or local who came home in a box. Not knowing for sure what the war was accomplishing led even hardcore patriotic Americans to question the war. It also meant many of the protesters had personal connections to the soldiers being sent to Vietnam. Not lost on the public was the fact that kids from families with the ability to pay for college were finding ways to avoid service and going to war.

According to the documentary, many of those young men wanted to go and fight in Vietnam. One family they focused on, he gave up academia to join up.

 

[Mindful]

Why keep raking over hot coals? It happened.

You may as well analyse to death the War of the Roses, or the gunpowder plot.

Skye would be proud of that posting.

What's that got to do with anything?

Why keep raking over hot coals? It happened.

You may as well analyse to death the War of the Roses, or the gunpowder plot.

Skye would be proud of that posting.

What's that got to do with anything?

We are discussing a fairly recent war on the HISTORY forum. And you want to shut down debate. Thats just dumb.

Misquoting, and altering the narrative? That's what your type does.

You're not merely "discussing a fairly recent war". Not in an objective way at least. You always have some sort of angle. On anything you discuss.

Stop trolling the thread.

Another diversionary tactic for your dishonesty.

 

[Mindful]

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I recently just watched all ten, 1 hr 20 min, installments of the PBS documentary; The Vietnam War. Very sobering. It's funny how the US is now making those same damn mistakes in the ME right now.

It's a different scenario, context. Vietnam was an ideological war. And the Vietnamese were used to handling the forests, jungles etc.

Though Americans fighting the Arabs in their own arid desert terrain is difficult, as even The Crusaders realised, so far back in history.