TV host asks atheist Stephen Fry question about God, you have to watch what happens next

[guno]

[

For myself, I cannot deny the God of Bible's divine manifestations and tell Him you neither exist nor matter. On the other hand, all Greek, Egyptian and Indian gods are silent as stones, there is no race or competition to consider here. Nor has "Allah" or his "prophet" Muhammad ever shown any true sign of divine providence.

Your god didn't either. There is no divine manifestation that any other delusional religion could not claim for their god or gods.

Sorry, but you are mistaken. The signs and wonders provided by the Judeo-Christian G-d are legion. Far surpassing any scant sign of supernatural manifestation from Hinduism or Islam or the occult. Far more compelling and enormous in scope. Far more loving and merciful and articulate in the message.

But God does give us all free will to believe what we want to believe and to choose what we want to choose. But so few of us are ignorant of the many revelations and witnesses to the truths, and yet still claim to be.

sorry Judaism an Christianity have polar opposite outlooks,

There’s No Such Thing as Judeo-Christian Values
The label “Judeo-Christian” tends to assume, at the expense of Judaism, that Christians and Jews believe essentially the same things.

The Jewish Press There 8217 s No Such Thing as Judeo-Christian Values

Mostly Judeo-Christian is a term used by Protestant Christians to enlist Jewish support for a philosophically or religiously questionable enterprise in public policy.

There is no such thing as Judeo-Christian anything

 

[turzovka]

[

For myself, I cannot deny the God of Bible's divine manifestations and tell Him you neither exist nor matter. On the other hand, all Greek, Egyptian and Indian gods are silent as stones, there is no race or competition to consider here. Nor has "Allah" or his "prophet" Muhammad ever shown any true sign of divine providence.

Your god didn't either. There is no divine manifestation that any other delusional religion could not claim for their god or gods.

Sorry, but you are mistaken. The signs and wonders provided by the Judeo-Christian G-d are legion. Far surpassing any scant sign of supernatural manifestation from Hinduism or Islam or the occult. Far more compelling and enormous in scope. Far more loving and merciful and articulate in the message.

But God does give us all free will to believe what we want to believe and to choose what we want to choose. But so few of us are ignorant of the many revelations and witnesses to the truths, and yet still claim to be.

sorry Judaism an Christianity have polar opposite outlooks,

There’s No Such Thing as Judeo-Christian Values
The label “Judeo-Christian” tends to assume, at the expense of Judaism, that Christians and Jews believe essentially the same things.

The Jewish Press There 8217 s No Such Thing as Judeo-Christian Values

Mostly Judeo-Christian is a term used by Protestant Christians to enlist Jewish support for a philosophically or religiously questionable enterprise in public policy.

There is no such thing as Judeo-Christian anything

You are trying too hard to try to put out every fire.

No one is suggesting that the Jewish faith and the Christian faiths agree on all core doctrine. Ok?

But they do share many moral values and also are very willing to suffer greatly for a higher good and defend the defenseless from evil aggressors. And the nation of Israel is a blessing to this lost or evil world. So is the united states and western Europe. I really do not care how many sins you want to list of ours, you have already shown that you totally missed the point.

 

[Newby]

I think he meant why should we bow down and worship a God for his many blessings, when there aren't any blessings.

Fry seems to think that the only purpose God should serve is to prevent human suffering. From here it is easy to follow Fry's line of thinking. There is human suffering, therefore there is no God. As I said earlier, this is neither clear nor great thinking.

I'd like to know why what he says should have any significance to anyone? Who is he? A comedian? Why is his opinion any more relevant than anyone else's that it should merit discussion?

 

[Mindful]

I think he meant why should we bow down and worship a God for his many blessings, when there aren't any blessings.

Fry seems to think that the only purpose God should serve is to prevent human suffering. From here it is easy to follow Fry's line of thinking. There is human suffering, therefore there is no God. As I said earlier, this is neither clear nor great thinking.

I'd like to know why what he says should have any significance to anyone? Who is he? A comedian? Why is his opinion any more relevant than anyone else's that it should merit discussion?

It isn't.

 

[Newby]

I think he meant why should we bow down and worship a God for his many blessings, when there aren't any blessings.

Fry seems to think that the only purpose God should serve is to prevent human suffering. From here it is easy to follow Fry's line of thinking. There is human suffering, therefore there is no God. As I said earlier, this is neither clear nor great thinking.

I'd like to know why what he says should have any significance to anyone? Who is he? A comedian? Why is his opinion any more relevant than anyone else's that it should merit discussion?

It isn't.

Thank you, that's what I thought.

 

[Hollie]

I think he meant why should we bow down and worship a God for his many blessings, when there aren't any blessings.

Fry seems to think that the only purpose God should serve is to prevent human suffering. From here it is easy to follow Fry's line of thinking. There is human suffering, therefore there is no God. As I said earlier, this is neither clear nor great thinking.

I'd like to know why what he says should have any significance to anyone? Who is he? A comedian? Why is his opinion any more relevant than anyone else's that it should merit discussion?

I actually feel that way about your gawds vs. OPG's (Other People's Gawds).

 

[Newby]

I think he meant why should we bow down and worship a God for his many blessings, when there aren't any blessings.

Fry seems to think that the only purpose God should serve is to prevent human suffering. From here it is easy to follow Fry's line of thinking. There is human suffering, therefore there is no God. As I said earlier, this is neither clear nor great thinking.

I'd like to know why what he says should have any significance to anyone? Who is he? A comedian? Why is his opinion any more relevant than anyone else's that it should merit discussion?

I actually feel that way about your gawds vs. OPG's (Other People's Gawds).

Then why are you always 'discussing' it, and I use that term loosely. lol

 

[RandomVariable]

I do not know why but for some reason God has decided to give me 'seeing is believe' evidence that he is real. Understand though has come from the Bible, KJV OT. Let's say I knew nothing of who God is. If he just showed up in a whirlwind before me I would gather all these ideas about God and a completely inaccurate picture of God would get implanted in my mind. So for me anyway, God had let me know he existed before but about a year ago he told me to start reading the KVJ of the OT. A little specific I know. From where I was then of knowing there was a God to my understanding of him now is a million miles, I might have a million more to go. So I guess what I am doing is apologizing because the truth of the matter is I have absolutely no idea how to convince you there is a God. I would have not believed anyone but God either.

God talked to Osama bin ladin too

Where is that stated?

God told Joseph smith the traditional christian churches were all corrupt and to start the Mormon church too. George Washington and George bush too. Now were to believe you too?

Joseph Smith claimed visions. Visions are in a completely different category than what I am talking about. George & George made no extraordinary claims that I am aware of.

Are you to believe me? You can if you like. All I know is what I state. Anything you might know that might help me find what I am looking for would be appreciated. If I can I will help you with anything that you are looking for.

This astronomer said if you look out at the universe and see everything going on and understand all the different galaxies and the billions of years and other suns and planets that are out there its impossible to think that we on this planet are anything special.

Maybe before we had telescopes but theists still think the earth is a stationary planet and the universe revolves around them.

The absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

If I told you my car flew would you want to test drive it or would you buy it because I have witnesses? So you would need proof?

Because we have completely different stories about god in Iran Iraq India Europe Israel native Americans ancient Greeks Babylonian Egypt it is a cultural phenomenon.

Why would we have mental retardation polio small pox birth defects and cancer in kids?

The past, the future, children with cancer, all this I do not know. You ask for proof. I admit I have no proof. I can only say what I know and you will have to judge me as to how much weight you give that. And what do I know? I was knee deep into politics last spring, getting ready for a tooth and nail fight with the republicans for control of the Congress. Then out of the blue God told me to read the OT. I questioned it all right. If anything was going to get me to give up midterm election politics it was going to have to be absolutely convincing and repeated, and then repeat it some more. God did so I did. And what I thought would somehow conclude and I could return everyone else's world has not happened. Not only has that has not happened, tIt has gotten deeper. I learned all about end of times and apocalypse and Daniel's timeline and the NWO. I also learned how many people take this stuff seriously. As I do now. Sometime in the summer I learned about the four blood moon, coincidently enough this whole thing kicked off in the first blood moon time frame. The second blood moon was something even more significant. What everyone else who was looking for during the second blood moon I saw/witnessed. Some people on this board say that those who believe in God do not question. God forgive me but I question this just about all the time. I dismiss dreams, feelings, visions (if I were to have any). If I do not see physical proof of God at least once every three days I would probably give this up. (I won't but I am just saying.) So do I have any proof? Do I have a following of people who give give me their last dime, or a following who let me screw their wives and daughters, or do I walk around Jerusalem barefooted? No. I am just telling you what I know because it is what I know and I hope it will do you some good. If a few days go by and I do not hear from God maybe my conviction will fade and I will go bash the republican budget on the politics forum, which I would so love to do, but I believe there is something more. God bless. (Oh, and my religious background: I was raised strict atheist, was agnostic when God told me to believe in God, and religious when God told me to read the OT.)

 

[Meriweather]

If I told you my car flew would you want to test drive it or would you buy it because I have witnesses? So you would need proof?

I would do research. Can cars fly? What are the rules regarding flying cars? Do I have the skills to fly one? Would one be applicable to my life?

Similarly, we have Christ's teachings. Do they work? Do they apply to my life? Do I have enough faith and wherewithal to test them?

My life is a testimony to the validity of his teachings. The reality is my life is unique. It cannot be retested and studied under a microscope, where all variables but one are held constant. There are millions of other people who will tell similar stories, but these millions (and one) stories, according to scientific methodology, are anecdotes. The scientific method cannot prove love, beauty, or any other subjective emotion or judgment.

While real life cannot be lived under laboratory conditions, Christ's teachings are tested by millions every day. While these teachings do not produce rocks or other physical objects that some scientists seem to worship, the results are no less real.

People of faith are no less desirous of proof than you are. Our proof is living results--not a solid, physical object.

 

[Olde Europe]

Fry seems to think that the only purpose God should serve is to prevent human suffering. From here it is easy to follow Fry's line of thinking. There is human suffering, therefore there is no God. As I said earlier, this is neither clear nor great thinking.

I would think that in order justifiably to judge Fry's thinking, the first required step would be to understand his thinking as best we can. Here it is, again:

'Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God that creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain?'

"Purpose", as far as I can see, doesn't appear there, much less the suggestion as to what should be that being's "only purpose". Rather, Fry applies a quite common, and usually very clear, line of thought to that supreme being (SB), thought to have created this universe: A being that created so much injustice and pain doesn't deserve respect, in much the same way as a human who purposely creates injustice and pain for others doesn't deserve respect. That SB's "purposes" might be manifold, but if we think of this SB as omni-benevolent and omnipotent, no evil can flow from this SB's actions.

"It's just one Mr. Fry, so why should we bother?" is just a cop-out and a deflection from the question, as is the debate about the (de-) merits of certain faiths, as neither does so much as to attempt to reconcile the thought of an omni-benevolent and omnipotent creator, deserving of our respect, and the existence of evil.

If you think (I am not clear on that) that this SB is not, and should not be, concerned with human suffering, this would create a way out of the logical quandary. That requires, however, to drop "omni-benevolent" from that SB's attributes.

 

[Hollie]

If I told you my car flew would you want to test drive it or would you buy it because I have witnesses? So you would need proof?

I would do research. Can cars fly? What are the rules regarding flying cars? Do I have the skills to fly one? Would one be applicable to my life?

Similarly, we have Christ's teachings. Do they work? Do they apply to my life? Do I have enough faith and wherewithal to test them?

My life is a testimony to the validity of his teachings. The reality is my life is unique. It cannot be retested and studied under a microscope, where all variables but one are held constant. There are millions of other people who will tell similar stories, but these millions (and one) stories, according to scientific methodology, are anecdotes. The scientific method cannot prove love, beauty, or any other subjective emotion or judgment.

While real life cannot be lived under laboratory conditions, Christ's teachings are tested by millions every day. While these teachings do not produce rocks or other physical objects that some scientists seem to worship, the results are no less real.

People of faith are no less desirous of proof than you are. Our proof is living results--not a solid, physical object.

There's nothing that separates your claims to gawds from those of others, past and present, with similar claims to gawds. Many ancient peoples had beliefs in gods, spirits and all sorts of superstitions which were used to explain phenomena they didn’t understand. The Abrahamic god of the desert is more recent but no less a vehicle for superstition. Share the knowledge why your god is extant to the exclusion of other, more ancient gawds. When you can share that knowledge in a way that would verify your claim that you in some way attain supremacy over the Dayaks, then you'd have some cleats in the turf. But it's all gainsay. The only thing we have ("we" meaning those who don't embrace your particular theology) is your assertion that your spiritual knowledge is somehow better. Theists like to drop it in peoples laps that there are "different tools" to show these different assertions, but hey-- why don't you show me the tool that places your beliefs in supremacy to all others?

It is not the skeptic who rejects the validity of the passages, we only use them to assess whether the theist's claims of their validity is accurate. In terms of piecing the puzzle together, the faith of others has given them different pieces of the puzzle. Therein lies the problem of this whole issue. The faith of the al-Qaida throat cutter, the faith of the suicide bomber, the head chopper-offer... etc. etc... Why did they do that? Because they had discovered the "truth" in their quest for understanding... their faith told them so?

Lastly, I don't know of any paleontologist who worships a rock or any scientists who worships their material of study. However, I do know of religionists who worship all manner of idols, icons, books, images, plastic statues affixed to car dashboards, etc. I don't know of any biologist studying a culture bacteria in petri dishes all the while thinking they are somehow gawds over their various bacterium. If anything, they are completely disinterested in the bacterium except as how it pertains to whatever experiment they are pursuing. In that sense, maybe your particular gawds have completed whatever experiment they were pursuing with us lowly humans, and having completed that experiment, we are now relegated to some dusty back shelf, allowed to simply mold.

 

[Meriweather]

If you think (I am not clear on that) that this SB is not, and should not be, concerned with human suffering, this would create a way out of the logical quandary. That requires, however, to drop "omni-benevolent" from that SB's attributes.

Even if I shall walk in the valleys of the shadows of death, I will not be afraid of evil, because you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. (Psalm 23)

Matthew 10 includes the remark not even a sparrow falls without it being outside God's care.

I believe that no matter what the physical world throws at us simply by its nature of being physical, God is with all His creation and helps us through any dark valley we must traverse.

 

[Meriweather]

It is not the skeptic who rejects the validity of the passages, we only use them to assess whether the theist's claims of their validity is accurate. In terms of piecing the puzzle together, the faith of others has given them different pieces of the puzzle. Therein lies the problem of this whole issue. The faith of the al-Qaida throat cutter, the faith of the suicide bomber, the head chopper-offer... etc. etc... Why did they do that? Because they had discovered the "truth" in their quest for understanding... their faith told them so?

I cannot speak to the faith of Muslims, because I do not have a clear understanding of all facets of it. The Christian faith does not call for a person to sin/break a commandment. There is a huge difference between a faith that advises "cut their throat" as opposed to "shake the dust from your feet."

Suicide bombing and the like seems a political group's past-time, not the past-time of individuals seeking to avoid sin and to love God and neighbor.

 

[RandomVariable]

If you think (I am not clear on that) that this SB is not, and should not be, concerned with human suffering, this would create a way out of the logical quandary. That requires, however, to drop "omni-benevolent" from that SB's attributes.

Even if I shall walk in the valleys of the shadows of death, I will not be afraid of evil, because you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. (Psalm 23)

Matthew 10 includes the remark not even a sparrow falls without it being outside God's care.

I believe that no matter what the physical world throws at us simply by its nature of being physical, God is with all His creation and helps us through any dark valley we must traverse.

Just to chime in here. When God says to fear him it is actually quite liberating. I can stand in a forest lit by nothing more than a very faint glow of what used to be a sunset and the stars and know that if anything happens to me it is God's will. I have no other fear.

(On a side note I get to reset my 'when was the last time I got a message from God' clock, actually angel is more likely. Friday I started to read a book other than Job and got a firm reminder that I am to keep reading Job until told otherwise. This morning I was thinking through starting a thread on Christianity and wealth. I was working on the size of banks and churches and wandered to the topic of King Solomon’s temple. I was told King Solomon was off limits. The thread I might still start but without King Solomon of course. So the clock is reset. Four days without any word and after that big post I just made I was getting kind of nervous that I had overstepped my bounds. I do not know if this is something anyone can hear if they listen correctly or if it is just me. The first would actually make me much happier.)

 

[Olde Europe]

Even if I shall walk in the valleys of the shadows of death, I will not be afraid of evil, because you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. (Psalm 23)

Matthew 10 includes the remark not even a sparrow falls without it being outside God's care.

I believe that no matter what the physical world throws at us simply by its nature of being physical, God is with all His creation and helps us through any dark valley we must traverse.

I see, you would maintain the omni-benevolent attribute of the SB. Fine. Then it would be incumbent upon you to try to explain evil and suffering in this world as caused by this SB. The Psalm doesn't explain it, as even though true believers are supposed not to be afraid of evil, they still suffer from it, no matter whether it's merely because of this SB-created physical world, or because of these SB-created humans' brutality and recklessness.

 

[Tuatara]

I think he meant why should we bow down and worship a God for his many blessings, when there aren't any blessings.

Fry seems to think that the only purpose God should serve is to prevent human suffering. From here it is easy to follow Fry's line of thinking. There is human suffering, therefore there is no God. As I said earlier, this is neither clear nor great thinking.

I'd like to know why what he says should have any significance to anyone? Who is he? A comedian? Why is his opinion any more relevant than anyone else's that it should merit discussion?

He is an actor but you shouldn't concentrate on who said it but what was said. His opinion is relevant because he is famous and what he said makes perfect sense.

 

[Tuatara]

I think he meant why should we bow down and worship a God for his many blessings, when there aren't any blessings.

Fry seems to think that the only purpose God should serve is to prevent human suffering. From here it is easy to follow Fry's line of thinking. There is human suffering, therefore there is no God. As I said earlier, this is neither clear nor great thinking.

When someone is dying or suffering every christian I know seems to "pray" for them as if "god" can change the outcome. Also apparently god created everything, thus he created cancer and parasites that burrow through eye sockets. Frye is simply adopting the christian's way of thinking. The christians way of describing god.


You can't have it both ways. On one hand christins believe god's hand is at work in the daily lives of humans but when us atheists pointout the inconsistencies and attrocities created by your god, you back off and claim god is no longer involved.

 

[sealybobo]

If I told you my car flew would you want to test drive it or would you buy it because I have witnesses? So you would need proof?

I would do research. Can cars fly? What are the rules regarding flying cars? Do I have the skills to fly one? Would one be applicable to my life?

Similarly, we have Christ's teachings. Do they work? Do they apply to my life? Do I have enough faith and wherewithal to test them?

My life is a testimony to the validity of his teachings. The reality is my life is unique. It cannot be retested and studied under a microscope, where all variables but one are held constant. There are millions of other people who will tell similar stories, but these millions (and one) stories, according to scientific methodology, are anecdotes. The scientific method cannot prove love, beauty, or any other subjective emotion or judgment.

While real life cannot be lived under laboratory conditions, Christ's teachings are tested by millions every day. While these teachings do not produce rocks or other physical objects that some scientists seem to worship, the results are no less real.

People of faith are no less desirous of proof than you are. Our proof is living results--not a solid, physical object.

There's nothing that separates your claims to gawds from those of others, past and present, with similar claims to gawds. Many ancient peoples had beliefs in gods, spirits and all sorts of superstitions which were used to explain phenomena they didn’t understand. The Abrahamic god of the desert is more recent but no less a vehicle for superstition. Share the knowledge why your god is extant to the exclusion of other, more ancient gawds. When you can share that knowledge in a way that would verify your claim that you in some way attain supremacy over the Dayaks, then you'd have some cleats in the turf. But it's all gainsay. The only thing we have ("we" meaning those who don't embrace your particular theology) is your assertion that your spiritual knowledge is somehow better. Theists like to drop it in peoples laps that there are "different tools" to show these different assertions, but hey-- why don't you show me the tool that places your beliefs in supremacy to all others?

It is not the skeptic who rejects the validity of the passages, we only use them to assess whether the theist's claims of their validity is accurate. In terms of piecing the puzzle together, the faith of others has given them different pieces of the puzzle. Therein lies the problem of this whole issue. The faith of the al-Qaida throat cutter, the faith of the suicide bomber, the head chopper-offer... etc. etc... Why did they do that? Because they had discovered the "truth" in their quest for understanding... their faith told them so?

Lastly, I don't know of any paleontologist who worships a rock or any scientists who worships their material of study. However, I do know of religionists who worship all manner of idols, icons, books, images, plastic statues affixed to car dashboards, etc. I don't know of any biologist studying a culture bacteria in petri dishes all the while thinking they are somehow gawds over their various bacterium. If anything, they are completely disinterested in the bacterium except as how it pertains to whatever experiment they are pursuing. In that sense, maybe your particular gawds have completed whatever experiment they were pursuing with us lowly humans, and having completed that experiment, we are now relegated to some dusty back shelf, allowed to simply mold.

I love your mind and your ability to explain what I'm trying to get across.

 

[Meriweather]

I see, you would maintain the omni-benevolent attribute of the SB. Fine. Then it would be incumbent upon you to try to explain evil and suffering in this world as caused by this SB. The Psalm doesn't explain it, as even though true believers are supposed not to be afraid of evil, they still suffer from it, no matter whether it's merely because of this SB-created physical world, or because of these SB-created humans' brutality and recklessness.

I have a different take on the 'omni's' as they relate to God. Most seem to think it means "All", whereas I tend to go with the "Most" as the more precise translation.

I have never expected creation to be "God-like" and therefore I do not expect this world to be free of evil and suffering. I am not sure where people get the idea that God owes us beauty, brains, power, wealth, and a soft, comfortable life.

Nor do I blame humanity's poor choices on God. There is a popular classroom sign that sports, "No Whining." The perfect sign for just about anywhere.

 

[Meriweather]

When someone is dying or suffering every christian I know seems to "pray" for them as if "god" can change the outcome. Also apparently god created everything, thus he created cancer and parasites that burrow through eye sockets. Frye is simply adopting the christian's way of thinking. The christians way of describing god.

You can't have it both ways. On one hand christins believe god's hand is at work in the daily lives of humans but when us atheists pointout the inconsistencies and attrocities created by your god, you back off and claim god is no longer involved.

First, God is not our own personal Genie in a bottle. I have found prayer to work best when I lay out the troubles I am facing and ask for help in dealing with the day and/or what comes next.

Sometimes spiritual healing can affect physical healing, but not always and perhaps not even often.

I am wondering where people got the idea they are owed or are entitled.