Ukraine in NATO?!

[AntonToo]

Many countries in NATO have.

are you seriously talking about Nazi Germany…as a NATO member?

Do you have any idea how fucking dumb that is?

 

[AntonToo]

Gaining what?

The infeasibility of Ukraine's accession to NATO:

Can a country at war join NATO?

No country has officially joined NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) while actively engaged in a war. NATO has a membership policy that requires prospective members to demonstrate stability, democratic governance, and a commitment to peaceful resolutions of conflicts.

https://www.quora.com/Has-any-other-country-joined-NATO-during-a-war#:~:text=No country has officially joined,to peaceful resolutions of conflicts.

True, but in discussion is Ukraine settling disputed territories with Russia for membership in NATO.

It’s more than feasible.

 

[kyzr]

Gaining what?

The infeasibility of Ukraine's accession to NATO:

Can a country at war join NATO?

No country has officially joined NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) while actively engaged in a war. NATO has a membership policy that requires prospective members to demonstrate stability, democratic governance, and a commitment to peaceful resolutions of conflicts.

https://www.quora.com/Has-any-other-country-joined-NATO-during-a-war#:~:text=No country has officially joined,to peaceful resolutions of conflicts.

I'd call Ukraine being admitted to NATO as a commitment to peaceful resolution of conflict.
Russia needs to know that there is no winning in Ukraine and getting a fair peace deal is better than a long term war with no prospect of winning. We'll see how stupid Putin is.

 

[AtlasWept]

Can we at last acknowledge that having Ukraine join NATO was a bad idea? (Strategically, this is on par with Russia placing missiles in Cuba.) If we really thought Russia was so weak as to not oppose this idea, why didn't NATO just move into Ukraine and take over its defense? One explanation for pushing Ukraine to join NATO is that hatred towards Russia was ginned up in response to Russia's alleged interference in the 2016 US Presidential election. Do you have another explanation for why we wanted Ukraine to join NATO?

A "bad idea" is allowing a potential enemy dictating who can be your ally. If Russia feels threatened, then perhaps they should examine the historical record with regard to their behavior. Freedom is a threat to tyrannical leaders. Tyranny is a threat to everyone but the tyrannical leader.

 

[Rogue AI]

Your post offers critique' but not a better solution.
We can't keep funding Ukraine's war with Russia.
My solution of admitting Ukraine into NATO is the fastest and cheapest off-ramp.

What hypocrisy? We and other NATO members GUARANTEED Ukraine's security when they gave up their nukes, its in the Budapest Memorandum. Does the US bail on treaties? Russia would be stupid to spill any NATO blood.

Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's Europe's problem, they must learn to deal with Russia on their terms, not ours. There no future for us allowing dependents to determine our future with their petty squabbles.

Why owe Ukraine nothing, if we were serious it would have been settled with a proper treaty not empty words. We need to focus on eradicating the narco corruption to our south. More than 100,000 Americans are dying every year from that.

We've learned nothing in the past 60+ years. Adventurism across the globe hasn't benefitted us at all, quite the contrary.

 

[kyzr]

It's Europe's problem, they must learn to deal with Russia on their terms, not ours. There no future for us allowing dependents to determine our future with their petty squabbles.

Why owe Ukraine nothing, if we were serious it would have been settled with a proper treaty not empty words. We need to focus on eradicating the narco corruption to our south. More than 100,000 Americans are dying every year from that.

We've learned nothing in the past 60+ years. Adventurism across the globe hasn't benefitted us at all, quite the contrary.

1. Agree that the EU needs to step up and support Ukraine, but keeping Putin in his borders is important. The US has an interest in weakening Russia.

2. We owe Ukraine their security for giving up their nukes. See the Budapest Memorandum.

3. Agree we need Trump in the WH to seal the border.

4. What adventurism? I'd say "we are not the world's cop".

 

[jwoodie]

A "bad idea" is allowing a potential enemy dictating who can be your ally. leader.

Isn't that exactly what we have done? Before Russia invaded, we didn't give a shit about Ukraine. Was Ukraine an "ally" when Russia took back the Crimea in 2014? What had changed in 2022?

 

[AntonToo]

Before Russia invaded, we didn't give a shit about Ukraine.

Were you alive and conscious in 2013-2014 when Maidan was happening in Ukraine?

U.S. Sen. John McCain took in the anti-government protest scene in Kiev’s Independence Square, known as the Maidan, on Saturday, snapping pictures with his cell phone as he met with opposition leaders.

He called it an “incredible display of patriotism” in a tweet that includes an aerial photo of the square. McCain also said he was with the younger brother of heavyweight boxing champion Vitali Klitschko, who is one of the opposition leaders.

The Republican senator has been critical of Ukrainian authorities’ use of force against protesters.


“If Ukraine’s government thinks that brute force and the politics of fear can see it through the current crisis, it is woefully mistaken,” McCain said in a statement last week.

Ukrainian protesters get visit from Sen. John McCain

Top U.S. official visits protesters in Kiev as Obama admin. ups pressure on Ukraine president Yanukovich

Top U.S. diplomat visits anti-gov’t protesters in Kiev day after Kerry voices "disgust" with Ukraine's leaders, and as riot police pull out following clashes

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Rogue AI]

1. Agree that the EU needs to step up and support Ukraine, but keeping Putin in his borders is important. The US has an interest in weakening Russia.

2. We owe Ukraine their security for giving up their nukes. See the Budapest Memorandum.

3. Agree we need Trump in the WH to seal the border.

4. What adventurism? I'd say "we are not the world's cop".

That's the wrong way of thinking. 'Weakening' others does not strengthen us.

 

[AntonToo]

That's the wrong way of thinking. 'Weakening' others does not strengthen us.

wtf? Thats not what he said.

World is much better off with humbled Russia, worse off with Russia that thinks that invasions pay off.

Peaceful, stable wolrd is our interest, not being stronger in itself.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Can we at last acknowledge that having Ukraine join NATO was a bad idea? (Strategically, this is on par with Russia placing missiles in Cuba.) If we really thought Russia was so weak as to not oppose this idea, why didn't NATO just move into Ukraine and take over its defense? One explanation for pushing Ukraine to join NATO is that hatred towards Russia was ginned up in response to Russia's alleged interference in the 2016 US Presidential election. Do you have another explanation for why we wanted Ukraine to join NATO?

Oh

Fuck

Nooooooooooooo

 

[Rogue AI]

wtf? Thats not what he said.

World is much better off with humbled Russia, worse off with Russia that thinks that invasions pay off.

Peaceful, stable wolrd is our interest, not being stronger in itself.

Bang up job on that. The world has never been so unstable. Clearly your way of thinking is failing on every level.

 

[kyzr]

Bang up job on that. The world has never been so unstable. Clearly your way of thinking is failing on every level.

President Trump = stable world

President Biden = world on fire

 

[frigidweirdo]

Can we at last acknowledge that having Ukraine join NATO was a bad idea? (Strategically, this is on par with Russia placing missiles in Cuba.) If we really thought Russia was so weak as to not oppose this idea, why didn't NATO just move into Ukraine and take over its defense? One explanation for pushing Ukraine to join NATO is that hatred towards Russia was ginned up in response to Russia's alleged interference in the 2016 US Presidential election. Do you have another explanation for why we wanted Ukraine to join NATO?

It'd have been a great idea, BEFORE the invasion.

Why? Because the Ukraine produces massive amounts of surplus food.

The Arab Spring happened because the Ukraine and western Russia had poor crops. That's how important they are.

And with the Ukraine in the hands of the Russians, they're going to control food for the Middle East (That be where the oil is).

Unless the US gets away from oil, Russia is going to control the oil, going to control OPEC.

 

[frigidweirdo]

President Trump = stable world

President Biden = world on fire

Absolute nonsense.

Trump didn't solve the problem of Russia while he was president. Russia was still building up to take over the Ukraine while Trump was president.

Wagner was going around Africa doing what Wagner does.

Syria was happening still, ISIS was still happening and Trump claimed it was he who defeated ISIS but the facts prove him WRONG.

Israel was still creating the conditions for Hamas to attack, in fact Trump made it worse by moving the embassy to Jerusalem.

Yemen was still fighting, Iran was still a problem.

Trump signed the pull out for Afghanistan which his supporters said was a total disaster.

 

[AntonToo]

President Trump = stable world

President Biden = world on fire

Orban states that Trump told him he won't back Ukraine. How would that make for stable world?

Or do you just blindly trust in Dear Leader?

 

[AntonToo]

Bang up job on that. The world has never been so unstable. Clearly your way of thinking is failing on every level.

What the hell does that mean?

Instability was caused by Russia's insane invasion. Without millitary assistance Ukraine would have already fallen by now and Russia would be angling for Moldova and who knows what else.

 

[kyzr]

Absolute nonsense.
Trump didn't solve the problem of Russia while he was president. Russia was still building up to take over the Ukraine while Trump was president.
Wagner was going around Africa doing what Wagner does.
Syria was happening still, ISIS was still happening and Trump claimed it was he who defeated ISIS but the facts prove him WRONG.
Israel was still creating the conditions for Hamas to attack, in fact Trump made it worse by moving the embassy to Jerusalem.
Yemen was still fighting, Iran was still a problem.
Trump signed the pull out for Afghanistan which his supporters said was a total disaster.

1. Russia didn't attack while Trump was president, period, full stop.

2. Russia attacked while Biden was president, period, full stop.

3. Obama let ISIS expand to its fullest extent in 2015.

4. Trump eliminated the ISIS caliphate, period, full stop.

Raqqa Victory Means Trump Defeated ISIS In Months — After Years Of Excuses From Obama | Stock News & Stock Market Analysis - IBD

Nine months after President Trump promised to defeat ISIS "quickly and effectively," U.S.-backed forces captured Raqqa, which until Tuesday had served as the ISIS capital.

www.investors.com

5. Trump had a major diplomatic win with the Abraham Accords. Biden has no clue how to handle the ME.

6. Trump had zero US soldiers killed in AFG for 18-months, Biden's pullout was a disaster, US allies hold Biden in CONTEMPT.

Parliament holds Joe Biden in contempt over Afghanistan

MPs and peers unite to condemn ‘dishonour’ of US president’s withdrawal and his criticism of Afghan troops left behind to face Taliban

www.telegraph.co.uk

You can type all the lies you want, but the facts show Trump was always right, and Biden is always wrong.

 

[kyzr]

Orban states that Trump told him he won't back Ukraine. How would that make for stable world?
Or do you just blindly trust in Dear Leader?

Trump can say what he wants to now because he's looking at the financial cost.
After the House/Senate/DOD/NATO explain things to him he'll reevaluate.
Having the dollar crash is a worse outcome than Ukraine, besides, the EU deadbeat countries need to step up or Russia is on their border.

 

[AntonToo]

Trump can say what he wants to now because he's looking at the financial cost.
After the House/Senate/DOD/NATO explain things to him he'll reevaluate.

In other words yes, you just blindly trust that Trump will do what you consider to be the right thing even though there is strong evidence that his support for Ukraine is weak.

Amazing what cultism does to people's brain.