Vietnam War was unwinnable

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harmonica

harmonica

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GOOD thing the politicians LIMITED the military:
1. we didn't need to be there
2.just like Korea, we did not want:
another world war
MORE deaths and casualties--on both sides--including civilians
 

RetiredGySgt

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The reality is that we won in Vietnam, Our STATED goal was to prevent an insurgency from taking the South. We prevented that, The South fell to an invasion of 25 North Vietnamese Divisions. And the only reason THAT happened was because as usual the democrats prevented the US from honoring her treaties.
 
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harmonica

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Vietnam was just as winnable as Korea but both missions were thoroughly botched by incompetent administrations.
.....so why did France loose? and Britain loose in Afghanistan? AND Russia? -etc?
...it was not winnable
..you people are looking at it one dimensionally/etc
 

rightwinger

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Vietnam was just as winnable as Korea but both missions were thoroughly botched by incompetent administrations.
What is a “win”???

Total devastation of the other side and then a lasting peace?

I don’t think either war was “winnable”
 

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I do NOT know whether this info is accurate, but since everyone else is blowing off steam, I shall, too.

I heard a speaker (on C-SPAN?) explain that the Americans "lost" South Vietnam because they did not understand a vital point about the people in South Vietnam.

This speaker claimed that the people in South Vietnam did not necessarily dislike the North Vietnamese, but they did dislike the Chinese people in their society who supposedly controlled the economy.

*****

And don't forget: A few years after the Vietnam War ended, China sent some troops into Vietnam, and the Vietnamese kicked their blanks back to China.
 
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harmonica

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I do NOT know whether this info is accurate, but since everyone else is blowing off steam, I shall, too.

I heard a speaker (on C-SPAN?) explain that the Americans "lost" South Vietnam because they did not understand a vital point about the people in South Vietnam.

This speaker claimed that the people in South Vietnam did not necessarily dislike the North Vietnamese, but they did dislike the Chinese people in their society who supposedly controlled the economy.

*****

And don't forget: A few years after the Vietnam War ended, China sent some troops into Vietnam, and the Vietnamese kicked their blanks back to China.
..we lost because it was unwinnable
..if you have followed the thread, you would know the SVietnamese government and military [ hahahah ] was corrupt/unstable/etc
...you can't '''save'' a ''country''/stabilize/help/etc if it's leaders/government/etc is fked up...
etc etc ..all proof and more in the thread
....it is much more complicated than a lot of people make it out to be
'''''we could've invaded the North''''.....they didn't let us win'''' =etc etc bullshit
 

RetiredGySgt

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I do NOT know whether this info is accurate, but since everyone else is blowing off steam, I shall, too.

I heard a speaker (on C-SPAN?) explain that the Americans "lost" South Vietnam because they did not understand a vital point about the people in South Vietnam.

This speaker claimed that the people in South Vietnam did not necessarily dislike the North Vietnamese, but they did dislike the Chinese people in their society who supposedly controlled the economy.

*****

And don't forget: A few years after the Vietnam War ended, China sent some troops into Vietnam, and the Vietnamese kicked their blanks back to China.
..we lost because it was unwinnable
..if you have followed the thread, you would know the SVietnamese government and military [ hahahah ] was corrupt/unstable/etc
...you can't '''save'' a ''country''/stabilize/help/etc if it's leaders/government/etc is fked up...
etc etc ..all proof and more in the thread
....it is much more complicated than a lot of people make it out to be
'''''we could've invaded the North''''.....they didn't let us win'''' =etc etc bullshit
Read some legitimate history not the version put out by the left by 1971 the South Vietnamese were stable NO insurgency as every supposed VC was actually a NV soldier smuggled into the Country. When Nixon pulled all the troops out he made a deal that if North Vietnam attacked the South we would respond usually with artillery air and naval forces. And we did so in 73 and 74. The weak kneed Ford would not buck the democrats in Congress that cut all funding to the South in 74. And in 75 when the North again made a probe into South Vietnam the democrats REFUSED to honor the treaty. And Ford did nothing. The North seeing no response from the US went to a full Offensive with 25 divisions to South Vietnam's 12. Short on parts for their tanks short on ammo short on fuel the South still fought for 1 month while the democrats stood by and laughed.
 

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More often than not the isolationist position is the better alternative to being the global police. Granted, at times it cannot be helped, but the war profiteers are too quick to beat their drums.
We turned what should have been considered a Civil War into a Cold War
..they were supposed to have elections and the US did not agree to that
Neither di
..we are talking REALITY--not nuking anyone....not invading the north like the Russians and US did to Germany --that wasn't going to happen--even if they did invade the North, they couldn't stay there forever.....
..first--the French lost--and after we gave them MILLIONS$ and with all their '''advantages'' ....this should've been a lesson
......a big problem was the Vietnamese government [ and military ] = for a long time it was corrupt/unstable/etc = they had 3 heads of state changes in less than 2 years--one with a MURDER..with many attempted coups before and after......that mess was still there after Thieu took over
...N Vietnam did not have to even beat the US ......
.......the US could cut off Korea because it was peninsula--where as NV could bring troops/etc to the South over land
.
Untrue. If we were going to fight there we could and should have invaded the North or leveled it. That is how you finish a war. Win. But the politicians were terrified we might win and made rules that denied us any chance of winning. We might have won at almost any time if it had been allowed right up until those politicians had the ground combat units withdraw in '73.
1. we were not going to level or TOTALLY invade the North
a. the North did not bomb Pearl Harbor--the US had no reason and no reason to have the willpower to level/invade/MASSIVE draft/$$$$/etc for a TOTAL war like WW2 against Japan
--what reason is there to level the North?
2. so even if we invaded the North, we couldn't occupy it forever = we lose
3. give more specifics on scenarios how how we would ''level'' the North
4. you don't give much [ none ] proof to back your claims
. we were not going to level or TOTALLY invade the North
a. the North did not bomb Pearl Harbor--the US had no reason and no reason to have the willpower to

The reason is to win a war instead of wasting lives time and money playing around and then wimping out on orders from the politicians. If we must fight we should always fight to win.
2. so even if we invaded the North, we couldn't occupy it forever = we lose
The mission was to protect South Vietnam from North Vietnamese Communist imperialism. So we defeat North Vietnam and make it part of South Vietnam and go home. Mission accomplished and happy ending
3. give more specifics on scenarios how how we would ''level'' the North
You never heard of tactical nuclear weapons, daisy cutters, etc?
Maybe not the best option; but better than the one the politicians chose for us.

4. you don't give much [ none ] proof to back your claims
Neither did you. No, I offered opinion just as you did except that mine is much better informed
 

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Meanwhile, Ho Chi Mihn had spent his whole life fighting foreign invaders... which made him a hero.
Right. Here is some little known history (in the U.S.) of HoChiMinh, how he was radicalized, and how he sought U.S. support after WWI and WWII: The Radicalization of Ho Chi Minh
When given a choice, the US chose to support the Colonial Powers over the right of people to choose their government
You would prefer we supported and allowed Communist imperialism? We supported the right of the South Vietnamese people to choose their own government instead of being enslaved by the Communists.
 

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What a trashy, lame excuse for dodging his duty. Ali didn't mind reaping all the benefits of America's free-enterprise system, but when it came his time to serve his country, he played the race card. Ali knew full well that the Army was not going to send him anywhere near Vietnam. We should have deported him to North Vietnam.

When Elvis Presley got his draft call, he chose to serve. When Ali got his draft call, he chose to dodge the draft, to play the race card, and also to hide behind his supposed conversion to Islam. Humm, yet he was living in sin with a woman after his supposed conversion, in violation of the most basic moral teachings of Islam. When asked about this, he claimed he was "spiritually married" to his shack-up girlfriend. Yeah, uh-huh. It would have taken him about 30 minutes to get married by a justice of the peace.
You are correct, Ali could have gotten light duty like Elvis. Easy enough to just take the oath and cross the line.

Instead, he chose his religious beliefs over an unjust war. Cost him three years, his title and millions of dollars.

The Supreme Court unanimously agreed with Ali.
Ali was an unAmerican chickenshit. If it was about his religious beliefs (if any) he could easily have gone into the Army and if sent to Vietnam served as a CO medic some of whom received awards (including the highest) for valor. Instead he chose to go to a nice cushy jail cell with a roof, three-hots-and-cot, electricity and running water in an admission of cowardness . I sometimes wonder whatever happened to the man who was sent in his place.
 

rightwinger

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Meanwhile, Ho Chi Mihn had spent his whole life fighting foreign invaders... which made him a hero.
Right. Here is some little known history (in the U.S.) of HoChiMinh, how he was radicalized, and how he sought U.S. support after WWI and WWII: The Radicalization of Ho Chi Minh
When given a choice, the US chose to support the Colonial Powers over the right of people to choose their government
You would prefer we supported and allowed Communist imperialism? We supported the right of the South Vietnamese people to choose their own government instead of being enslaved by the Communists.
Yes

We promised Vietnam they could hold elections in five years. After five years it was obvious Ho Chi Minh would win and we reneged on our promise. Instead, we backed the corrupt and inept regime of Diem.

Commie, Commie, Commie. We killed a million Vietnamese and 60,000 Americans because communism would be so horrible.

Now, after 45 years of communist rule, the world did not come to an end. Vietnam is a big trading partner
 
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rightwinger

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What a trashy, lame excuse for dodging his duty. Ali didn't mind reaping all the benefits of America's free-enterprise system, but when it came his time to serve his country, he played the race card. Ali knew full well that the Army was not going to send him anywhere near Vietnam. We should have deported him to North Vietnam.

When Elvis Presley got his draft call, he chose to serve. When Ali got his draft call, he chose to dodge the draft, to play the race card, and also to hide behind his supposed conversion to Islam. Humm, yet he was living in sin with a woman after his supposed conversion, in violation of the most basic moral teachings of Islam. When asked about this, he claimed he was "spiritually married" to his shack-up girlfriend. Yeah, uh-huh. It would have taken him about 30 minutes to get married by a justice of the peace.
You are correct, Ali could have gotten light duty like Elvis. Easy enough to just take the oath and cross the line.

Instead, he chose his religious beliefs over an unjust war. Cost him three years, his title and millions of dollars.

The Supreme Court unanimously agreed with Ali.
Ali was an unAmerican chickenshit. If it was about his religious beliefs (if any) he could easily have gone into the Army and if sent to Vietnam served as a CO medic some of whom received awards (including the highest) for valor. Instead he chose to go to a nice cushy jail cell with a roof, three-hots-and-cot, electricity and running water in an admission of cowardness . I sometimes wonder whatever happened to the man who was sent in his place.
SCOTUS said he had a right to be exempted from service because of his religious beliefs. Just like thousands were exempted for religious beliefs, college deferments and fake bone spurs.
 
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9thIDdoc

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What a trashy, lame excuse for dodging his duty. Ali didn't mind reaping all the benefits of America's free-enterprise system, but when it came his time to serve his country, he played the race card. Ali knew full well that the Army was not going to send him anywhere near Vietnam. We should have deported him to North Vietnam.

When Elvis Presley got his draft call, he chose to serve. When Ali got his draft call, he chose to dodge the draft, to play the race card, and also to hide behind his supposed conversion to Islam. Humm, yet he was living in sin with a woman after his supposed conversion, in violation of the most basic moral teachings of Islam. When asked about this, he claimed he was "spiritually married" to his shack-up girlfriend. Yeah, uh-huh. It would have taken him about 30 minutes to get married by a justice of the peace.
You are correct, Ali could have gotten light duty like Elvis. Easy enough to just take the oath and cross the line.

Instead, he chose his religious beliefs over an unjust war. Cost him three years, his title and millions of dollars.

The Supreme Court unanimously agreed with Ali.
Ali was an unAmerican chickenshit. If it was about his religious beliefs (if any) he could easily have gone into the Army and if sent to Vietnam served as a CO medic some of whom received awards (including the highest) for valor. Instead he chose to go to a nice cushy jail cell with a roof, three-hots-and-cot, electricity and running water in an admission of cowardness . I sometimes wonder whatever happened to the man who was sent in his place.
SCOTUS said he had a right to be exempted from service because of his religious beliefs. Just like thousands were exempted for religious beliefs, college deferments and fake bone spurs.
In served in Vietnam alongside drafted Conscientious Objectors in combat zones including air assault missions. They honored their faith and still served their Country as he could have. Just another coward who thought he was special. SCOTUS is welcome to it's opinions I'll keep mine. And he was sent to jail. He was just released about 50 years early.
 

rightwinger

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What a trashy, lame excuse for dodging his duty. Ali didn't mind reaping all the benefits of America's free-enterprise system, but when it came his time to serve his country, he played the race card. Ali knew full well that the Army was not going to send him anywhere near Vietnam. We should have deported him to North Vietnam.

When Elvis Presley got his draft call, he chose to serve. When Ali got his draft call, he chose to dodge the draft, to play the race card, and also to hide behind his supposed conversion to Islam. Humm, yet he was living in sin with a woman after his supposed conversion, in violation of the most basic moral teachings of Islam. When asked about this, he claimed he was "spiritually married" to his shack-up girlfriend. Yeah, uh-huh. It would have taken him about 30 minutes to get married by a justice of the peace.
You are correct, Ali could have gotten light duty like Elvis. Easy enough to just take the oath and cross the line.

Instead, he chose his religious beliefs over an unjust war. Cost him three years, his title and millions of dollars.

The Supreme Court unanimously agreed with Ali.
Ali was an unAmerican chickenshit. If it was about his religious beliefs (if any) he could easily have gone into the Army and if sent to Vietnam served as a CO medic some of whom received awards (including the highest) for valor. Instead he chose to go to a nice cushy jail cell with a roof, three-hots-and-cot, electricity and running water in an admission of cowardness . I sometimes wonder whatever happened to the man who was sent in his place.
SCOTUS said he had a right to be exempted from service because of his religious beliefs. Just like thousands were exempted for religious beliefs, college deferments and fake bone spurs.
In served in Vietnam alongside drafted Conscientious Objectors in combat zones including air assault missions. They honored their faith and still served their Country as he could have. Just another coward who thought he was special. SCOTUS is welcome to it's opinions I'll keep mine. And he was sent to jail. He was just released about 50 years early.
Don’t think Ali ever went to jail.
He had legitimate objections to the war.

As it turned out, his objections were correct and those who prosecuted him were wrong about Vietnam
 
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harmonica

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More often than not the isolationist position is the better alternative to being the global police. Granted, at times it cannot be helped, but the war profiteers are too quick to beat their drums.
We turned what should have been considered a Civil War into a Cold War
..they were supposed to have elections and the US did not agree to that
Neither di
..we are talking REALITY--not nuking anyone....not invading the north like the Russians and US did to Germany --that wasn't going to happen--even if they did invade the North, they couldn't stay there forever.....
..first--the French lost--and after we gave them MILLIONS$ and with all their '''advantages'' ....this should've been a lesson
......a big problem was the Vietnamese government [ and military ] = for a long time it was corrupt/unstable/etc = they had 3 heads of state changes in less than 2 years--one with a MURDER..with many attempted coups before and after......that mess was still there after Thieu took over
...N Vietnam did not have to even beat the US ......
.......the US could cut off Korea because it was peninsula--where as NV could bring troops/etc to the South over land
.
Untrue. If we were going to fight there we could and should have invaded the North or leveled it. That is how you finish a war. Win. But the politicians were terrified we might win and made rules that denied us any chance of winning. We might have won at almost any time if it had been allowed right up until those politicians had the ground combat units withdraw in '73.
1. we were not going to level or TOTALLY invade the North
a. the North did not bomb Pearl Harbor--the US had no reason and no reason to have the willpower to level/invade/MASSIVE draft/$$$$/etc for a TOTAL war like WW2 against Japan
--what reason is there to level the North?
2. so even if we invaded the North, we couldn't occupy it forever = we lose
3. give more specifics on scenarios how how we would ''level'' the North
4. you don't give much [ none ] proof to back your claims
. we were not going to level or TOTALLY invade the North
a. the North did not bomb Pearl Harbor--the US had no reason and no reason to have the willpower to

The reason is to win a war instead of wasting lives time and money playing around and then wimping out on orders from the politicians. If we must fight we should always fight to win.
2. so even if we invaded the North, we couldn't occupy it forever = we lose
The mission was to protect South Vietnam from North Vietnamese Communist imperialism. So we defeat North Vietnam and make it part of South Vietnam and go home. Mission accomplished and happy ending
3. give more specifics on scenarios how how we would ''level'' the North
You never heard of tactical nuclear weapons, daisy cutters, etc?
Maybe not the best option; but better than the one the politicians chose for us.

4. you don't give much [ none ] proof to back your claims
Neither did you. No, I offered opinion just as you did except that mine is much better informed
..you just fked up...you think in 1 dimensional terms...
1. once we go home--the shit starts again------!!!!!!
2. no--all my links/QUOTES/etc are in my thread ''Vietnam unwinnable'' which I posted--ahahahahhaha
3.nukes----idiocy--pure idiocy...how old are you? 15?
 
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harmonica

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Meanwhile, Ho Chi Mihn had spent his whole life fighting foreign invaders... which made him a hero.
Right. Here is some little known history (in the U.S.) of HoChiMinh, how he was radicalized, and how he sought U.S. support after WWI and WWII: The Radicalization of Ho Chi Minh
When given a choice, the US chose to support the Colonial Powers over the right of people to choose their government
You would prefer we supported and allowed Communist imperialism? We supported the right of the South Vietnamese people to choose their own government instead of being enslaved by the Communists.
Yes

We promised Vietnam they could hold elections in five years. After five years it was obvious Ho Chi Minh would win and we reneged on our promise. Instead, we backed the corrupt and inept regime of Diem.

Commie, Commie, Commie. We killed a million Vietnamese and 60,000 Americans because communism would be so horrible.

Now, after 45 years of communist rule, the world did not come to an end. Vietnam is a big trading partner
..he doesn't know shit about their history ---
 
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harmonica

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Meanwhile, Ho Chi Mihn had spent his whole life fighting foreign invaders... which made him a hero.
Right. Here is some little known history (in the U.S.) of HoChiMinh, how he was radicalized, and how he sought U.S. support after WWI and WWII: The Radicalization of Ho Chi Minh
When given a choice, the US chose to support the Colonial Powers over the right of people to choose their government
You would prefer we supported and allowed Communist imperialism? We supported the right of the South Vietnamese people to choose their own government instead of being enslaved by the Communists.
..like I told Rightwinger--you don't even know history
..we lost Vietnam--AND Cambodia, AND Laos AND Cuba/etc etc to '''''communism'''--guess what????? do you know??? the US is OK!!!
..so what if they were communist'''?????

..I've got news for you----so is China and Russia!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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harmonica

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What a trashy, lame excuse for dodging his duty. Ali didn't mind reaping all the benefits of America's free-enterprise system, but when it came his time to serve his country, he played the race card. Ali knew full well that the Army was not going to send him anywhere near Vietnam. We should have deported him to North Vietnam.

When Elvis Presley got his draft call, he chose to serve. When Ali got his draft call, he chose to dodge the draft, to play the race card, and also to hide behind his supposed conversion to Islam. Humm, yet he was living in sin with a woman after his supposed conversion, in violation of the most basic moral teachings of Islam. When asked about this, he claimed he was "spiritually married" to his shack-up girlfriend. Yeah, uh-huh. It would have taken him about 30 minutes to get married by a justice of the peace.
You are correct, Ali could have gotten light duty like Elvis. Easy enough to just take the oath and cross the line.

Instead, he chose his religious beliefs over an unjust war. Cost him three years, his title and millions of dollars.

The Supreme Court unanimously agreed with Ali.
Ali was an unAmerican chickenshit. If it was about his religious beliefs (if any) he could easily have gone into the Army and if sent to Vietnam served as a CO medic some of whom received awards (including the highest) for valor. Instead he chose to go to a nice cushy jail cell with a roof, three-hots-and-cot, electricity and running water in an admission of cowardness . I sometimes wonder whatever happened to the man who was sent in his place.
SCOTUS said he had a right to be exempted from service because of his religious beliefs. Just like thousands were exempted for religious beliefs, college deferments and fake bone spurs.
In served in Vietnam alongside drafted Conscientious Objectors in combat zones including air assault missions. They honored their faith and still served their Country as he could have. Just another coward who thought he was special. SCOTUS is welcome to it's opinions I'll keep mine. And he was sent to jail. He was just released about 50 years early.
..in fact, all that shit we did against communism WASTED tax$ that could have been spent here in the US, helping Americans
....you don't have any idea how much $$$ were spent in Vietnam---just building/transporting/etc--NOT building crap here....
..not to mention 50,000 LIVES --WASTED
---NOT counting the millions$ given and WASTED to France before that !!

..here--NOT counting all the $$$ wasted in Laos and Cambodia
..it fked the US over:
.
 

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