CDZ Two options...the European model of self defense, and the American model of Self defensse.

[sealybobo]

Criminals break the law, and they will attack people....they stop attacking the individuals who point guns at them....

So if you want to be robbed, raped, beaten, stabbed or murdered.....and not have a gun to stop it...go for it....

You just don't have a Right to make that decision for the other 330 million Americans....

Meanwhile....according to the Centers for Disease Control, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies, beatings, stabbings and murders.....

Just recently, the 2021 Firearms survey put that number at 1.67 million times a year....

I notice you didn't answer any of my questions.....afraid?

How do you explain the fact that as more Americans owned and carried guns, our gun murder rate went down 49% and our gun crime rate went down 75%......?

Care to explain?

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bu

Two more questions....

1) A woman is about to be dragged from a train platform, a bus station, or a rapist is in her home/apartment......should she have the right to own and carry a gun to stop that rape?

2) A woman stops a rape with a gun, in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?

If I don’t answer it’s because I get your point and agree. Let someone else who disagrees reply why if they think you’re wrong

 

[Plow Boy]

How come your way didn’t work in the old west? Where everyone had a gun.

The Wild West? That was mild compared to modern Detroit and Chicago.
And how do you know that my way didn’t work in the Wild West? Today if you shoot someone, they stop. And it must have been the same way then.

I don’t get the analogy, since if you shoot someone today with a cowboy action Colt .45, they will stop. Are you saying that there were too many guns then? And it was futility in action, with one guy shooting the other?

No you are saying that the violence didn’t stop, and that’s because there were guns. But the violence didn’t stop because there were ruthless men in the Old West. Just like there are legions of the today, in major cities. The violence will never stop, so the shooting will never stop.

I can tell you this, I am 65 years old, and I am no match for thugs anymore.
But, I have a Smith & Wesson .40 within easy reach, and the thugs are no match for it.

I have a gun now for the same reason that I carried an M-16 in the Army.
Because its the best way to stop an enemy.

 

[sealybobo]

The Wild West? That was mild compared to modern Detroit and Chicago.
And how do you know that it didn’t work in the Wild West? Today if you shoot someone, they stop. And it must have been the same way then.

I don’t get the analogy, since if you shoot someone today with a cowboy action Colt .45, they will stop. Are you saying that there were too many guns then? And it was futility in action, with one guy shooting the other?

I can tell you this, I am 65 years old, and I am no match for thugs anymore.
But, I have a Smith & Wesson .40 within easy reach, and the thugs are no match for it.

It just seemed like toombstone had cowboys who shot up the place. I guess you are right. The solution would be to arm the citizens and when they started shooting, start shooting back

 

[Plow Boy]

So everyone shot in Vegas would have survived if they had a gun?

The solution is kevlar battle gear.

Let me bring it on down to me, I have survived because I had a gun.
And I know of a convenience store clerk who died because he didn’t have one.

Kevlar? That is a passive defense. All they have to do is walk right up on you and shoot you in the face.

 

[Plow Boy]

It just seemed like toombstone had cowboys who shot up the place. I guess you are right. The solution would be to arm the citizens and when they started shooting, start shooting back

They should have the choice of shooting back, or to flee and run for their lives. A gun gives them that option, and there is nothing else that does that.

 

[GLASNOST]

We did not have 288 school shootings......if this wasn't the CDZ I would respond properly to your lack of facts.

You can continue whistling in the dark. I am going to ignore the umteen posts you made in response and take up only this one above because I'm not going to waste more of my time than is necessary:

The US has had 57 times as many school shootings as the other major industrialized nations combined | CNN

There have been at least 288 school shootings in the US since January 1, 2009. That's 57 times as many shootings as the other six G7 countries combined.

edition.cnn.com

 

[GLASNOST]

So everyone shot in Vegas would have survived if they had a gun?

I am astonished that you didn't know that already.

 

[GLASNOST]

...... I have survived because I had a gun.
And I know of a convenience store clerk who died because he didn’t have one.

Wow, that's all we need to know. But I know a thousand people who didn't get shot or die because no one had a gun. Go figure, huh?

 

[Blues Man]

Wow, that's all we need to know. But I know a thousand people who didn't get shot or die because no one had a gun. Go figure, huh?

The problem there is someone will always have a gun and it will most likely be the asshole who wants to hurt you.

 

[Plow Boy]

Wow, that's all we need to know. But I know a thousand people who didn't get shot or die because no one had a gun. Go figure, huh?

Here is some more info, when I lived in Huntington WV, I was tailed by a gang who was after my gun, and they didn’t get.

That same gang killed a local convenience store clerk, by shooting him with a .357 Magnum. The first shot knocked him down, then the gang member who shot him, handed the gun to a minor.

That minor shot the clerk in the head and killed.

Your reply seems to come from a heart that is cowardly. And it is a heart that will never do one brave thing in life.

People like you are just one more reason that I have a .45 handy.
You aid the murderer.

 

[GLASNOST]

...... I was tailed by a gang who was after my gun, and they didn’t get.

So ... they were after your gun. A gun that if you didn't have they never would have been "after you".

Your reply seems to come from a heart that is cowardly. And it is a heart that will never do one brave thing in life..

Hmmm. I am a war veteran, sonny. I have had more guns pointed at me and more bullets whiz past my head than you have had dreams about.

And BTW, not owning a gun doesn't make me a coward. It's the guys who hide behind one and threaten with a gun who are the cowards. I believe you should give that some thought.

 

[GLASNOST]

People like you are just one more reason that I have a .45 handy.
You aid the murderer.

That's an adolescent point of view.

 

[2aguy]

You can continue whistling in the dark. I am going to ignore the umteen posts you made in response and take up only this one above because I'm not going to waste more of my time than is necessary:

The US has had 57 times as many school shootings as the other major industrialized nations combined | CNN

There have been at least 288 school shootings in the US since January 1, 2009. That's 57 times as many shootings as the other six G7 countries combined.

edition.cnn.com

View attachment 543760

Over 81 years of violent crime in the U.S.......total killed by criminals with guns?

810,000

....the majority of those killed (70-80%) were criminals...and of the rest, the majority are friends, family and associates of criminals caught in the crossfire of criminals shooting at each other...

Europe....innocent men, women and children murdered by their governments and the German socialists in a 6 year period...

12,000,000

Not criminals....simply innocent men, women and children murdered by the government...

They keep saying "Never Forget..." well, you forgot..I haven't.


How do you explain the fact that as more Americans owned and carried guns, our gun murder rate went down 49% and our gun crime rate went down 75%......?

Care to explain?

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

600 million guns in private hands......over 19.4 million Americans can carry guns legally in public for self defense.........



American use those legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, stabbings, beatings, robberies, and murders, as well as also stopping mass public shootings when they are allowed to have their legal guns with them...

Lives saved....based on research? By law abiding gun owners using guns to stop criminals?



Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct





that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—



Money saved from people not being beaten, raped, murdered, robbed?.......





So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.

Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.

When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”

Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”

So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.


Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns

 

[2aguy]

So ... they were after your gun. A gun that if you didn't have they never would have been "after you".


Hmmm. I am a war veteran, sonny. I have had more guns pointed at me and more bullets whiz past my head than you have had dreams about.

And BTW, not owning a gun doesn't make me a coward. It's the guys who hide behind one and threaten with a gun who are the cowards. I believe you should give that some thought.

Wow....thanks for being the brave one........you are awesome..........

Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery, stabbings, beatings, and murder........according to the Centers for Disease Control...

They would disagree with you......

 

[GLASNOST]

Over 81 years of violent crime in the U.S.......

You're still whistling in the dark. Did you look at the link I provided or didn't you?

Wow....thanks for being the brave one........

Bravery's got nothing to do with it. It is my experience - that is much greater than yours - that is important. I know what I am talking about, you do not.

 

[2aguy]

You're still whistling in the dark. Did you look at the link I provided or didn't you?


Bravery's got nothing to do with it. It is my experience - that is much greater than yours - that is important. I know what I am talking about, you do not.

I don't need to look at your link.....anti-gun silliness is anti-gun silliness...

You don't know what you are talking about when it comes to freedom and Rights....

A lot of individuals have war experience.....and have been shot at, if you are telling the truth......nazis, taliban, drug cartel members...that experience doesn't give them any real insight into freedom or Rights.........as you are also showing.

 

[Donald H]

Which model do you prefer?

America has chosen death by gun and there's no prospects for changing that in sight.

The 'big' gunfight between the political sides could come in the foreseeable future and the spilt blood could cause all Americans to step back and see the situation in another light.

 

[2aguy]

America has chosen death by gun and there's no prospects for changing that in sight.

The 'big' gunfight between the political sides could come in the foreseeable future and the spilt blood could cause all Americans to step back and see the situation in another light.

How do you say that when Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to save lives?

With numbers like that, it makes your statement look really silly........

1.2 million times normal Americans use their guns to stop violent rapes, robberies, stabbings, beatings, murders..........do you understand what that means?

Obviously, you don't.

 

[M14 Shooter]

That first part was meant for someone else. I tried to delete it.
Well I'm glad we are trying to make bump stocks illegal. You?

So you agree:
-Most mass shootings are perpetrated with, and most who die in mass shootings are killed with, handguns
-No assault rifle has ever been used in a mass shooting in the US.
Good to know.

 

[GLASNOST]

I don't need to look at your link.....anti-gun silliness is anti-gun silliness...

You don't know what you are talking about when it comes to freedom and Rights....

A lot of individuals have war experience.....and have been shot at, if you are telling the truth......nazis, taliban, drug cartel members...that experience doesn't give them any real insight into freedom or Rights.........as you are also showing.

* I posted the chart showing that 288 school shootings took place in the U.S.
* You said it was not true and that I had no evidence.
* So I linked the evidence.
* You now say you "don't need to look at the evidence"

* You said that I am a coward.
* I told you that I am a war veteran and that I have experience.
* Now you say "lots of people have war experience" and you think it's connected to "freedom or Rights" ..... bla, bla-bla, bla-bla.

You are just wasting time.