Using a motor and cardboard to build circuitry

[trevorjohnson83]

Interesting stuff. Is there any computer guys that can tell me if this BS or not?

If you can imagine putting a spinning motor under a piece of cardboard so the energy of the motor is converted into vibration of the cardboard evenly, can you correctly analogize about how surface area of the cardboard is similar to electronic components in this mechanical circuit correctly?


ChatGPT

Poe
Certainly! I can provide an analogy based on the scenario you described:

Imagine the spinning motor beneath the piece of cardboard represents an energy source in a mechanical circuit, and the vibration of the cardboard represents the energy distribution throughout the circuit. In this analogy, we can draw a parallel between the surface area of the cardboard and electronic components in the circuit.

Just as the surface area of the cardboard determines how evenly the vibration is distributed across its surface, the electronic components in a circuit play a role in distributing and managing the flow of electrical energy.

For example, imagine the cardboard has multiple small holes or slits. These holes can be seen as analogous to electronic components such as resistors, capacitors, or inductors. Each hole or slit on the cardboard represents a component that affects the distribution or manipulation of the vibration energy.

Similarly, in an electrical circuit, different electronic components can be seen as different elements that control the flow of electrical energy, such as resistors that impede the flow, capacitors that store and release energy, or inductors that resist changes in current.

The size, shape, and arrangement of the holes or slits on the cardboard can be likened to the specific properties and characteristics of electronic components. Just as different components have different effects on the energy flow in an electrical circuit, the variations in size, shape, and distribution of the holes or slits on the cardboard can impact how the vibration energy is distributed and transmitted.

By adjusting the configuration of the holes or slits on the cardboard, you can control the way the energy is distributed across its surface. Similarly, in an electrical circuit, by selecting and arranging different electronic components, you can control the flow and distribution of electrical energy throughout the circuit.

It's important to note that while this analogy helps illustrate the concept of energy distribution and the role of electronic components in a mechanical circuit, it should be understood as a simplified representation and does not capture the full complexity of electrical circuits or the behavior of electronic components.

I went in further to see what it was talking about to use cut out shapes to mimic electronic components and It was BS but I thought of this....(can anyone explain?)



I was thinking you could cut the cardboard into the shape of a hourglass and the center would transfer less mechanical vibrations to the other side, the mechanical vibrations could then be used for torque. Is there an electronics component this could be likened to?

ChatGPT

The hourglass shape you're describing, where the center transfers less mechanical vibrations to the other side, can be likened to a mechanical filter or a shock absorber in electronics.

1. Mechanical Filter: In electronics, mechanical filters are used to select or reject specific frequencies, allowing certain signals to pass through while attenuating others. The hourglass shape could represent a mechanical filter that allows certain mechanical vibrations (analogous to specific frequencies in electronics) to pass through while attenuating or blocking others.
2. Shock Absorber: A shock absorber in electronics could be represented by the hourglass shape as well. It absorbs and dissipates mechanical energy or vibrations, ensuring that only the desired amount of energy reaches the other side.

So, in this analogy, the hourglass-shaped cardboard serves as a mechanical filter or shock absorber, allowing for the controlled transfer of mechanical vibrations, much like electronic components that manipulate the flow of electrical signals in circuits.



Why is it important in electronic circuitry that the motor energy be divided up into different strength's along the cardboard?

ChatGPT

In electronic circuitry, the division of motor energy into different strengths or amplitudes along the cardboard (or any signal path) serves several crucial purposes:

1. Signal Processing: Electronic components often require specific input signal levels to function optimally. Dividing the motor energy into different strengths allows for signal processing to occur. For example, amplifiers can increase the strength of weak signals, while attenuators can reduce the strength of strong signals, ensuring that components further down the circuit receive the appropriate signal levels.
2. Preventing Overloading: Overloading electronic components with excessive energy can damage them or lead to inaccurate operation. Dividing the energy helps prevent overloading by ensuring that each component receives a suitable signal strength within its operating range.
3. Signal Control: Different electronic components, such as transistors, diodes, or capacitors, may require specific input levels to perform their intended functions. Adjusting the signal strength allows for precise control over these components, enabling them to carry out tasks like switching, rectifying, or filtering signals effectively.
4. Noise Reduction: In electronic circuits, noise or unwanted interference can degrade the quality of signals. By controlling and dividing energy levels, circuits can reduce noise susceptibility and maintain signal integrity.
5. Compatibility: Different parts of an electronic circuit may be designed to work with specific signal levels or voltage ranges. Dividing the motor energy ensures compatibility between these components, making it possible for them to work together seamlessly.
6. Efficiency: Some electronic components operate more efficiently within a certain range of signal strengths. Dividing the energy allows for efficient utilization of these components and minimizes power wastage.

Overall, the careful division and control of energy levels in electronic circuits are fundamental for ensuring proper functionality, protection of components, and the ability to process and manipulate signals effectively.



Can you imagine an entirely mechanical computer using the cardboard and the motor?

ChatGPT

Certainly, I can help you imagine an entirely mechanical computer concept based on your cardboard and motor setup. Here's a creative interpretation:
Mechanical Computer with Cardboard and Motor:
1. Input Mechanism: In this mechanical computer, user input is provided through a series of levers and buttons made of cardboard. When a lever is pushed or a button is pressed, it physically moves a set of gears and cams.
2. Mechanical Memory: Instead of traditional electronic memory, your mechanical computer could have a series of rotating disks or cylinders, each with a pattern of holes and ridges. These patterns represent binary data (0s and 1s). The rotation of these disks can be controlled by the cardboard levers and buttons.
3. Processing Unit: The heart of the mechanical computer is a complex system of gears and cams that interpret the patterns on the memory disks and perform logical operations. Different combinations of gears and cams can represent various arithmetic and logic functions.
4. Output Mechanism: To display results, your mechanical computer could have a series of mechanical displays or indicators. For instance, a rotating disc with painted symbols could show numbers or letters.
5. Clockwork Timing: To synchronize operations, a clockwork mechanism powered by the motor controls the timing of the computer. The motor's speed can be controlled to regulate the clock speed of the computer.
6. Complex Operations: By manipulating the levers and buttons, users can perform complex calculations or tasks. For example, adding two numbers would involve setting the positions of specific levers to read data from the memory disks, performing the addition mechanically, and then displaying the result.
7. Mechanical Sound Effects: As a charming feature, your mechanical computer could produce audible clicks, whirs, and clunks as it performs operations, adding a unique sensory dimension to the computing experience.
While this entirely mechanical computer would be much slower and less versatile than modern electronic computers, it showcases the ingenuity of mechanical engineering and provides a hands-on, tactile approach to computing. It's a fascinating blend of old-world craftsmanship and computational logic.
Keep in mind that building such a device would be a complex and ambitious project, but it could serve as a captivating educational tool and a testament to the history of computing.

 

[badger2]

Wow.

 

[JGalt]

I think I just went blind.

 

[toobfreak]

Interesting stuff. Is there any computer guys that can tell me if this BS or not?

There is some theoretical analogy in the idea but in principle, while you might cause a hole to impart some desired resistive or reactive quality to mechanical propagation, not only couldn't the energy be controlled in sufficient degrees of complexity to be very useful, but there would be no way to shape the reactance of the energy storage by the holes to simulate the phase or the type of reactance much less emulate the qualities of transconductive devices. Besides, the energy put out for the energy put in would be terribly inefficient, subject to line frequency and mechanical wear.

 

[trevorjohnson83]

There is some theoretical analogy in the idea but in principle, while you might cause a hole to impart some desired resistive or reactive quality to mechanical propagation, not only couldn't the energy be controlled in sufficient degrees of complexity to be very useful, but there would be no way to shape the reactance of the energy storage by the holes to simulate the phase or the type of reactance much less emulate the qualities of transconductive devices. Besides, the energy put out for the energy put in would be terribly inefficient, subject to line frequency and mechanical wear.

We're you able to understand everything chatgpt said? Was there any part that you would say was BS?

 

[toobfreak]

We're you able to understand everything chatgpt said? Was there any part that you would say was BS?

Just skimmed through it. There is nothing new to the idea of mechanical (or acoustical) analogies to electrical circuits. Digital principle is after all BASED on analogies.

 

[trevorjohnson83]

Just skimmed through it. There is nothing new to the idea of mechanical (or acoustical) analogies to electrical circuits. Digital principle is after all BASED on analogies.

does any of this make sense?

How does your mechanical computer you invented use the the vibrations of the motor?



In the mechanical computer I described, the vibrations generated by the motor play a crucial role in the overall operation. Here's how the vibrations are utilized:
1. Input Mechanism: The vibrations from the motor are transferred to a set of resonating components within the input mechanism. These resonators, made of flexible materials or springs, respond to the vibrations by oscillating at specific frequencies. When a user presses a lever or button, it interacts with these oscillating components.
2. Mechanical Memory: The mechanical memory disks or cylinders are designed with tiny ridges or bumps on their surfaces. These ridges are strategically positioned to resonate with the vibrations from the motor. As the memory disks rotate, the vibrations interact with the ridges, creating distinct patterns of vibrations that represent binary data. Sensors detect these patterns to read the stored data.
3. Processing Unit: The vibrations also drive the complex system of gears and cams in the processing unit. Different components of this unit are tuned to resonate with specific frequencies generated by the motor's vibrations. As the mechanical logic gates and arithmetic units process data, they rely on the timing and synchronization provided by these vibrations.
4. Clockwork Timing: The motor's vibrations act as the primary source of timing for the computer. By adjusting the speed and frequency of the motor, users can control the clock speed of the computer, effectively overclocking or underclocking it based on their needs.
5. Sound Feedback: As a side effect, the motor's vibrations produce audible sounds. These sounds serve as feedback to users, indicating that the computer is actively processing data. Different operations might produce distinct sounds, adding a unique auditory dimension to the computing experience.
In this way, the vibrations of the motor become an integral part of the mechanical computer's operation, providing synchronization, data encoding, and user feedback. The design ensures that every mechanical component of the computer is finely tuned to resonate with specific frequencies, enabling the computer to function effectively as a fully mechanical computational device.

 

[toobfreak]

does any of this make sense?

Once again, all fine in theory. Extremely difficult to implement though in PRACTICE. Would require extremely precise and delicate manufacture and adjustment with constant maintenance.

Kind of reminds me of this musical instrument:



But just because it can be done, would you build a musical instrument that way?

 

[trevorjohnson83]

But just because it can be done, would you build a musical instrument that way?

someone somewhere else said there might be interest in a mechanical computer to go into highly radioactive situations, is that true? and here's a bunch of parts i threw together does it make any sense to electronics as a something?
I'm imagining an entire ly mechanical computer using a keyboard where pressure on a key adjusts the center piece to the hourglass shape, providing torque that spins a lock like a bke chain lock and then that unlocks a certain amplifier made of weights and levers that turns a wheel storing energy that unlocks a much larger spring to perform a task? can you compare the different process's to computer mechanics correctly and correct me where I might be wrong?

 

[toobfreak]

someone somewhere else said there might be interest in a mechanical computer to go into highly radioactive situations, is that true? and here's a bunch of parts i threw together does it make any sense to electronics as a something?
I'm imagining an entire ly mechanical computer using a keyboard where pressure on a key adjusts the center piece to the hourglass shape, providing torque that spins a lock like a bke chain lock and then that unlocks a certain amplifier made of weights and levers that turns a wheel storing energy that unlocks a much larger spring to perform a task? can you compare the different process's to computer mechanics correctly and correct me where I might be wrong?

I charge $60/hour for engineering analysis. But my impression is that if you have to ask the question, then you probably shouldn't be seeking the answers. But if you are indeed interested in trying to make rube goldberg contraptions, they can be fun and exciting and educational, and who knows what you will turn up!

 

[trevorjohnson83]

can you write a better analogy between the motor under the cardboard to an electronic component? consider that the surface area of the cardboard can be shaped like a river to cause currents.



Certainly, let's refine the analogy to create a closer comparison between the motor under the cardboard and an electronic component, considering the shaping of the surface area like a river to create currents:
Analogy: Motor-Driven Cardboard Surface as a Transistor
Imagine the setup with a motor placed under a cardboard surface shaped to resemble a river. In this analogy, we'll compare this arrangement to a field-effect transistor (FET), an essential electronic component.

1. Motor (FET Gate): The motor under the cardboard represents the gate terminal of an FET, a crucial part that controls the flow of a signal.
2. Cardboard Surface (FET Channel): The cardboard surface acts as the channel in the FET, analogous to the path for the flow of electrons in the transistor.
3. Shape of the Cardboard (Transistor Channel Design): The shape and configuration of the cardboard surface, like a river with varying depths and widths, are similar to the design of the channel region in an FET. The varying shapes can be thought of as the gate-source electric field influencing the channel's conductivity.
4. Motor Vibration (Controlled Signal): The vibrations generated by the motor symbolize the controlled signal or current passing through the FET channel.
5. Adjustable Cardboard Features (Transistor Properties): You can manipulate the surface area's features (e.g., depth, width, obstacles) to control the flow of "current" (motor vibrations) through the cardboard, much like adjusting the properties of an FET channel to modulate the flow of electrons.
6. Cardboard Output (Output Signal): The output or effects produced on the cardboard surface represent the output signal or result of the FET operation.

Operation:

• Activating the motor (gate terminal) allows vibrations to propagate through the cardboard channel (FET channel).
• By adjusting the shape and features of the cardboard surface (channel design), you control the flow of vibrations, analogous to how the properties of the FET channel regulate the flow of electrons.
• The output on the cardboard surface corresponds to the output signal or effects generated by the FET.

Analogy Explanation:
This analogy emphasizes the similarity between the cardboard setup with a motor and an FET transistor. The motor's role as the gate terminal controlling vibrations through the shaped cardboard channel aligns with how an FET gate terminal influences the flow of current through its channel. Manipulating the cardboard features to manage the vibrations mirrors how FET properties can be adjusted to control electron flow. The output on the cardboard surface signifies the outcome, which is equivalent to the output signal in electronic circuits.

 

[trevorjohnson83]

Can you invent a mechanical computer component with a bike lock for example memory?



Certainly! Let's imagine a mechanical computer component that incorporates a bike lock-like mechanism for memory storage:
Mechanical Computer Component: Memory Lock
Description:
The "Memory Lock" is a unique mechanical component designed to serve as a form of memory storage in a mechanical computer. It operates similarly to a bike lock but with some modifications to store binary data (0s and 1s) mechanically. Here's how it works:

1. Lock Mechanism: The Memory Lock consists of a cylindrical lock mechanism similar to a bike lock but with multiple positions for binary encoding.
2. Binary Encoding: The lock has two main positions, representing binary states: locked and unlocked. When in the locked position, it corresponds to a "0," and when in the unlocked position, it corresponds to a "1."
3. Recording Data: To write data into the Memory Lock, users turn the dial to the desired binary state (locked or unlocked) for each bit of information they want to store.
4. Data Retrieval: To read data from the Memory Lock, the user rotates the dial and observes the positions of each lock. The sequence of binary states (0s and 1s) is then interpreted as stored data.

Operation:

• Writing Data: To write "110101" into the Memory Lock, the user sets the dial to the corresponding positions: unlocked, locked, unlocked, locked, unlocked, locked.
• Reading Data: To read data, the user rotates the dial, observing the positions of each lock. If they find the sequence "110101," they interpret it as the stored data.

Usage:

• The Memory Lock could serve as a compact and durable form of mechanical memory for simple binary data storage in mechanical computers.
• It might be used for storing configuration settings, binary instructions, or as a counter for mechanical calculations.

Advantages:

• Mechanical reliability: The Memory Lock is robust and resistant to environmental factors.
• Simplicity: It offers straightforward binary data storage without the need for electricity.

Limitations:

• Limited capacity: The Memory Lock's capacity is limited to the number of positions on the dial.
• Readability: Interpreting the stored data requires manual observation and decoding.

This "Memory Lock" concept illustrates a mechanical computer component that stores binary data using a bike lock-inspired mechanism, providing a unique and tangible way to represent and manipulate information in a mechanical computer.

 

[trevorjohnson83]

can you explain a mechanical computer that uses the memory lock and the cardboard/ motor example?



Certainly! Let's design a simple mechanical computer that combines the "Memory Lock" component with the cardboard-and-motor setup. This computer will perform basic binary operations, such as addition and subtraction, using mechanical components.
Mechanical Computer with Memory Lock and Cardboard/Motor Component:
Components:

1. Memory Lock: This is the primary memory unit that stores binary data using the locking mechanism described earlier.
2. Cardboard/Motor Unit: This unit generates mechanical vibrations, and the cardboard is cut to create different effects, mimicking electronic circuits.

Operation:

1. Input: Users input binary data into the Memory Lock by turning the dial to the desired positions (locked or unlocked) for each bit.
2. Mechanical Processor: The cardboard-and-motor unit functions as a mechanical processor. It generates vibrations when activated and is equipped with adjustable sections of cardboard to simulate electronic circuits.
3. Binary Arithmetic: The computer can perform basic binary arithmetic operations (addition, subtraction) by transferring data between the Memory Lock and the cardboard unit.
   • Addition: To add two binary numbers, the computer would mechanically vibrate the cardboard unit in patterns representing binary addition rules. The result would be stored back in the Memory Lock.
   • Subtraction: Subtraction operations are similarly executed with mechanical vibrations and logic implemented in the cardboard unit.
4. Output: The final result of the computation can be read from the Memory Lock, where it's stored as binary data.

Example:
Let's say we want to add two binary numbers: 1011 and 1101.

1. Input "1011" into the Memory Lock by setting the dial positions accordingly.
2. Input "1101" into the Memory Lock as well.
3. Activate the cardboard-and-motor unit to perform binary addition:
   • The mechanical processor generates vibrations, simulating the binary addition process. For example, it might create vibrations to calculate each bit and carryover.
4. The result, "11000," is stored back in the Memory Lock.
5. Read the result from the Memory Lock as the final output.

Advantages:

• Simulates basic binary arithmetic operations using mechanical components.
• Provides a tangible way to understand binary computation.

Limitations:

• Limited capacity and complexity compared to electronic computers.
• Requires manual setup for each operation.

This mechanical computer combines the Memory Lock for data storage and the cardboard-and-motor unit for mechanical computation, allowing for basic binary calculations in a unique, physical way. It's an educational tool that helps users visualize binary operations in a mechanical context.

 

[trevorjohnson83]

can you write an analogy of a hoberman sphere acting as a gear that adjusts size and can be used as a gate computer component?



Certainly! Imagine a Hoberman sphere, which is known for its ability to expand and contract, like a versatile gear in a mechanical computer. In this analogy, the Hoberman sphere represents a unique computer component that can change its size to control the flow of data or physical processes within the computer.
Just as gears in a machine can adjust their speed or torque to match different tasks, the Hoberman sphere can expand or contract to regulate the passage of information or energy within the computer. Depending on its size, it can act as a gate, allowing specific operations or instructions to proceed or blocking them when needed.
So, this mechanical Hoberman sphere gear component serves as a dynamic regulator within the computer, adapting its size to optimize various processes and ensure efficient operation.

what applications would an adjustable gear in the hoberman ball be useful?



An adjustable gear component inspired by the Hoberman sphere could find various applications in mechanical and engineering systems where adaptability and versatility are essential. Here are some potential use cases:

1. Robotics: In robotic systems, these adjustable gears could be used in joints or limbs to vary the range of motion and adapt to different tasks or environments.
2. Automotive Industry: Such gears could be implemented in vehicles to optimize the transmission system, allowing for changes in speed and torque as needed, improving fuel efficiency and performance.
3. Industrial Automation: Adjustable gears could be used in conveyor systems, manufacturing equipment, and assembly lines, allowing for flexible control over the movement of parts and products.
4. Aerospace: In aerospace applications, these gears could be used to adjust the angles of control surfaces, optimize airflow, and enhance maneuverability.
5. Medical Devices: Precision and adaptability are crucial in medical equipment. These gears could be used in devices such as surgical robots or adjustable hospital beds.
6. Consumer Electronics: In consumer products like cameras or drones, these gears could control various aspects like zoom, focus, or rotor speed.
7. Construction and Architecture: They could find use in adjustable building structures, retractable roofs, or adaptive façades.
8. Entertainment and Art: In kinetic sculptures and interactive installations, adjustable gears could create captivating, dynamic movements.
9. Energy Sector: In renewable energy applications like wind turbines or solar trackers, these gears could optimize energy capture by adjusting the orientation of blades or panels.
10. Marine Industry: For ships and submarines, these gears could be used in propulsion systems or adjustable hull components.

The adaptability of these adjustable gears makes them versatile across industries where the ability to fine-tune mechanical systems to different conditions or requirements is crucial.

 

[trevorjohnson83]

I charge $60/hour for engineering analysis. But my impression is that if you have to ask the question, then you probably shouldn't be seeking the answers. But if you are indeed interested in trying to make rube goldberg contraptions, they can be fun and exciting and educational, and who knows what you will turn up!

Mr.Tube
what do you think of this convo

can you create a mechanical computer using the mechanical parts we've discussedm plus the hoberman sphere as a computer gate?



Creating a mechanical computer using the components we've discussed, along with a Hoberman sphere as a computer gate, is a fascinating concept. Here's a simplified representation of how such a mechanical computer might work:
Components:

1. Hoberman Sphere as a Gate: The Hoberman sphere serves as a gate component. When it expands or contracts, it allows or blocks the flow of mechanical energy within the computer.
2. Cardboard and Motor: The cardboard sheet with various shapes and the motor beneath it generate mechanical vibrations when the motor is activated.
3. Adjustable Gears: These gears control the flow of mechanical energy within the computer. The gears' adjustable properties allow for changing the speed and direction of the energy flow.
4. Memory Lock: A memory lock, like the one found on a bike lock, is used for storing information within the computer. When the lock is released, it triggers specific actions or calculations.

Mechanical Computer Operation:

1. Input: Users provide input by adjusting the Hoberman sphere. Expanding or contracting the sphere corresponds to binary input (0 or 1).
2. Data Storage: The memory lock stores the input as a bit of data. When locked, it stores a 0; when unlocked, it stores a 1.
3. Processing: The adjustable gears direct the flow of mechanical energy based on the stored data. Depending on the combination of locked and unlocked memory locks, the gears route the energy to different mechanical components.
4. Output: The mechanical energy is used to trigger specific actions or calculations. These actions might include moving levers, gears, or other mechanical components to perform calculations or solve problems.
5. Display: The mechanical computer could include a display mechanism, such as a rotating wheel with symbols or numbers, to represent the output or results of calculations.

Applications:
This mechanical computer could be a simplified demonstration of a mechanical logic gate or a basic mechanical calculator. While it's not as efficient as modern electronic computers, it illustrates how mechanical components can perform basic computational tasks based on user input.
Keep in mind that this is a highly simplified conceptual design. In practice, building a mechanical computer with these components would require precision engineering and thoughtful design to ensure accurate and reliable operation.

 

[miketx]

I think I just went blind.

I stayed sighted by not reading it.

 

[Ringo]

What "virtual reality" looked like in the nineteenth century

 

[Grumblenuts]

I'd substitute things like "Cow Pies" for "cardboard" and "butts" for "holes" and then see what the Chatbot cranks out..

 

[trevorjohnson83]

I'd substitute things like "Cow Pies" for "cardboard" and "butts" for "holes" and then see what the Chatbot cranks out..

An adjustable gear component inspired by the Hoberman sphere could find various applications in mechanical and engineering systems where adaptability and versatility are essential. Here are some potential use cases:

1. Robotics: In robotic systems, these adjustable gears could be used in joints or limbs to vary the range of motion and adapt to different tasks or environments.
2. Automotive Industry: Such gears could be implemented in vehicles to optimize the transmission system, allowing for changes in speed and torque as needed, improving fuel efficiency and performance.
3. Industrial Automation: Adjustable gears could be used in conveyor systems, manufacturing equipment, and assembly lines, allowing for flexible control over the movement of parts and products.
4. Aerospace: In aerospace applications, these gears could be used to adjust the angles of control surfaces, optimize airflow, and enhance maneuverability.
5. Medical Devices: Precision and adaptability are crucial in medical equipment. These gears could be used in devices such as surgical robots or adjustable hospital beds.
6. Consumer Electronics: In consumer products like cameras or drones, these gears could control various aspects like zoom, focus, or rotor speed.
7. Construction and Architecture: They could find use in adjustable building structures, retractable roofs, or adaptive façades.
8. Entertainment and Art: In kinetic sculptures and interactive installations, adjustable gears could create captivating, dynamic movements.
9. Energy Sector: In renewable energy applications like wind turbines or solar trackers, these gears could optimize energy capture by adjusting the orientation of blades or panels.
10. Marine Industry: For ships and submarines, these gears could be used in propulsion systems or adjustable hull components.

The adaptability of these adjustable gears makes them versatile across industries where the ability to fine-tune mechanical systems to different conditions or requirements is crucial.

 

[Grumblenuts]

So the AI simply ignored the cow pies and butts?