Vietnam War was unwinnable

Dayton3

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The idiots in this thread that insist we lost can not face the FACTS or REALITY. By 72 we had stabilized South Vietnam. No Insurgency was left. In 72 the South with our air support stopped a major North Vietnamese invasion with NO US Troops involved in combat. In 74 the Democrats cut off South Vietnam from supplies and our Treaty agreement. In 75 the North Invaded again with a small incursion we they saw the US would not honor the committment of a VALID SIGNED TREATY they switched to an all out INVASION. 25 North Vietnamese Divisions, NO internal insurgency at ALL. With out our supplies and fuel the South still fought. With out our air support they fought for a month out numbered over 2 to one. The dems sold out an ally with a VALID Treaty.
Damnit

If we only had a little more time and just a few more casualties, we would have WON
We did NOT have troops in Vietnam after 72 you fucking MORON. The South just needed air support and to be supplied with ammo parts and fuel. they proved that in 72.
..that's all they needed--air support and supplies!! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
the US had air support and it didn't win the war--the North kept fighting
--you want to keep the war going for decades!!!!
--like i said--doing the same thing over and over--expecting different results = insanity
Lots of wars last for decades. Why the American obsession with extremely short conflicts?
lots of wars what??
....also, if you mean why the Americans don't want long wars?? if the war is worth fighting for --like WW2, no problem...if it is something like Vietnam--no shit it should be short!!!!!!!!--should not have been there in the first place
..we had more reason to be at war with Iran than NVietnam
You support the U.S. going to war with Iran? Great! Something we can agree on. We're probably more alike than you think.
..... I meant the Hostage Crisis --we had every right to go to war and/or blast some shit.....I was just thinking the other day about a thread on what options we had during the Hostage Crisis ...I'll have to post that sometime
The rescue mission was a disaster. But it could've been an even bigger disaster. The U.S. military had privately estimated that the BEST case scenario for the hostage rescue mission was for HALF the hostages to be killed and from 300-500 Iranians to be killed. They did not come clean with President Carter about these estimates because they knew he would chicken out. And coming barely half a decade after the Vietnam War, the U.S. military wanted to put a "win" in the column.

A big part of the problem was Carter wanted the rescue force to minimize Iranian casualties at all costs. Including using nonlethal weapons whenever possible. One of the top officers who ended up carrying smoke grenades later said "He expected us to fight our way out of a hostile capital city of 5 million people with smoke grenades!!".

If things went to hell, the officer planned to fire one and only one smoke grenade...and that would be the signal for AC-130 gunships to start making attacks into the heart of Tehran.
 
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harmonica

harmonica

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The idiots in this thread that insist we lost can not face the FACTS or REALITY. By 72 we had stabilized South Vietnam. No Insurgency was left. In 72 the South with our air support stopped a major North Vietnamese invasion with NO US Troops involved in combat. In 74 the Democrats cut off South Vietnam from supplies and our Treaty agreement. In 75 the North Invaded again with a small incursion we they saw the US would not honor the committment of a VALID SIGNED TREATY they switched to an all out INVASION. 25 North Vietnamese Divisions, NO internal insurgency at ALL. With out our supplies and fuel the South still fought. With out our air support they fought for a month out numbered over 2 to one. The dems sold out an ally with a VALID Treaty.
Damnit

If we only had a little more time and just a few more casualties, we would have WON
We did NOT have troops in Vietnam after 72 you fucking MORON. The South just needed air support and to be supplied with ammo parts and fuel. they proved that in 72.
..that's all they needed--air support and supplies!! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
the US had air support and it didn't win the war--the North kept fighting
--you want to keep the war going for decades!!!!
--like i said--doing the same thing over and over--expecting different results = insanity
Lots of wars last for decades. Why the American obsession with extremely short conflicts?
lots of wars what??
....also, if you mean why the Americans don't want long wars?? if the war is worth fighting for --like WW2, no problem...if it is something like Vietnam--no shit it should be short!!!!!!!!--should not have been there in the first place
..we had more reason to be at war with Iran than NVietnam
You support the U.S. going to war with Iran? Great! Something we can agree on. We're probably more alike than you think.
..... I meant the Hostage Crisis --we had every right to go to war and/or blast some shit.....I was just thinking the other day about a thread on what options we had during the Hostage Crisis ...I'll have to post that sometime
The rescue mission was a disaster. But it could've been an even bigger disaster. The U.S. military had privately estimated that the BEST case scenario for the hostage rescue mission was for HALF the hostages to be killed and from 300-500 Iranians to be killed. They did not come clean with President Carter about these estimates because they knew he would chicken out. And coming barely half a decade after the Vietnam War, the U.S. military wanted to put a "win" in the column.

A big part of the problem was Carter wanted the rescue force to minimize Iranian casualties at all costs. Including using nonlethal weapons whenever possible. One of the top officers who ended up carrying smoke grenades later said "He expected us to fight our way out of a hostile capital city of 5 million people with smoke grenades!!".

If things went to hell, the officer planned to fire one and only one smoke grenade...and that would be the signal for AC-130 gunships to start making attacks into the heart of Tehran.
o, I guess I did make one--but I did not go into the many other options/etc
 
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harmonica

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..we are talking REALITY--not nuking anyone....not invading the north like the Russians and US did to Germany --that wasn't going to happen--even if they did invade the North, they couldn't stay there forever.....
..first--the French lost--and after we gave them MILLIONS$ and with all their '''advantages'' ....this should've been a lesson
......a big problem was the Vietnamese government [ and military ] = for a long time it was corrupt/unstable/etc = they had 3 heads of state changes in less than 2 years--one with a MURDER..with many attempted coups before and after......that mess was still there after Thieu took over
...N Vietnam did not have to even beat the US ......
.......the US could cut off Korea because it was peninsula--where as NV could bring troops/etc to the South over land
.

We could have won the Vietnam war in a matter of months. But it would have to have been a war, not a "police action." Had we fought it the way we fought in Europe we would have quickly crushed the Communists. But we didn't, we stayed behind imaginary lines and played games.
I've asked for scenarios before
please give me a '''few months'' win scenario
 

elektra

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hahahahhahahahahha
it has no relevance at all to the subject
Of course that is what the ignorant says.
......if you could've proved it, you would have--but you didn't..you just make insults = you are babbling crap--as usual
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH
you are a liar, I did not post insults, unless calling you ignorant after you proved it is an insult....

oh, and stating using google as your brain must of insulted you but in my defense I thought that would go over your head.
 
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harmonica

harmonica

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hahahahhahahahahha
it has no relevance at all to the subject
Of course that is what the ignorant says.
......if you could've proved it, you would have--but you didn't..you just make insults = you are babbling crap--as usual
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH
you are a liar, I did not post insults, unless calling you ignorant after you proved it is an insult....

oh, and stating using google as your brain must of insulted you but in my defense I thought that would go over your head.
......ANOTHER post by you that just babbles with no relevance to the subject!!!!
 

rightwinger

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The one and only time when NV made the mistake of engaging us in a large-scale, set-piece battle, i.e., the Tet Offensive, we slaughtered them on an enormous scale. The Tet Offensive was a *military* disaster for NV. Ho Chi Minh was so upset with the gigantic losses and the failure to hold a single city that he fired General Giap, the planner and leader of the offensive. It took NV at least 2 years to recover from the devastation that we imposed on them.

But, our news media and anti-war Democrats (I know: that's redundant) gave NV a great PR victory, and damaged public support for the war, by painting the Tet Offensive as a communist victory and as an indication that we had no hope of victory.
The NV did not care.....It was their country
They were in for the long haul, we were in it for a quick victory and go home.

After Tet, the people at home began to ask
Why are we in Vietnam?

Nobody could give an acceptable answer
 

elektra

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......ANOTHER post by you that just babbles with no relevance to the subject!!!!
Of course, your comments are what you describe mine to be so of course, as you have set the tone, comments no longer reflect tbe topic. You must be a special kind of stupid to miss that.
 

mikegriffith1

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The one and only time when NV made the mistake of engaging us in a large-scale, set-piece battle, i.e., the Tet Offensive, we slaughtered them on an enormous scale. The Tet Offensive was a *military* disaster for NV. Ho Chi Minh was so upset with the gigantic losses and the failure to hold a single city that he fired General Giap, the planner and leader of the offensive. It took NV at least 2 years to recover from the devastation that we imposed on them.

But, our news media and anti-war Democrats (I know: that's redundant) gave NV a great PR victory, and damaged public support for the war, by painting the Tet Offensive as a communist victory and as an indication that we had no hope of victory.
The NV did not care.....It was their country
They were in for the long haul, we were in it for a quick victory and go home.

After Tet, the people at home began to ask
Why are we in Vietnam?

Nobody could give an acceptable answer
First of all, Vietnam was not NV's country--it was not "their country." The North and the South had been separated for centuries, a fact that liberals always ignore.

Yes, Americans began to ask "why are we in Vietnam" after Tet because our liberal news media gave a very warped, dishonest portrayal of it. Instead of reporting the fact that Tet was a crushing military defeat for the North, our media painted Tet as being a NV victory and as proving that the war effort was misguided and ineffective.

Again, we won the war and forced NV to sign the 1973 peace treaty. But, when the North violated the treaty and invaded the South in 1974, the Democrats refused to allow President Ford to provide the air support that we had promised SV.

One of these days you really should figure out that the hokey syrup you were fed in school textbooks is usually not very reliable and is often brazenly wrong.
 

mikegriffith1

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The one and only time when NV made the mistake of engaging us in a large-scale, set-piece battle, i.e., the Tet Offensive, we slaughtered them on an enormous scale. The Tet Offensive was a *military* disaster for NV. Ho Chi Minh was so upset with the gigantic losses and the failure to hold a single city that he fired General Giap, the planner and leader of the offensive. It took NV at least 2 years to recover from the devastation that we imposed on them.

But, our news media and anti-war Democrats (I know: that's redundant) gave NV a great PR victory, and damaged public support for the war, by painting the Tet Offensive as a communist victory and as an indication that we had no hope of victory.
Correction: Ho Chi Minh fired General Giap after his disastrous 1972 Easter Offensive, which resulted in even bigger losses than the Tet Offensive.

Also, NV launched two more attacks in 1968 after the Tet Offensive, but they were on a smaller scale and were brutally repulsed.
 

Mac-7

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Even though the cost was high, we did win in a way. Vietnam seems to have become more capitalist over the years. They manufacture alot of the stuff sold in Walmart, and they've become a tourist attraction.

I mean, compared to North Korea.
The expansion of marxism ended with the end of the Vietnam War

we lost S Vietnam but saved Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines
 

rightwinger

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The expansion of marxism ended with the end of the Vietnam War

we lost S Vietnam but saved Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines
What you are admitting is that the threatened Domino Theory never happened once Vietnam went communist
 

Dayton3

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The expansion of marxism ended with the end of the Vietnam War

we lost S Vietnam but saved Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines
What you are admitting is that the threatened Domino Theory never happened once Vietnam went communist
Well of course. The communists in Vietnam were utterly exhausted at the end of U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War. To the point that the Chinese actually doubted that they had the wherewithal to conquer South Vietnam which was why the Chinese suggested to North Vietnam that they wait a few more years before moving against South Vietnam in force.

By the way, IIRC it was an Indonesian official who said in the 1980s that Southeast Asia would've been in far worse shape if the U.S. had pulled out in 1965 as opposed to 1973.

And the Domino Theory did apply in a limited fashion because after the communists took over North Vietnam they eventually took over South Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia.
 

Mac-7

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What you are admitting is that the threatened Domino Theory never happened once Vietnam went communist
Because of the Vietnam War

the communist sponsors of military aggression in Moscow and Beijing were exhausted and bankrupt by the war
 

Mac-7

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The expansion of marxism ended with the end of the Vietnam War

we lost S Vietnam but saved Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines
What you are admitting is that the threatened Domino Theory never happened once Vietnam went communist
Well of course. The communists in Vietnam were utterly exhausted at the end of U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War. To the point that the Chinese actually doubted that they had the wherewithal to conquer South Vietnam which was why the Chinese suggested to North Vietnam that they wait a few more years before moving against South Vietnam in force.

By the way, IIRC it was an Indonesian official who said in the 1980s that Southeast Asia would've been in far worse shape if the U.S. had pulled out in 1965 as opposed to 1973.

And the Domino Theory did apply in a limited fashion because after the communists took over North Vietnam they eventually took over South Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia.
To the point that the Chinese actually doubted that they had the wherewithal to conquer South Vietnam which was why the Chinese suggested to North Vietnam that they wait a few more years before moving against South Vietnam in force.

The chicoms underestimated the backstabbing and double-dealing democrats in congress who were determined to lose the war

May they rot in hell
 

rightwinger

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What you are admitting is that the threatened Domino Theory never happened once Vietnam went communist
Because of the Vietnam War

the communist sponsors of military aggression in Moscow and Beijing were exhausted and bankrupt by the war
Didn’t stop them in Vietnam. They were willing to fight to the last man

There was no insurgency in other countries fighting for Communism.

The Domino Theory was an empty threat. Along with the threatened perils of a Communist Vietnam.

45 years of history has shown those threats were not a justification for killing millions
 

mikegriffith1

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For those who might be interested, I have created a website on the Vietnam War:

The Truth About the Vietnam War: The Democrats Betrayed South Vietnam

The site includes links to numerous long and short documentaries on the war, links to articles on the war, and links to recommended books on the war.
 

Tom Paine 1949

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I love the way Republicans (not all of them, only the retards) argue that it was evil Demonrats who started the Vietnam War and evil Demonrats who ... “Betrayed Vietnam.”

Makes one wonder what those godly Republicans were doing all those years?
 

Tom Paine 1949

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“Ho Chi Minh fired General Giap after his disastrous 1972 Easter Offensive ...”
That would have been hard for even Ho Chi Minh to manage considering that ... HE DIED ON SEPT. 2, 1969!

This is what happens when hysterical Republican hacks try to rewrite history. They not only weave an ideologically biased view that will only result in future “unwinnable” and UNJUST wars ... they don’t even get their FACTS straight!
 

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