U.S. vs. China: What Aircraft Carriers Reveal About the Military Tech Race

[AZrailwhale]

Actually, even though you're an asshole, that was a fascinating link, thank you.

It was very superficial and didn't address any of the key issues. China has no AEW aircraft operational, and none in the near future, it has no air-to-air refueling capability limiting both the range and payload of the F-15s (monkey copies of SU-33s) The Chinese carrier only operates fighter-bombers, no ASW aircraft or dedicated attack aircraft. Plus, the Chinese carriers only can carry about half the aircraft an American carrier can. Finally, the Chinese have not only no combat experience flying from carriers, but no combat experience since the Sino-Vietnamese war of 1974 which China lost.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I don’t think the odds were ever in favor of Japan

In 1942, the odds favored Japan heavily. Six heavy carriers to four, two light fleet carriers to two, six light carriers to none. Twelve battleships to four. The only area where the US had superiority was in light cruisers the IJN had nineteen, the USN had twenty-two almost all larger and better armed than the IJN cruisers.

 

[rightwinger]

In 1942, the odds favored Japan heavily. Six heavy carriers to four, two light fleet carriers to two, six light carriers to none. Twelve battleships to four. The only area where the US had superiority was in light cruisers the IJN had nineteen, the USN had twenty-two almost all larger and better armed than the IJN cruisers.

Economically, we were a Super Power
It was only a matter of time

We were able to conduct war in two theaters on opposite sides of the world

 

[whitehall]

We fought and won a 'modern' naval war in 1942, despite the odds favoring Japan.

When you A S S U M E you make an ass of U and me. I learned that a long time in Police basic school and it's good for the Military. FDR may have assumed that the Fleet was safe in Hawaii or maybe he was dying and some unelected drone was in charge of the Military.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Economically, we were a Super Power
It was only a matter of time

We were able to conduct war in two theaters on opposite sides of the world

I agree, but in 1942 little of that power had been harnessed.

 

[ABikerSailor]

read the NYT piece on the topic in their latest issue

I'm interested, can you provide a link to the article?

 

[Dayton3]

Didn't say that. Said that because islands don't move, and they only have 3 carriers, global force projection is difficult, since they only have 3 carriers. We could put 5 carriers over there if needed, and still have 6 others to roam over other places in the world.

Global force projection cannot be done from an island.

As far as subs being the real advantage? If you are talking about our ballistic missile subs, they aren't as much of an advantage as they are a deterrent. If they have to launch their missiles, the whole world is gonna go to shit, because that means nuclear war. Fast attacks work about the same as a destroyer or cruiser, and are good for 1 to 1 or maybe 1 to 3 combat, but they aren't the force multiplier that you might think.

You do know I hope that all 11 U.S. carriers are not available for combat at one time?

 

[ABikerSailor]

You do know I hope that all 11 U.S. carriers are not available for combat at one time?

If it is necessary for all 11 to be deployed at the same time, that means there is more than likely a world war going on.

That being said, there is no way China can even come close to matching our ability, as they only have 3. We have over double that which are deployment ready/deployed. And, like I said, you can't project global power from an island.

 

[Dayton3]

If it is necessary for all 11 to be deployed at the same time, that means there is more than likely a world war going on.

That being said, there is no way China can even come close to matching our ability, as they only have 3. We have over double that which are deployment ready/deployed. And, like I said, you can't project global power from an island.

I know that. But if the Chinese are initiating a world war against the U.S. then the initiative lies with them meaning in all likelihood they will have more of their carriers combat ready than the U.S. will.

 

[AZrailwhale]

If it is necessary for all 11 to be deployed at the same time, that means there is more than likely a world war going on.

That being said, there is no way China can even come close to matching our ability, as they only have 3. We have over double that which are deployment ready/deployed. And, like I said, you can't project global power from an island.

With only three carriers, China would be lucky to have two operational unless they planned the war far in advance. If they did our intelligence agencies would see the signs and we would push more of our carriers to be operational. The best possible conditions for the Chinese would result in their three carriers against five of our larger, more capable carriers carrying more capable air groups. It’s more likely that the odds would be three to nine. A naval war would be a disaster for the Chinese with every merchant or military ship flying the PRC flag sunk within hours or days at worse. Then the USN would blockade China resulting in a melt-down of the Chinese economy.

 

[ABikerSailor]

I know that. But if the Chinese are initiating a world war against the U.S. then the initiative lies with them meaning in all likelihood they will have more of their carriers combat ready than the U.S. will.

China only has 3 carriers. The US has 11. Even if they got all 3 of their carriers ready and deployed, they would be met by at least that number of ours, with several others waiting in the wings to deploy if necessary. Additionally, Chinese carriers are only capable of carrying 50 to 65 aircraft. US carriers routinely deploy with 65, and if necessary, can up that number to over 100 aircraft. And, US carriers don't just deploy with fighter jets, they also have surveilance aircraft (Hawkeyes), as well as radar jamming aircraft (EA6 B Intruders), and helicopters capable of various things (sub hunting and rescue among them), in addition to the 50 or so fighter jets. Sorry, but even going toe to toe, and 1 to 1, China's carriers are far outclassed by ours.

And that's even before we start talking about the experience levels of US crews vs. experience levels of China's.

Unless China builds 3 times the amount of carriers they currently have (and it takes a LOT of money and time to build one), as well as learns how to make them nuclear rather than conventional (diesel) powered, they will not be a threat. I spent 20 years in the Navy, and one of my sea tours was with an aviation squadron that deployed on the USS DWIGHT D EISENHOWER, and the USS GEORGE WASHINGTON.

 

[rightwinger]

You do know I hope that all 11 U.S. carriers are not available for combat at one time?

Neither are Chinas

 

[Dayton3]

Neither are Chinas

China would be deciding when and where they would be fighting so they could be assured of having a larger percentage of their carriers available. that we are likely to.

 

[AZrailwhale]

China would be deciding when and where they would be fighting so they could be assured of having a larger percentage of their carriers available. that we are likely to.

If China has one hundred percent of their carriers operational and we only have fifty percent of ours, we heavily outnumber them in flight decks and even more heavily in aircraft.

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

While we can project naval AirPower around the globe, China’s four carriers can keep ours in check in their backyard

The US has 17 carriers. We also have air bases in South Korea and Japan.

 

[Dayton3]

If China has one hundred percent of their carriers operational and we only have fifty percent of ours, we heavily outnumber them in flight decks and even more heavily in aircraft.

Yes but you ignore the obvious.

China doesn't have to protect the rest of the worlds sea lanes like the U.S. does

 

[AZrailwhale]

Yes but you ignore the obvious.

China doesn't have to protect the rest of the worlds sea lanes like the U.S. does

In wartime the USA doesn't either. It can concentrate its carriers in the critical theater. Even in WWII the Atlantic was defended by second line forces. The first line naval forces were concentrated in the South and Central Pacific theaters.

 

[ABikerSailor]

The US has 17 carriers. We also have air bases in South Korea and Japan.

Might wanna look that number up again. The US only has 11 carriers (but that still outnumbers all other countries).

 

[ABikerSailor]

China would be deciding when and where they would be fighting so they could be assured of having a larger percentage of their carriers available. that we are likely to.

So what if China decides when and where they would be fighting? Having a larger percentage of their carriers available means nothing. Even if China had 100 percent of their carriers available and ready for deployment (3), we could have only 25 percent of ours available and ready, and STILL be equal to them. Chances are though, we'd have at least 70 percent of ours deployed or deployment available (8), which would be over double what China has.

Yes but you ignore the obvious.

China doesn't have to protect the rest of the worlds sea lanes like the U.S. does

Again, you seem to miss the point of having a carrier. It is a mobile airstrip, equipped with planes and weapons, capable of projecting power ANYWHERE in the world that has deep enough water (which is around 70 percent of the planet). Our carriers are nuclear powered and very fast. We could have carriers over in the Atlantic, shit goes down in the Pacific, and they could be redirected and available to fight within a week, wherever the Chinese carriers are. Yes, as discussed earlier, China has man made islands that have lots of aircraft on them, but islands CANNOT move to another location if needed elsewhere. All an island can do is protect itself and project limited power around it.

 

[Dayton3]

. We could have carriers over in the Atlantic, shit goes down in the Pacific, and they could be redirected and available to fight within a week, wherever the Chinese carriers are.

Wars have been effectively over in less than a week.