U.S getting spyed on by ally AGAIN?!!!

[Beelzebub]

That is a point with some merit Lipush.

But supporting a widely held international principle - like, rule of law - above what America is actually doing is not supporting a foreign power. It is supporting international law.

Supporting a specific nation, which is working against international law, and against the interests of the US would be treachery, for an American to do it.

So funding weapons into Gaza would be treachery. Spying for Israel would be treachery.
Calling for Israel to make peace when it both has the upper hand and is the aggressor is certainly NOT treachery, even if the person calling for it is an American Muslim.

 

[jillian]

This reminded me of when our ally wanted Pollard released last month was it?

http://www.newsweek.com/israels-aggressive-spying-us-mostly-hushed-250278

Despite strident denials this week by Israeli officials, Israel has been caught carrying out aggressive espionage operations against American targets for decades, according to U.S. intelligence officials and congressional sources. And they still do it. They just don’t get arrested very often.

As Newsweek reported on Tuesday, American counter-intelligence officials told members of the House Judiciary and Foreign Affairs committees at the end of January that Israel's current espionage activities in America are "unrivaled and unseemly," going far beyond the activities of other close allies, such as Germany, France, the U.K. and Japan.

and no, I'm not an antisemite, just a concerned American that someone who, BTW, receives BILLIONS U.S. taxpayer $$$/yr would continue doing this?

But a former U.S. intelligence operative intimately familiar with Israeli espionage rejected the anti-Semitism charge. “There is a small community of ex-CIA, FBI and military people who have worked this account who are absolutely cheering on [the Newsweek] story,” he said. “Not one of them is anti-Semitic. In fact, it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. It has only to do with why [Israel] gets kid-glove treatment when, if it was Japan doing it or India doing it at this level, it would be outrageous.”

discuss...

first...pollard SHOULD be released. his sentence was worse than any other convicted spy.

funny you don't mention that.

 

[Lipush]

Anyone who puts the interests of a foreign county over their own is a traitor.

I guess I can see your logic.

What about putting foreign interests over their own?

By that reason, many American Muslims are traitors, as well...

Lipush you are right... the logic should be applied equally. All peoples of all religions and backgrounds, hindu, muslim whatever -- who want to put the interests of their groups over their nation of citizenship should be called out.

That is why we should keep the religious Jewish rule of Dina Demalchuta Dina- The Law of the State.

It basically means that the law of the foreign state should be the law as long as it doesn't risk Jews, and that is why you don't usually hear about Jews rioting against rediculous laws in Europe concerning circumsition and slaughter (In some country they prohibit circumsition and Kosher slaughtering. While many Jews disagree and feel frustrated, they don't cause a violent mess).

However, as I previously mentioned, the Dina Demalchuta Dina, a thing that rooted in the Talmud, is in place only when they don't actually harm the Jews, and many believe that touching Israel or the Jews in Israel is the red line. That's why it's the gray area.

if going by this rule, putting Israel's interest above American ones is against Judaism itself, as long as it doesn't forsake lives. If it is the case, then not only by religious law, but the simple law of common sense people are expected to respond.

Again, it's a gray area

 

[marsnow]

first...pollard SHOULD be released. his sentence was worse than any other convicted spy.

funny you don't mention that.

WTF



May the fates give me patience.

 

[Lipush]

This reminded me of when our ally wanted Pollard released last month was it?

http://www.newsweek.com/israels-aggressive-spying-us-mostly-hushed-250278

Despite strident denials this week by Israeli officials, Israel has been caught carrying out aggressive espionage operations against American targets for decades, according to U.S. intelligence officials and congressional sources. And they still do it. They just don’t get arrested very often.

As Newsweek reported on Tuesday, American counter-intelligence officials told members of the House Judiciary and Foreign Affairs committees at the end of January that Israel's current espionage activities in America are "unrivaled and unseemly," going far beyond the activities of other close allies, such as Germany, France, the U.K. and Japan.

and no, I'm not an antisemite, just a concerned American that someone who, BTW, receives BILLIONS U.S. taxpayer $$$/yr would continue doing this?

But a former U.S. intelligence operative intimately familiar with Israeli espionage rejected the anti-Semitism charge. “There is a small community of ex-CIA, FBI and military people who have worked this account who are absolutely cheering on [the Newsweek] story,” he said. “Not one of them is anti-Semitic. In fact, it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. It has only to do with why [Israel] gets kid-glove treatment when, if it was Japan doing it or India doing it at this level, it would be outrageous.”

discuss...

first...pollard SHOULD be released. his sentence was worse than any other convicted spy.

funny you don't mention that.

He will soon be with us, he served his punishment and deserves his freedom

 

[Lipush]

first...pollard SHOULD be released. his sentence was worse than any other convicted spy.

funny you don't mention that.

WTF



May the fates give me patience.

She said something very reasonable.

 

[marsnow]

I guess I can see your logic.

What about putting foreign interests over their own?

By that reason, many American Muslims are traitors, as well...

Lipush you are right... the logic should be applied equally. All peoples of all religions and backgrounds, hindu, muslim whatever -- who want to put the interests of their groups over their nation of citizenship should be called out.

That is why we should keep the religious Jewish rule of Dina Demalchuta Dina- The Law of the State.

It basically means that the law of the foreign state should be the law as long as it doesn't risk Jews, and that is why you don't usually hear about Jews rioting against rediculous laws in Europe concerning circumsition and slaughter (In some country they prohibit circumsition and Kosher slaughtering. While many Jews disagree and feel frustrated, they don't cause a violent mess).

However, as I previously mentioned, the Dina Demalchuta Dina, a thing that rooted in the Talmud, is in place only when they don't actually harm the Jews, and many believe that touching Israel or the Jews in Israel is the red line. That's why it's the gray area.

if going by this rule, putting Israel's interest above American ones is against Judaism itself, as long as it doesn't forsake lives. If it is the case, then not only by religious law, but the simple law of common sense people are expected to respond.

Again, it's a gray area

Thank you for the info -- its interesting and illuminating.

 

[thanatos144]

Another thread that boils down to Liberal and isolationists screaming "Those damn Dirty Jews!"

 

[marsnow]

first...pollard SHOULD be released. his sentence was worse than any other convicted spy.

funny you don't mention that.

WTF



May the fates give me patience.

She said something very reasonable.

Really, I could not disagree more strongly. But I like your style so I will be polite on your behalf.

 

[marsnow]

Another thread that boils down to Liberal and isolationists screaming "Those damn Dirty Jews!"

Really, on my side, I just want my jewish human brothers and sisters to be able to live a normal life. Am proud of their contribution to American society. Their role in European society is no longer required, they can be whoever they want to be.

 

[Lipush]

That is a point with some merit Lipush.

But supporting a widely held international principle - like, rule of law - above what America is actually doing is not supporting a foreign power. It is supporting international law.

Supporting a specific nation, which is working against international law, and against the interests of the US would be treachery, for an American to do it.

So funding weapons into Gaza would be treachery. Spying for Israel would be treachery.
Calling for Israel to make peace when it both has the upper hand and is the aggressor is certainly NOT treachery, even if the person calling for it is an American Muslim.

I don't mean that.

I mean Muslims who act to enforce Sharia laws on America, like the Anjem Choudry group did in Britain.

Of course calling for Israel to do rasonable things for both itself and the Palestinians isn't treason, furthermore, it's even blessed on certain situation. I mean more drastic things.

 

[Lipush]

WTF



May the fates give me patience.

She said something very reasonable.

Really, I could not disagree more strongly. But I like your style so I will be polite on your behalf.

That's appreciated.

And please share. If someone is found guilty of treason, and serves life sentence, why is is illogical for some to want him out of prison?

He did his time, next year, God willing, he will return to his family. This is how it works. You serve time, you walk out.

If that is what the Americans decided, shey should keep their word.

 

[Lipush]

Lipush you are right... the logic should be applied equally. All peoples of all religions and backgrounds, hindu, muslim whatever -- who want to put the interests of their groups over their nation of citizenship should be called out.

That is why we should keep the religious Jewish rule of Dina Demalchuta Dina- The Law of the State.

It basically means that the law of the foreign state should be the law as long as it doesn't risk Jews, and that is why you don't usually hear about Jews rioting against rediculous laws in Europe concerning circumsition and slaughter (In some country they prohibit circumsition and Kosher slaughtering. While many Jews disagree and feel frustrated, they don't cause a violent mess).

However, as I previously mentioned, the Dina Demalchuta Dina, a thing that rooted in the Talmud, is in place only when they don't actually harm the Jews, and many believe that touching Israel or the Jews in Israel is the red line. That's why it's the gray area.

if going by this rule, putting Israel's interest above American ones is against Judaism itself, as long as it doesn't forsake lives. If it is the case, then not only by religious law, but the simple law of common sense people are expected to respond.

Again, it's a gray area

Thank you for the info -- its interesting and illuminating.

That's what so fascinating about the Talmud. It offers both the cruelest and the kindest laws Simultaneously

 

[Beelzebub]

That is a point with some merit Lipush.

But supporting a widely held international principle - like, rule of law - above what America is actually doing is not supporting a foreign power. It is supporting international law.

Supporting a specific nation, which is working against international law, and against the interests of the US would be treachery, for an American to do it.

So funding weapons into Gaza would be treachery. Spying for Israel would be treachery.
Calling for Israel to make peace when it both has the upper hand and is the aggressor is certainly NOT treachery, even if the person calling for it is an American Muslim.

I don't mean that.

I mean Muslims who act to enforce Sharia laws on America, like the Anjem Choudry group did in Britain.

Of course calling for Israel to do rasonable things for both itself and the Palestinians isn't treason, furthermore, it's even blessed on certain situation. I mean more drastic things.

Then we are probably mostly in agreement on this point.
How nice.

Only: Spying in America for Israel is still treachery, if you are an American.
It gets a bit confusing if you have joint nationality.

 

[thanatos144]

Another thread that boils down to Liberal and isolationists screaming "Those damn Dirty Jews!"

Really, on my side, I just want my jewish human brothers and sisters to be able to live a normal life. Am proud of their contribution to American society. Their role in European society is no longer required, they can be whoever they want to be.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk]Disney's Frozen "Let It Go" Sequence Performed by Idina Menzel - YouTube[/ame]

It is kind of hard to live a normal life when they are surrounded by people who want to kill ever man woman and child Jew on the planet.....i am sure you wouldn't shed a tear.

 

[marsnow]

That is a point with some merit Lipush.

But supporting a widely held international principle - like, rule of law - above what America is actually doing is not supporting a foreign power. It is supporting international law.

Supporting a specific nation, which is working against international law, and against the interests of the US would be treachery, for an American to do it.

So funding weapons into Gaza would be treachery. Spying for Israel would be treachery.
Calling for Israel to make peace when it both has the upper hand and is the aggressor is certainly NOT treachery, even if the person calling for it is an American Muslim.

I don't mean that.

I mean Muslims who act to enforce Sharia laws on America, like the Anjem Choudry group did in Britain.

Of course calling for Israel to do rasonable things for both itself and the Palestinians isn't treason, furthermore, it's even blessed on certain situation. I mean more drastic things.

Then we are probably mostly in agreement on this point.
How nice.

Only: Spying in America for Israel is still treachery, if you are an American.
It gets a bit confusing if you have joint nationality.

We should remove dual nationality for all countries so all of our citizens can have clarity -- they are American now, no matter what. In the US it only became possible in the 50s or 60s if I recall correctly.

 

[thanatos144]

Trying to remember when it was that all those damn Dirty Jews in Israel cowardly attacked us and killed thousands??????

 

[Lipush]

I don't mean that.

I mean Muslims who act to enforce Sharia laws on America, like the Anjem Choudry group did in Britain.

Of course calling for Israel to do rasonable things for both itself and the Palestinians isn't treason, furthermore, it's even blessed on certain situation. I mean more drastic things.

Then we are probably mostly in agreement on this point.
How nice.

Only: Spying in America for Israel is still treachery, if you are an American.
It gets a bit confusing if you have joint nationality.

We should remove dual nationality for all countries so all of our citizens can have clarity -- they are American now, no matter what. In the US it only became possible in the 50s or 60s if I recall correctly.

That's an overkill

 

[marsnow]

Another thread that boils down to Liberal and isolationists screaming "Those damn Dirty Jews!"

Really, on my side, I just want my jewish human brothers and sisters to be able to live a normal life. Am proud of their contribution to American society. Their role in European society is no longer required, they can be whoever they want to be.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk]Disney's Frozen "Let It Go" Sequence Performed by Idina Menzel - YouTube[/ame]

It is kind of hard to live a normal life when they are surrounded by people who want to kill ever man woman and child Jew on the planet.....i am sure you wouldn't shed a tear.

Buddy, I shed a tear for all humans everywhere on this miserable planet who undergo hardship. We have all suffered, and maybe they suffered uniquely. I want Jewish humans to be able to be the human beings that they are, not trapped in the horror show you just outlined.

 

[Lipush]

That is a point with some merit Lipush.

But supporting a widely held international principle - like, rule of law - above what America is actually doing is not supporting a foreign power. It is supporting international law.

Supporting a specific nation, which is working against international law, and against the interests of the US would be treachery, for an American to do it.

So funding weapons into Gaza would be treachery. Spying for Israel would be treachery.
Calling for Israel to make peace when it both has the upper hand and is the aggressor is certainly NOT treachery, even if the person calling for it is an American Muslim.

I don't mean that.

I mean Muslims who act to enforce Sharia laws on America, like the Anjem Choudry group did in Britain.

Of course calling for Israel to do rasonable things for both itself and the Palestinians isn't treason, furthermore, it's even blessed on certain situation. I mean more drastic things.

Then we are probably mostly in agreement on this point.
How nice.

Only: Spying in America for Israel is still treachery, if you are an American.
It gets a bit confusing if you have joint nationality.

From an American point of view, you're very much correct.

From an Israeli view, we cannot view Jonathan Pollard as a traitor. He's very loved and after the deal that failed, Most of us see him as a righteous and a hero.

He refused to be released because it meant terrorists being released and risking Israelis. The people here applauded his courage.

I guess that from American point of view its much different. But It's understandable.

Many in USA saw Va'anunu as a hero, while we hated him...