USS Liberty Remembered At Navy Memorial

[Peach]

As far as a 'conspiracy' between Israel and the United States is concerned...

Between which parties?

And why?

That conspiracy theory involves blame being placed on Egypt....by the US & Israel. Another one has LBJ* deciding to arrange the shooting in order to bring the Soviets in, nuke Egypt & ............win the 1968 nomination. Though he did not announce his decision until 1968, IF I remember the text correctly, there are memos showing he knew by 1967 his gig was up.


*LBJ was an SOB in many ways, no question, no dispute; crooked in Texas, decided he'd become a "good guy" in the Presidency, wasn't a good fit.

 

[Peach]

The "Israel did this on purpose" crowed is really big on claims and repetition.

But they're a little weak on facts and evidence and logical explanations about motives and reasons.

In the absence of such, folks are obliged to subscribe to the Accident, Fog of War rationale.

As explained by both family* and Professors in my case.

"You don't care if the guy next to you is white, red, purple, black, or green, you just want him to want to live as much as you do". "You s*it in your pants & don't think about it.........eat a sandwich sitting next to corpses, honey".

 

[Discombobulated]

I have been in war and I have had people shooting at me and I shooting at them. All I remember about it is that I was scared, that I wanted to kill the bastards who were shooting at me, and that I wanted to be HOME.

I do not believe the Israeli's intentionally sought out and attacked a ship of the United States Navy with an intention of sinking it. Let's remember that everyday the Israeli's are fighting for their survival with a bunch of people who use women and children as bomb delivery vehicles. They use schools, mosques and hospitals as launching pads for their 'space program.' Israeli's enemy believes a viable target is a group of school children in a school bus. No, they see something unusual and they shoot first and ask questions later.

A very sad occurrence. Conspiracy or intentional hostile act? No...

None of which addresses any of the facts of this incident.

 

[MaryL]

I remember this incident well, in 1968 the North Koreans commandeered the USS Pueblo, also a surveillance ship gathering intelligence. It hard to say what the reasons were for either incident, but of course people can read into it what they want. By the way, one of the biggest spy scandals in CIA history, involved a mole for Israel. Aldrich Ames. It's almost as if they don't trust us or something. They say, keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer...

 

[Discombobulated]

The USS Liberty was not mistaken for an Egyptian destroyer. This ship would be easily identified from the air and from surface vessels.

Accepting the premise the attack was deliberate: FALSE FLAG gone wrong, or CONSPIRACY, gone wrong?

Yes, I understand that you would rather not address the facts. Speculation is so much more fun.

 

[georgephillip]

I do not read it that way, Israel had warned of danger for 100 miles out, the Liberty was within 15-18 miles. A tragic error, Israel hand -0- to gain, and a lot to lose from this.

What makes you think Jews are special enough to warn a US Naval vessel in international waters to move farther away from shore?...

US Sixth Fleet Headquarters had warned the Liberty to move further away, but the Liberty never got the message, apparently, yes?

...Liberty intercepted an Israeli decision to invade Syria AFTER Syria had withdrawn from the conflict. That is why Israel murdered 34 Americans that day...

So, the US would have known that the Israelis were going to go into the Golan, after the Syrians had withdrawn (by the way, the Syrians did not accept the ceasefire until June 9, the day after the Liberty incident)...so what?

Why would the Israelis risk pissing off the biggest superpower on the face of the planet and one of its few friends and its best chance for replenishing expended munitions in a hurry, simply over knowledge that the Americans knew about one of their upcoming operations.

Was such a signal ever sent over the airwaves?

Did the Liberty intercept such a signal?

Did the Israelis know at the time, that the Liberty had intercepted such a signal?

Why would they commit an act of war against a monster like the US over information that was already leaked - why would they attack The Giant over spilt milk?

It doesn't make any sense.

That doesn't mean that it might not have happened.

It just means that by not making any sense, credulity is an issue.

...Why do you insist on apologizing for them?

Is Peach apologizing for them, or insisting upon proof of allegations and theories, both plausible and wild-and-hairy, before accepting such claims?

Peach has claimed to be a Christian Zionist.
According to Wiki's account, Israel was originally planning on invading the Golan Heights on 8 June '67. They put that off for about 24 hours, and their invasion was launched 4 hours after Syria withdrew from the conflict on 9 June.

Many of your questions are beyond my ability to answer.
Even Liberty survivors say motive could only be understood after a full investigation into the matter.
Such an investigation would obviously benefit from eyewitness testimony from both sides, I would think.

 

[Kondor3]

What makes you think Jews are special enough to warn a US Naval vessel in international waters to move farther away from shore?...

US Sixth Fleet Headquarters had warned the Liberty to move further away, but the Liberty never got the message, apparently, yes?


So, the US would have known that the Israelis were going to go into the Golan, after the Syrians had withdrawn (by the way, the Syrians did not accept the ceasefire until June 9, the day after the Liberty incident)...so what?

Why would the Israelis risk pissing off the biggest superpower on the face of the planet and one of its few friends and its best chance for replenishing expended munitions in a hurry, simply over knowledge that the Americans knew about one of their upcoming operations.

Was such a signal ever sent over the airwaves?

Did the Liberty intercept such a signal?

Did the Israelis know at the time, that the Liberty had intercepted such a signal?

Why would they commit an act of war against a monster like the US over information that was already leaked - why would they attack The Giant over spilt milk?

It doesn't make any sense.

That doesn't mean that it might not have happened.

It just means that by not making any sense, credulity is an issue.

...Why do you insist on apologizing for them?

Is Peach apologizing for them, or insisting upon proof of allegations and theories, both plausible and wild-and-hairy, before accepting such claims?

Peach has claimed to be a Christian Zionist. According to Wiki's account, Israel was originally planning on invading the Golan Heights on 8 June '67. They put that off for about 24 hours, and their invasion was launched 4 hours after Syria withdrew from the conflict on 9 June.

Accepted, as a placeholder.

Still doesn't explain why it would be worth attacking a US Naval vessel for simply having intercepted a signa - if, indeed, this was even a known thing.

...Many of your questions are beyond my ability to answer. Even Liberty survivors say motive could only be understood after a full investigation into the matter. Such an investigation would obviously benefit from eyewitness testimony from both sides, I would think.

Agreed.

 

[Discombobulated]

US Sixth Fleet Headquarters had warned the Liberty to move further away, but the Liberty never got the message, apparently, yes?


So, the US would have known that the Israelis were going to go into the Golan, after the Syrians had withdrawn (by the way, the Syrians did not accept the ceasefire until June 9, the day after the Liberty incident)...so what?

Why would the Israelis risk pissing off the biggest superpower on the face of the planet and one of its few friends and its best chance for replenishing expended munitions in a hurry, simply over knowledge that the Americans knew about one of their upcoming operations.

Was such a signal ever sent over the airwaves?

Did the Liberty intercept such a signal?

Did the Israelis know at the time, that the Liberty had intercepted such a signal?

Why would they commit an act of war against a monster like the US over information that was already leaked - why would they attack The Giant over spilt milk?

It doesn't make any sense.

That doesn't mean that it might not have happened.

It just means that by not making any sense, credulity is an issue.


Is Peach apologizing for them, or insisting upon proof of allegations and theories, both plausible and wild-and-hairy, before accepting such claims?

Peach has claimed to be a Christian Zionist. According to Wiki's account, Israel was originally planning on invading the Golan Heights on 8 June '67. They put that off for about 24 hours, and their invasion was launched 4 hours after Syria withdrew from the conflict on 9 June.

Accepted, as a placeholder.

Still doesn't explain why it would be worth attacking a US Naval vessel for simply having intercepted a signa - if, indeed, this was even a known thing.

...Many of your questions are beyond my ability to answer. Even Liberty survivors say motive could only be understood after a full investigation into the matter. Such an investigation would obviously benefit from eyewitness testimony from both sides, I would think.

Agreed.

An argument which does absolutely nothing to refute the facts.

 

[georgephillip]

I remember this incident well, also that same year the north Koreans commandeered the USS Pueblo, also a surveillance ship gathering intelligence. It hard to say what the reasons were for either incident, but of course people can read into it what they want. By the way, one of the biggest spy scandals in CIA history, involved a mole for Israel. Aldrich Ames. It's almost as if they don't trust us or something. They say, keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer...

It's also useful to contrast the behavior of the US Congress after each of those incidents.
With the Pueblo, congress left no stone unturned.
With the Liberty, congress turned a blind eye.

"That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world's most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 173 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);

"2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;

"3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty's firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty's life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;

"4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

"5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States..."

The Moorer Commission

 

[Discombobulated]

I remember this incident well, in 1968 the North Koreans commandeered the USS Pueblo, also a surveillance ship gathering intelligence. It hard to say what the reasons were for either incident, but of course people can read into it what they want. By the way, one of the biggest spy scandals in CIA history, involved a mole for Israel. Aldrich Ames. It's almost as if they don't trust us or something. They say, keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer...

The USS Pueblo was outfitted for the same intelligence gathering purpose as the USS Liberty. The North Koreans knew what they were looking at, strains credulity to imagine the Israelis didn't.

 

[Peach]

The USS Liberty was not mistaken for an Egyptian destroyer. This ship would be easily identified from the air and from surface vessels.

Accepting the premise the attack was deliberate: FALSE FLAG gone wrong, or CONSPIRACY, gone wrong?

Yes, I understand that you would rather not address the facts. Speculation is so much more fun.

No, I want to discuss the facts. The facts indicate negligence, that is why I asked for other explanations.

 

[Discombobulated]

I remember this incident well, also that same year the north Koreans commandeered the USS Pueblo, also a surveillance ship gathering intelligence. It hard to say what the reasons were for either incident, but of course people can read into it what they want. By the way, one of the biggest spy scandals in CIA history, involved a mole for Israel. Aldrich Ames. It's almost as if they don't trust us or something. They say, keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer...

It's also useful to contrast the behavior of the US Congress after each of those incidents.
With the Pueblo, congress left no stone unturned.
With the Liberty, congress turned a blind eye.

"That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world's most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 173 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);

"2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;

"3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty's firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty's life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;

"4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

"5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States..."

The Moorer Commission

The truth won't come out until after everyone connected with the incident is dead and buried.

 

[Discombobulated]

Accepting the premise the attack was deliberate: FALSE FLAG gone wrong, or CONSPIRACY, gone wrong?

Yes, I understand that you would rather not address the facts. Speculation is so much more fun.

No, I want to discuss the facts. The facts indicate negligence, that is why I asked for other explanations.

You aren't the least bit interested in any facts because the facts all point to a planned coordinated attack, not an accident.

 

[Peach]

I remember this incident well, in 1968 the North Koreans commandeered the USS Pueblo, also a surveillance ship gathering intelligence. It hard to say what the reasons were for either incident, but of course people can read into it what they want. By the way, one of the biggest spy scandals in CIA history, involved a mole for Israel. Aldrich Ames. It's almost as if they don't trust us or something. They say, keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer...

The USS Pueblo was outfitted for the same intelligence gathering purpose as the USS Liberty. The North Koreans knew what they were looking at, strains credulity to imagine the Israelis didn't.

Thus, the theory Israel attacked a US ship that had intercepted Israel communication of a planned attack on land. The plan was to blame this on Egypt, but the attack did not send all hands down. LBJ, was either bought off, or too engrossed in US dissent to care.

 

[Discombobulated]

It's also way more than obvious that the objective of the attack wasn't to merely sink the USS Liberty. The attack was designed to leave no witnesses.

 

[Peach]

It's also way more than obvious that the objective of the attack wasn't to merely sink the USS Liberty. The attack was designed to leave no witnesses.

US, Israeli, or both?

 

[Discombobulated]

It's also way more than obvious that the objective of the attack wasn't to merely sink the USS Liberty. The attack was designed to leave no witnesses.

US, Israeli, or both?

I have no idea, I can only look at the facts as we all know them.

 

[Kondor3]

Yes, I understand that you would rather not address the facts. Speculation is so much more fun.

No, I want to discuss the facts. The facts indicate negligence, that is why I asked for other explanations.

You aren't the least bit interested in any facts because the facts all point to a planned coordinated attack, not an accident.

In order to make a Murder charge stick, you have to serve-up a motive, as well as a smoking gun.

You still haven't provided a plausible motive, that outweighs the risks.

 

[Discombobulated]

No, I want to discuss the facts. The facts indicate negligence, that is why I asked for other explanations.

You aren't the least bit interested in any facts because the facts all point to a planned coordinated attack, not an accident.

In order to make a Murder change stick, you have to serve-up a motive, as well as a smoking gun.

You still haven't provided a plausible motive, that outweighs the risks.

Again, you people can speculate on motives, I'll stick to the facts we know.

 

[Peach]

You aren't the least bit interested in any facts because the facts all point to a planned coordinated attack, not an accident.

In order to make a Murder change stick, you have to serve-up a motive, as well as a smoking gun.

You still haven't provided a plausible motive, that outweighs the risks.

Again, you people can speculate on motives, I'll stick to the facts we know.

Motive isn't necessary, a mistake can lead to deadly intentional acts.