CDZ Two options...the European model of self defense, and the American model of Self defensse.

[2aguy]

So how do you feel about permits to own fully automatic rifles? Should everybody be allowed to own them without a permit?

Nope...because the next step is permits for semi-autos, just like you assholes put some weapons on the ATF list, and now there are democrats who want to put all guns on that list........you idiot.

 

[2aguy]

Ok. There is a cost for everything. I have a constitutional right to own a home and property, but that doesn't mean I don't have to pay taxes. With gun registration and background checks, it has been determined that it is constitutional to require those things, but there is a cost for all the record keeping involved. Since you, and only you receive the benefit of your gun registration, it is fair and reasonable for you and only you to pay for the cost of your paperwork.

No, it hasn't.......they have never been addressed by the Supreme Court....

And this...unless registration is free and background checks are free...they violate the Constitution...

Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105 (1943)

4. A State may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution. P. 319 U. S. 113.

5. The flat license tax here involved restrains in advance the Constitutional liberties of press and religion, and inevitably tends to suppress their exercise. P. 319 U. S. 114.
6. That the ordinance is "nondiscriminatory," in that it applies also to peddlers of wares and merchandise, is immaterial. The liberties guaranteed by the First Amendment are in a preferred position. P. 319 U. S. 115.
7. Since the privilege in question is guaranteed by the Federal Constitution, and exists independently of state authority, the inquiry as to whether the State has given something for which it can ask a return is irrelevant. P. 319 U. S. 115.

8. A community may not suppress, or the State tax, the dissemination of views because they are unpopular, annoying, or distasteful. P. 319 U. S. 116.
------

Page 319 U. S. 108

The First Amendment, which the Fourteenth makes applicable to the states, declares that
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press . . ."


It could hardly be denied that a tax laid specifically on the exercise of those freedoms would be unconstitutional. Yet the license tax imposed by this ordinance is, in substance, just that.

 

[Batcat]

Right. There is a whole class of people you vote against because the NRA has told you that even though there has never been an effort to confiscate guns, you are in danger of it happening. You aren't as situationally aware as you think you are.

There hasn’t been an effort to confiscate guns because the Democrats have never been able to muster the votes. Hopefully those votes never will be there.

 

[Batcat]

BULLDOG

I like to point out that you are much more likely to be caught in a fire, so using your logic, you are much more protected, and you would be much more reasonable if you have a fire extinguisher strapped to your leg 24/7. Just be honest and admit you've watched a few too many old Dirty Harry movies, and you think the idea of being an armed tough guy is cool.

I have a fire extinguisher 10 feet from where I am typing right now. I have fire alarms to alert me if there is a fire so I have no reason to carry a fire extinguisher with me at all times.

I don’t like Dirty Harry style movies as they are not realistic. In fact I rarely watch movies but watch news and documentary programs most often.

No, I don’t view myself as a tough guy. I am at the ripe old age of 75 with a bad hip and back. If I wanted to feel I was a tough guy I would likely carry a large, heavy 1911 style .45 auto but instead I carry a light .38 snub nosed revolver. Such revolvers are often called “mouse guns“ by many but they are easy to carry and conceal. Florida, where I live, does not permit open carry in public.

 

[Batcat]

.

Although I respect your daughter's instructor and how they choose to teach their students ...
Martial Arts, including Judo and Jujitsu, provide Escape as an Option ... Not a Requirement.

.​

My daughter’s judo instructor was Ed Maley.

Ed Maley - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ed Maley, the people’s sensei, taught judo to thousands in Tampa

Mr. Maley died on Oct. 2 at age 87 following a decade-long battle with multiple myeloma.

www.tampabay.com

 

[BlackSand]

My daughter’s judo instructor was Ed Maley.

Ed Maley - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ed Maley, the people’s sensei, taught judo to thousands in Tampa

Mr. Maley died on Oct. 2 at age 87 following a decade-long battle with multiple myeloma.

www.tampabay.com

.

Thanks ... You agree he deserves the respect I gave him.

.​

 

[BULLDOG]

So then you're OK with requiring permits for all your protected rights?

If you want freedom of speech you have to pay for a permit
If you want to keep and bear arms, pay up
If you want your Miranda rights or you want to take the fifth , pay up

If you want to vote....

Well that's pretty dumb. Nothing near what I wrote.

 

[Batcat]

.

Thanks ... You agree he deserves the respect I gave him.

.​

Yes. Ed Marley was a fascinating man. He personally taught his classes which not all martial arts instructors do. My daughter learned a lot from him as he was good at building character in teenagers.

The Air Force sent him to Japan to learn judo as too many of its pilots were getting hurt in bar fights. He then trained pilots so they would survive a bar fight. I had a co-worker who had been an Air Force pilot and was trained by Ed.

Being skillful at judo and jujitsu enabled my daughter to avoid being bullied.

 

[BlackSand]

The Air Force sent him to Japan to learn judo as too many of its pilots were getting hurt in bar fights. He then trained pilots so they would survive a bar fight. I had a co-worker who had been an Air Force pilot and was trained by Ed.

Being skillful at judo and jujitsu enabled my daughter to avoid being bullied.

.

I got a Lifetime Ban from a local nightclub when some Airmen decided they needed to mess with me (Army) and few Marines.
Those Airmen could have used some of Ed's training ... They should have never started that mess ...


.​

 

[flacaltenn]

Murder rate in UK v US

United Kingdom vs United States: Crime > Violent crime Facts and Stats

Murders, Murder rate per million people, Intentional homicide rate, Murder rate, Murders per million people

www.nationmaster.com

4 times more in US...

The OP can try and paint a picture all he likes but the facts are... Armed Robbery in UK is a lot rarer in UK than in US... Armed Violence is a lot less, to the point that the police don't regularly carry guns...

Guess what you are 99 times less likely to be shot by UK police that US Police... Yes that is 99 times, 70 times if you are white...

Lets be clear there is plenty of countries in the world who are very happy with there gun laws and in UK they consider US laws barbaric... US has mass shootings every other day, this just doesn't happen at the same frequency in Europe...

UK want gun laws even stricter

Gun ownership: three quarters of Britons want stricter laws | YouGov

Approaching two in five think firearm ownership should be illegal

yougov.co.uk

Look at this poll:
View attachment 612412

Why do they want guns gone... Because they kill people... Gun in UK are considered to part of a hobby, Gun Clubs are actually big advocates of gun laws and safety... US gun laws are considered worldwide as highly irresponsible and idiotic...

UK also wants MORE knives and bats banned. It's almost impossible to defend yourself and the police are there with only chalk sticks and ambulances. YOU can be prosecuted if a burglar hurts themselves breaking into your home and stuff !!

British Politicians Declare War on Knives

Having failed to thwart crime with gun bans, British officials now want to restrict what may be the most useful tool ever invented.

reason.com

One reason why these gun discussions go nowhere is because it's EASY TO LIE and misrepresent statistics and no one on a message board has the motivation or patience to GET the definitions used and analyze the methodology. You should ALWAYS take ANY gun related "statistic" or graph with hefty skepticism UNLESS you've invested the time to analyze it yourself. Good examples right here.

You Know Less Than You Think About Guns

The misleading uses, flagrant abuses, and shoddy statistics of social science about gun violence

reason.com

Another recent well-publicized study trying to assert a positive connection between gun laws and public safety was a 2013 JAMA Internal Medicine article by the Harvard pediatrics professor Eric W. Fleegler and his colleagues, called "Firearm Legislation and Firearm-Related Fatalities in the United States." It offered a mostly static comparison of the toughness of state gun laws (as rated by the gun control lobbyists at the Brady Center) with gun deaths from 2007 to 2010.

"States with strictest firearm laws have lowest rates of gun deaths," a Boston Globe headline then announced. But once again, if you take the simple, obvious step of separating out suicides from murders, the correlations that buttress the supposed causations disappear. As John Hinderaker headlined his reaction at the Power Line blog, "New Study Finds Firearm Laws Do Nothing to Prevent Homicides."

Among other anomalies in Fleegler's research, Hinderaker pointed out that it didn't include Washington, D.C., with its strict gun laws and frequent homicides. If just one weak-gun-law state, Louisiana, were taken out of the equation, "the remaining nine lowest-regulation states have an average gun homicide rate of 2.8 per 100,000, which is 12.5% less than the average of the ten states with the strictest gun control laws," he found.

__________________________________________________

Suicides are OFTEN lumped in gun deaths. There are obviously more than 12 ways to commit suicide without a gun. Most of the public is unaware that suicides account for about 60% of "gun deaths".

It’s Time to Recognize Suicide as a Driver of Gun-Related Deaths - Harvard Political Review

If activists hope to significantly reduce gun violence in American society, they must overcome this culture of silence and consider the close link between access to guns and suicide.

harvardpolitics.com

Yet while mass shootings are unique in causing many fatalities in a short amount of time, they actually represent a small percentage of overall gun deaths in the United States. Of the 35,637 firearm deaths that occurred from January-November 2019, 21,912 or 61.5 percent of them were suicides. This reality defies popular perception: Most Americans are unaware that suicides represent such a high percentage of gun deaths. According to an October 2019 poll by the American Public Media Research Lab, only 23 percent of Americans correctly identified suicides as the leading cause of gun fatalities.

 

[BlackSand]

One reason why these gun discussions go nowhere is because it's EASY TO LIE and misrepresent statistics and no one on a message board has the motivation or patience to GET the definitions used and analyze the methodology. You should ALWAYS take ANY gun related "statistic" or graph with hefty skepticism UNLESS you've invested the time to analyze it yourself.

.

Which doesn't matter if and when you can defend yourself, and your Rights, with something more than words and statistics.

.​

 

[flacaltenn]

.

Which doesn't matter if and when you can defend yourself, and your Rights, with something more than words and statistics.

.​

Oh -- WORDS are a BIG problem in the UK/Canada and elsewhere. The UK can issue ASBO anti-social behavior orders and RESTRICT your ability to move, or associate. Goes as far as tracking devices, probation hearings, ect.

WIDE definition includes "lying for personal gain" bullying, intimidation -- a catch-all for stuff that's not proper or woke.

Anti-Social Behaviour Orders | What Is an ASBO? | DPP Law

If you have been served with an ASBO warning, speak to DPP Law's criminal defence solicitors regarding all anti-social behaviour orders today.

www.dpp-law.com

What is Anti-social Behaviour?

Anti-social behavior is defined as any action or actions that violate what is socially acceptable in ways that reflect disrespect or disregard for others, or violation of the rights of other people.

healthtian.com

Anti-social behavior is made up of a wide range of habits and practices such as bullying, initiating physical fights, being reckless towards others, lying to other people for personal gains, and even engaging in unlawful activities that do not hurt others directly, but indirectly harm people such as vandalizing own property or stealing.

A distinction among the different anti-social behaviors is whether the act is Covert or overt. That is to say, whether the action is hidden from other people. A second distinction is whether or not the behavior is a destructive one, whether it directly causes harm to someone else.

-------------------------------------

Any country that can disarm you of self-defense can then smother the rest of your rights slowly and completely. Because they dont respect you as a sovereign, capable person anymore.

 

[BlackSand]

Oh -- WORDS are a BIG problem in the UK/Canada and elsewhere. The UK can issue ASBO anti-social behavior orders and RESTRICT your ability to move, or associate. Goes as far as tracking devices, probation hearings, ect.

WIDE definition includes "lying for personal gain" bullying, intimidation -- a catch-all for stuff that's not proper or woke.

Anti-Social Behaviour Orders | What Is an ASBO? | DPP Law

If you have been served with an ASBO warning, speak to DPP Law's criminal defence solicitors regarding all anti-social behaviour orders today.

www.dpp-law.com

What is Anti-social Behaviour?

Anti-social behavior is defined as any action or actions that violate what is socially acceptable in ways that reflect disrespect or disregard for others, or violation of the rights of other people.

healthtian.com

Anti-social behavior is made up of a wide range of habits and practices such as bullying, initiating physical fights, being reckless towards others, lying to other people for personal gains, and even engaging in unlawful activities that do not hurt others directly, but indirectly harm people such as vandalizing own property or stealing.

A distinction among the different anti-social behaviors is whether the act is Covert or overt. That is to say, whether the action is hidden from other people. A second distinction is whether or not the behavior is a destructive one, whether it directly causes harm to someone else.

-------------------------------------

Any country that can disarm you of self-defense can then smother the rest of your rights slowly and completely. Because they dont respect you as a sovereign, capable person anymore.

.

Words are often the weapons of bullies ... Especially in the woke crowd.

There are some people who will not answer or respond to anything other than bare naked aggression.
Fortunately ...What I have for them isn't restricted to words.

A defensive posture is still appropriate until they leave you no other choice.

.​

 

[flacaltenn]

So how do you feel about permits to own fully automatic rifles? Should everybody be allowed to own them without a permit?

I'm OK with permits on full automatics. But, the number of permit holders shouldn't have arbitrary restrictions on them. I think the DOD would appreciate having young folks TRAINED to use them.

My dad ran a "Junior Rifle League". We literally got free ammo from DOD direct. It was the "civilian markmanship program". They subsidized the match quality rifles that we used also.

So there's a national interest in training up folks on automatic rifles.

 

[BULLDOG]

I'm OK with permits on full automatics. But, the number of permit holders shouldn't have arbitrary restrictions on them. I think the DOD would appreciate having young folks TRAINED to use them.

My dad ran a "Junior Rifle League". We literally got free ammo from DOD direct. It was the "civilian markmanship program". They subsidized the match quality rifles that we used also.

So there's a national interest in training up folks on automatic rifles.

So there is nothing inherantly unconstitutional about requiring permits for guns.

 

[Batcat]

.

I got a Lifetime Ban from a local nightclub when some Airmen decided they needed to mess with me (Army) and few Marines.
Those Airmen could have used some of Ed's training ... They should have never started that mess ...


.​

When I was in the Air Force we were never taught anything about hand to hand combat. We did qualify on a rifle range with the targets at 100 yards. We also ran a lot.

I got the message that most airmen were not expected to fight unless there was no other choice and the base was about to be overran. We were being trained to run for shelter and let the Air Police or the Army units on the base handle the problem.

 

[flacaltenn]

So there is nothing inherantly unconstitutional about requiring permits for guns.

There is. It's problematic. In the 18th century I could get paid by the US Govt for privateering my battleship. It's called Letters of Marques and Reprisal in the Constitution. Mind you -- I didn't need paperwork to own the 8 cannon battleship -- I needed permission and payment to go fight pirates or foreign vessels.

Permits for generally owning or using a gun are unconstitutional.

A permit for a weapon of war is different. YOU SHOULD be able to get permits for any legitimate training of citizens on AUTOMATIC weapons. Every licensed firearms instructor, security company, and other licensed firearm persons/businesses should qualify to obtain and use automatic weapons. If that requires a no cost, one time, no tricks, piece of paper you wanna call a "permit" -- so be it. I'd rather call it an "automatic weapon transfer" form.

 

[Sunsettommy]

So there is nothing inherantly unconstitutional about requiring permits for guns.

What are gun permits good for?

They will have their gun anyway since the second amendment says they can have their gun in possession without needing a permit.

 

[BULLDOG]

There is. It's problematic. In the 18th century I could get paid by the US Govt for privateering my battleship. It's called Letters of Marques and Reprisal in the Constitution. Mind you -- I didn't need paperwork to own the 8 cannon battleship -- I needed permission and payment to go fight pirates or foreign vessels.

Permits for generally owning or using a gun are unconstitutional.

A permit for a weapon of war is different. YOU SHOULD be able to get permits for any legitimate training of citizens on AUTOMATIC weapons. Every licensed firearms instructor, security company, and other licensed firearm persons/businesses should qualify to obtain and use automatic weapons. If that requires a no cost, one time, no tricks, piece of paper you wanna call a "permit" -- so be it. I'd rather call it an "automatic weapon transfer" form.

How do you define a weapon of war?

 

[Wyatt earp]

So there is nothing inherantly unconstitutional about requiring permits for guns.

Someone would have to challenge it if it became law.

For example Illinois firearm registration card has been around for over 40 years that I know of and no one challenged it till recently .

In May, a White County judge ruled the state's FOID card system was unconstitutional and reduced residents' Second Amendment rights to bear arms to a “facade.” Illinois Attorney General Kwame Raoul appealed the decision to the Illinois Supreme Court.Nov 8, 2021
Home › article
Haine says FOID Act is unconstitutional - Alton Telegraph