Unions Case Against Wage Cuts

[sealybobo]

Chris Chafe, head of the labor federation Change to Win, thinks that these cost-cutting strategies could be disastrous down the road.

"Look at what happened in Japan during the 1990s," he says. "They never pulled themselves out of recession there because they did not feed the most valuable drivers of consumer purchasing, which is workers."

"So what we see happening in the layoffs and the wage cuts, we believe is actually just following the worst possible model," he says. "If we continue to cut jobs in this country, if we continue to cut wages, we're actually taking money out of the pockets of the people who are going to spend that money and help drive our recovery."

Of course, this isn't the easiest time to tell companies that they ought to be raising wages. Even so, Chafe says, layoffs and wage cuts will only dig a deeper hole for the economy.

On the other hand, companies argue that wage cuts, while painful, save jobs by spreading the loss. Chafe says that if both the company and its employees agree that's the right idea, then that should be their prerogative. But the general trend of wage cuts, he says, is "actually worsening the spiral into an even greater depression."

"We believe that there are probably other pools of funds that could be looked at across the board," he says. "All these factors should be put on the table, not simply workers' pay. That's often the first thing that gets put on the table."

FedEx Pay Cuts Spark Union Talk : NPR

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yeah let's have companies who have seen declining demand for their products and services and therefore less revenue, hire more people and give everyone a raise. FYI businesses don't have the luxury of being able to tax people in order to fund deficit spending.

Just goes to show you what a fucking idiot this union whore is

 

[sealybobo]

Yeah let's have companies who have seen declining demand for their products and services and therefore less revenue, hire more people and give everyone a raise. FYI businesses don't have the luxury of being able to tax people in order to fund deficit spending.

Just goes to show you what a fucking idiot this union whore is

They don't have to hire more people. Just don't cut the workers wages.

What sense does this make Skull?

ravaged economy has left most of us in a perilous position. I, like you, am cutting back on many things, even skipping meals at school because of the price of food.

Not everyone is in this position, though, as CEOs of major corporations have fat bonus checks to stuff into their bank accounts.

We are all, at this point in the game, well aware of the golden parachute problem: CEOs of failing companies are paid a severance package of millions, serving as a nice reward for running their companies into the ground; however, the fun doesn’t end there.

CEOs of companies still operational, though being hammered with profit loss, are receiving massive bonus checks – clearly a pat on the back for a job well done. Wall Street is essentially in ruins and these executives are receiving millions of dollars.
According to the New York Times, Wall Street executives were paid $18.4 million in bonuses in 2008 – down 44 percent from 2007 but still the sixth largest total in history.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yeah let's have companies who have seen declining demand for their products and services and therefore less revenue, hire more people and give everyone a raise. FYI businesses don't have the luxury of being able to tax people in order to fund deficit spending.

Just goes to show you what a fucking idiot this union whore is

They don't have to hire more people. Just don't cut the workers wages.

What sense does this make Skull?

ravaged economy has left most of us in a perilous position. I, like you, am cutting back on many things, even skipping meals at school because of the price of food.

Not everyone is in this position, though, as CEOs of major corporations have fat bonus checks to stuff into their bank accounts.

We are all, at this point in the game, well aware of the golden parachute problem: CEOs of failing companies are paid a severance package of millions, serving as a nice reward for running their companies into the ground; however, the fun doesn’t end there.

CEOs of companies still operational, though being hammered with profit loss, are receiving massive bonus checks – clearly a pat on the back for a job well done. Wall Street is essentially in ruins and these executives are receiving millions of dollars.
According to the New York Times, Wall Street executives were paid $18.4 million in bonuses in 2008 – down 44 percent from 2007 but still the sixth largest total in history.

If the money isn't coming in, what do you expect a business owner to do?

Seriously, If a business is taking in 30% less than last year and its fixed operating costs like electricity, heat, etc have stayed the same (and will most likely go up when Obama rams cap and trade taxes down our throats) what choice is there but to lay someone off or cut hours or cut pay?

Again this union idiot knows shit about running a business.

 

[sealybobo]

Yeah let's have companies who have seen declining demand for their products and services and therefore less revenue, hire more people and give everyone a raise. FYI businesses don't have the luxury of being able to tax people in order to fund deficit spending.

Just goes to show you what a fucking idiot this union whore is

They don't have to hire more people. Just don't cut the workers wages.

What sense does this make Skull?

ravaged economy has left most of us in a perilous position. I, like you, am cutting back on many things, even skipping meals at school because of the price of food.

Not everyone is in this position, though, as CEOs of major corporations have fat bonus checks to stuff into their bank accounts.

We are all, at this point in the game, well aware of the golden parachute problem: CEOs of failing companies are paid a severance package of millions, serving as a nice reward for running their companies into the ground; however, the fun doesn’t end there.

CEOs of companies still operational, though being hammered with profit loss, are receiving massive bonus checks – clearly a pat on the back for a job well done. Wall Street is essentially in ruins and these executives are receiving millions of dollars.
According to the New York Times, Wall Street executives were paid $18.4 million in bonuses in 2008 – down 44 percent from 2007 but still the sixth largest total in history.

If the money isn't coming in, what do you expect a business owner to do?

Seriously, If a business is taking in 30% less than last year and its fixed operating costs like electricity, heat, etc have stayed the same (and will most likely go up when Obama rams cap and trade taxes down our throats) what choice is there but to lay someone off or cut hours or cut pay?

Again this union idiot knows shit about running a business.

If that is the case, then so be it. But did you read the story? The companies can find other places OTHER THAN labor to cut costs.

And who will buy their goods and services if all across America workers are asked to take a pay cut? Do you just ignore that point? Consumer spending makes up 2/3'rds of GDP. You are fucking with GDP.

You see where we are now, right? Everyone is cutting back, no one is spending. Seems the worse thing you can do is cut everyones pay as the costs of living go up.

And maybe the CEO's should have thought about this when determining that they should get $20 million dollars a year for the last 8 years. Huh? Ya think?

 

[Skull Pilot]

They don't have to hire more people. Just don't cut the workers wages.

What sense does this make Skull?

ravaged economy has left most of us in a perilous position. I, like you, am cutting back on many things, even skipping meals at school because of the price of food.

Not everyone is in this position, though, as CEOs of major corporations have fat bonus checks to stuff into their bank accounts.

We are all, at this point in the game, well aware of the golden parachute problem: CEOs of failing companies are paid a severance package of millions, serving as a nice reward for running their companies into the ground; however, the fun doesn’t end there.

CEOs of companies still operational, though being hammered with profit loss, are receiving massive bonus checks – clearly a pat on the back for a job well done. Wall Street is essentially in ruins and these executives are receiving millions of dollars.
According to the New York Times, Wall Street executives were paid $18.4 million in bonuses in 2008 – down 44 percent from 2007 but still the sixth largest total in history.

If the money isn't coming in, what do you expect a business owner to do?

Seriously, If a business is taking in 30% less than last year and its fixed operating costs like electricity, heat, etc have stayed the same (and will most likely go up when Obama rams cap and trade taxes down our throats) what choice is there but to lay someone off or cut hours or cut pay?

Again this union idiot knows shit about running a business.

If that is the case, then so be it. But did you read the story? The companies can find other places OTHER THAN labor to cut costs.

And who will buy their goods and services if all across America workers are asked to take a pay cut? Do you just ignore that point? Consumer spending makes up 2/3'rds of GDP. You are fucking with GDP.

You see where we are now, right? Everyone is cutting back, no one is spending. Seems the worse thing you can do is cut everyones pay as the costs of living go up.

And maybe the CEO's should have thought about this when determining that they should get $20 million dollars a year for the last 8 years. Huh? Ya think?

You are such a fucking lap dog.

So every business that has employees has CEOs taking 20 million dollar bonuses? The percentage of business owners who take that kind of pay is minuscule and you hold it up as the norm.

And just where do you propose businesses cut costs? Stop matching retirement funds? Stop funding health care? How about reducing all vacations to one week and eliminating all holidays?

You can't cut back on safety, you can't cut back on payroll taxes, you can't cut back on unemployment or social security taxes, you can't cut back on workman's comp or other liability insurances. Vendors are raising prices as well. So where oh union business guru does a business owner cut expenses?

There are standards that must be met in all businesses and if the money isn't coming in there are only so many costs that aren't fixed.

So you complain about people's pay getting cut while costs of living goes up but you are too thick to realize that a business's costs rise as well and if the money isn't there it can't be conjured.

 

[sealybobo]

If the money isn't coming in, what do you expect a business owner to do?

Seriously, If a business is taking in 30% less than last year and its fixed operating costs like electricity, heat, etc have stayed the same (and will most likely go up when Obama rams cap and trade taxes down our throats) what choice is there but to lay someone off or cut hours or cut pay?

Again this union idiot knows shit about running a business.

If that is the case, then so be it. But did you read the story? The companies can find other places OTHER THAN labor to cut costs.

And who will buy their goods and services if all across America workers are asked to take a pay cut? Do you just ignore that point? Consumer spending makes up 2/3'rds of GDP. You are fucking with GDP.

You see where we are now, right? Everyone is cutting back, no one is spending. Seems the worse thing you can do is cut everyones pay as the costs of living go up.

And maybe the CEO's should have thought about this when determining that they should get $20 million dollars a year for the last 8 years. Huh? Ya think?

You are such a fucking lap dog.

So every business that has employees has CEOs taking 20 million dollar bonuses? The percentage of business owners who take that kind of pay is minuscule and you hold it up as the norm.

And just where do you propose businesses cut costs? Stop matching retirement funds? Stop funding health care? How about reducing all vacations to one week and eliminating all holidays?

You can't cut back on safety, you can't cut back on payroll taxes, you can't cut back on unemployment or social security taxes, you can't cut back on workman's comp or other liability insurances. Vendors are raising prices as well. So where oh union business guru does a business owner cut expenses?

There are standards that must be met in all businesses and if the money isn't coming in there are only so many costs that aren't fixed.

So you complain about people's pay getting cut while costs of living goes up but you are too thick to realize that a business's costs rise as well and if the money isn't there it can't be conjured.

No, I think you underestimate how many corporations are doing this and how many executives at each company are doing this.

You seem to think I'm referring to the mom and pop shop business owners. I am not. I'm talking about publicly traded companies. Automotive suppliers, not just the Big 3.

My brother's job before he became a VP for another auto supplier was to pay the big wigs their bonus'. But not just the big wigs. Every stinking lousy white collar person in the place.

You may not know this, but rule number one in these executive offices is to Feed the Generals First.

What is rule number 2? Never forget rule number 1.

You think I'm kidding?

They are all more worried about their compensation than they are the success of the company.

So when they need to cut costs, they send jobs overseas, lay people off, cut wages.

But they NEVER cut their own pay.

My theory is that if you see a CEO taking a pay cut today, its because he/she has accumilated so much wealth in the last few years, that it doesn't even matter.

And they bankrupt themselves on purpose. No biggy. They'll just go to work for another firm, show them how to restructure/break unions/lower wages and increase their bonus', etc.

Yes, I do know how it works. And you act like it isn't the norm. That's because you don't know anyone on the inside.

And my brother, who is typically liberal, does not like to hear anything about limiting CEO pay. That's because he might be one some day. Of course he doesn't want that.

And seeing how most Americans are like you and don't realize how much this is happening, that's the problem.

Just like it took you years to realize we were lied into Iraq, you are slow on this one too.

 

[Skull Pilot]

OK BOO BOO you are all knowing only you can see what ALL businesses are like. What ALL people get paid

Why do I even bother.?

 

[sealybobo]

OK BOO BOO you are all knowing only you can see what ALL businesses are like. What ALL people get paid

Why do I even bother.?

All across America, corporations are doing this. Why do you ignore it? The CEO's of one company sit on the BOD of other corporations.

Do you not watch the news?

The oil companies and bankers are just the biggest companies fucking your asshole Skull.

Oh yea, you think the media is liberal. I forgot.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

If it's between having your wages cut or losing your job altogether which do you choose? Companies don't have unlimited funds. If they're losing money then they can either cut wages or cut jobs, but giving out raises doesn't make much sense.

 

[editec]

The whole problem if you keep going back to the numbers can be laid ultimately at the foot of the alter of FREE TRADE.

 

[sealybobo]

If it's between having your wages cut or losing your job altogether which do you choose? Companies don't have unlimited funds. If they're losing money then they can either cut wages or cut jobs, but giving out raises doesn't make much sense.

If you put it that way, I would agree with you.

But when you look at how the white collar people are paid, you see that it isn't the labor that should be taking a pay cut.

Look at the banks. They lost money and the CEO's gave themselves bonus'.

You want us to assume that the banks are the only ones raping the system.

Congress is looking into the Treasury Department's management of the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program. Lawmakers want to know why banks that have received billions of dollars of taxpayer money are not doing more lending. And why are they paying bonus'?

I'm sure there is an explanation that you are willing to swallow. Let me know when you find it.

Here, let me give you another example. Ed Schultz looked into the executive pay at Blue Cross Blue Shield. Why? Because his premiums went up from $1000 a month to $1400 a month.

Since 2000, their pay has skyrocketed.

Ok, so justify this story:

Blue Cross wants to cut up to 1,000 jobs, raise rates
Hikes to be sought on individual health policies

Facing what it says could be losses of more than $1 billion through 2011, Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan said Friday it will cut as many as 1,000 jobs and seek state approval to raise rates on its individual health insurance products.

This is happening everywhere, not just Michigan.

But you don't see a connection between executive pay and having to raise rates and lay off/cut wages of labor?

Ok dude. Blue Cross wants to cut up to 1,000 jobs, raise rates | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yeah it's better for the government to keep milk, sugar, and wheat prices artificially high. And to enact protectionist policies that saddle the consumers with overpriced poorly made goods.

 

[sealybobo]

The whole problem if you keep going back to the numbers can be laid ultimately at the foot of the alter of FREE TRADE.

In 2003-2006, I would show that CEO pay was up and the company was laying off labor. If you did the math, it seemed like the savings weren't to save the company or make it more profitable, it was so the executives could make more money.

Now some Republicans deny this, and some argue that the CEO's and executives should be making more and labor should be making less.

10,000 employees x $40,000 a year is $40 million. If you add up all the CEO's and VP's and HR Directors and MKT directors, etc, they probably got that money saved in their bonus'.

American International Group Inc., the insurer whose bonuses and perks are under fire from U.S. lawmakers, offered cash awards to another 38 executives in a retention program with payments of as much as $4 million.

The incentives range from $92,500 to $4 million for employees earning salaries between $160,000 and $1 million, Chief Executive Officer Edward Liddy said in a letter dated Dec. 5 to Representative Elijah Cummings. The New York-based insurer had previously disclosed that 130 managers would get the awards and that one executive would get $3 million.

naked capitalism: AIG Fesses Up to Handing Out More Non-Bonus Bonuses

 

[sealybobo]

Yeah it's better for the government to keep milk, sugar, and wheat prices artificially high. And to enact protectionist policies that saddle the consumers with overpriced poorly made goods.

I'd pay $1 more for milk if it meant wages would go up.

And every country except the US practices some protectionism. Only the US doens't, because it is trying to set up a new world order where they control the entire world.

And labor gets left behind.

 

[Bern80]

OK BOO BOO you are all knowing only you can see what ALL businesses are like. What ALL people get paid

Why do I even bother.?

All across America, corporations are doing this. Why do you ignore it? The CEO's of one company sit on the BOD of other corporations.

Do you not watch the news?

The oil companies and bankers are just the biggest companies fucking your asshole Skull.

Oh yea, you think the media is liberal. I forgot.

Then prove it. There is no point having an argument that is based on an unproven assumption. That's the only way you're argument works. Do ridiculous bonuses at ridiculous times occur? Probably. Is it how most bunsiness owners run their business? Probably not. I am willing to bet you can only come up with a handful of companies that are guilty of what you suggest. I think your brother's personal experience is what makes you think thisnis common place. Well in my personal experience, it isn't. I may have mentioned that everyone at my employer, except the execs, took a 10% pay cut. The execs took a 15% cut.

No one is ignoring anything and we probably all share a similar level of disgust to owners that do that. If you actually knew the truth would you make the same argument? Probably not. So maybe it would be prudent to find out the truth first.

The msm media is liberally biased bobo. The only people that don't think so are those that are even further left.

 

[sealybobo]

Yeah let's have companies who have seen declining demand for their products and services and therefore less revenue, hire more people and give everyone a raise. FYI businesses don't have the luxury of being able to tax people in order to fund deficit spending.

Just goes to show you what a fucking idiot this union whore is

Can I bump my own thread?

Unions under Biden did great and that means the middle class won

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/28/unions-with-power-popularity-rising-are-still-losing-a-big-battle.html

This is how you MAGA. America is already great for everyone except blue collar. Pay them more! But Skull Pilot will tell you he doesn't want to pay employees more. Only CEO's.

Blue States Line Up To Ban Anti-Union ‘Captive Audience’ Meetings​

Illinois is about to become the latest state to bar employers from pressuring workers with anti-union talk. But legal challenges lie ahead for these laws.

 

[sealybobo]

Then prove it. There is no point having an argument that is based on an unproven assumption. That's the only way you're argument works. Do ridiculous bonuses at ridiculous times occur? Probably. Is it how most bunsiness owners run their business? Probably not. I am willing to bet you can only come up with a handful of companies that are guilty of what you suggest. I think your brother's personal experience is what makes you think thisnis common place. Well in my personal experience, it isn't. I may have mentioned that everyone at my employer, except the execs, took a 10% pay cut. The execs took a 15% cut.

No one is ignoring anything and we probably all share a similar level of disgust to owners that do that. If you actually knew the truth would you make the same argument? Probably not. So maybe it would be prudent to find out the truth first.

The msm media is liberally biased bobo. The only people that don't think so are those that are even further left.

You attacked unions in the 2000's. You guys said unions have outlived their usefulness. Yea, because you don't want labor having a seat at the table.

And since we last spoke, how much has CEO pay gone up and how much has your pay? I'll tell you. Back in the 2000's my brother a VP of a fortune 500 made about half a mill. Today he makes $1 mill. And the woman/black guy who took over for him make even more. They were DEI hires.

Clearly Unions are still important and Republicans hate unions/labor/the middle class.

10 Victories for the Working Class in 2023

From the picket lines to state houses to the White House, champions in the fight against inequality landed some huge wins.

inequality.org

 

[sealybobo]

Then prove it. There is no point having an argument that is based on an unproven assumption. That's the only way you're argument works. Do ridiculous bonuses at ridiculous times occur? Probably. Is it how most bunsiness owners run their business? Probably not. I am willing to bet you can only come up with a handful of companies that are guilty of what you suggest. I think your brother's personal experience is what makes you think thisnis common place. Well in my personal experience, it isn't. I may have mentioned that everyone at my employer, except the execs, took a 10% pay cut. The execs took a 15% cut.

No one is ignoring anything and we probably all share a similar level of disgust to owners that do that. If you actually knew the truth would you make the same argument? Probably not. So maybe it would be prudent to find out the truth first.

The msm media is liberally biased bobo. The only people that don't think so are those that are even further left.

Labor Unions Haven't Been This Popular In Almost 60 Years, New Poll Shows

A new Gallup survey shows the popularity of unions isn’t fading.

www.huffpost.com

Americans’ Approval Of Labor Unions Near Highest Level Since 1960s​

A new Gallup survey shows the popularity of unions isn’t fading.

Seventy percent of respondents said they hold a favorable view of unions, up slightly from 67% in 2023. Only 23% said they disapprove of unions.

You're in the minority friend.

 

[sealybobo]

Yeah let's have companies who have seen declining demand for their products and services and therefore less revenue, hire more people and give everyone a raise. FYI businesses don't have the luxury of being able to tax people in order to fund deficit spending.

Just goes to show you what a fucking idiot this union whore is

CEO pay has skyrocketed in the years since you wrote this. Shareholders too. Profits up. How? Because they haven't given the workers raises.

You Republicans have never been for labor.

New Starbucks CEO Brian Niccol commits to working with union as talks move forward​

This is how you fix the middle class. From the 70's to now, union membership went from 35% of our workforce to about 5%. Too low. Workers lost their power. Their seat at the table. You saw how many different industries had strikes last year and the workers won. That means the middle class won. Other companies are shitting their pants. Giving raises before their employees organize into unions.