TV host asks atheist Stephen Fry question about God, you have to watch what happens next

[sealybobo]

Then god needs to reveal himself to me. Otherwise I'll be forced to believe you're all either lying or delusional

 

[sealybobo]

I don't mean to be such a jerk here, all of you ask good questions. But why is it so hard to prove something that should be so basic? God's existence should be rock solid and unarguable by any rational human being. But God just isn't there, not any more than Santa Claus. The spiritual thing I understand. The supernatural is a like fantasy movie or video game character. They might be inspirational, but they just aren't tangible. God is not REAL. When she or he or they DO show up, I will be the first to apologize.

Bear with me, because I am told I often come at things from strange angles. What if somehow humans intrinsically know there is an unseen God. Because of this, we now have it within ourselves to make up other unseen people (Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy.) Since all of these unseen people are clearly made up, then does it necessarily follow that all unseen beings are unreal? Where did we get the idea of an unseen being? Even the animals we make up are made up of parts of other animals.

There are two problems to overcome while seeking God. The first is that we are told we can't put God to the test. We want to test to see if God is there, and therefore instantly set ourselves up to fail. We can't find God through testing. The second mistake is that we have an idea of God, and we go in search of that idea, not of God.

The Book of Kings tells the story of a prophet who wanted God to reveal Himself. He looked for God in things of might and power--and he didn't find God's revelation of Himself in those events. Instead, God revealed Himself in a tiny, whispering sound. When I first heard this account, it dawned on me--if we are made in the image and likeness of God--and God is found in a tiny whisper--then God just might be more shy than I am. No wonder He is so hard to find.

If you watch the old and new Cosmos series' they explain when and why we invented gods. Imagine our primitive ancestors see lightening and they don't have dopler radar to explain what weather really is. We also are curious creatures and we hate not knowing. So anything we didn't know must have been gods.

We had gods for the harvest for love for the sea etc.

Us atheists fully understand all the motivations for wanting to believe in god. But then less than 10000 years ago people started telling detailed stories about when god visited them. The rest is history

 

[sealybobo]

Welcome to atheism 101. Basic stuff. If I meet God when I pass away, I would be dumbfounded. Thunderstruck...I would ask god, : So You are REAL, after all? Where were you all this time? Why did you create evil and the illusion of free will when YOU knew what was going to happen all along...? But, that isn't gonna happen kids. Death is the end, and there isn't any fiery hell or pearly gates. The afterlife is for kids. No reincarnation. Most of us know the bitter truth.

Some of us do know the truth and can testify that it is far from bitter. I also suspect instead of asking God "Where were you?" you may be asking, "How could I have been so blind!?"

Please don't picture me as being reproachful of you, but rather of smiling good-naturedly.

And please too don't think we are evil or angry when we say we don't believe your god exists. If you are a christian do you believe god spoke to Joseph smith or Mohammed? Then you should understand why we question the stories from your ancients. Science says question everything especially the stories of the ancients. So as a human living in the enlightenment I have to question if a guy name Jesus really fed 5000 with 5 loaves and 3 fish.

It all sounds wonderful but a person can only believe that if they want to despite everything logic tells them.

I can see how people were still buying it 100 years ago but not 100 years from now. You're superstitious and gullible.

 

[RandomVariable]

Are you asking for everlasting life?

No , I just want proof God exists, hunches excluded... real palpable hold in your hands tally up the numbers seeing is believing facts. It's one thing to question atheists, it's another to put GOD on a silver platter for all of us to see.

I do not know why but for some reason God has decided to give me 'seeing is believe' evidence that he is real. Understand though has come from the Bible, KJV OT. Let's say I knew nothing of who God is. If he just showed up in a whirlwind before me I would gather all these ideas about God and a completely inaccurate picture of God would get implanted in my mind. So for me anyway, God had let me know he existed before but about a year ago he told me to start reading the KVJ of the OT. A little specific I know. From where I was then of knowing there was a God to my understanding of him now is a million miles, I might have a million more to go. So I guess what I am doing is apologizing because the truth of the matter is I have absolutely no idea how to convince you there is a God. I would have not believed anyone but God either.

God talked to Osama bin ladin too

Where is that stated?

God told Joseph smith the traditional christian churches were all corrupt and to start the Mormon church too. George Washington and George bush too. Now were to believe you too?

Joseph Smith claimed visions. Visions are in a completely different category than what I am talking about. George & George made no extraordinary claims that I am aware of.

Are you to believe me? You can if you like. All I know is what I state. Anything you might know that might help me find what I am looking for would be appreciated. If I can I will help you with anything that you are looking for.

 

[RandomVariable]

I don't mean to be such a jerk here, all of you ask good questions. But why is it so hard to prove something that should be so basic? God's existence should be rock solid and unarguable by any rational human being. But God just isn't there, not any more than Santa Claus. The spiritual thing I understand. The supernatural is a like fantasy movie or video game character. They might be inspirational, but they just aren't tangible. God is not REAL. When she or he or they DO show up, I will be the first to apologize.

Bear with me, because I am told I often come at things from strange angles. What if somehow humans intrinsically know there is an unseen God. Because of this, we now have it within ourselves to make up other unseen people (Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy.) Since all of these unseen people are clearly made up, then does it necessarily follow that all unseen beings are unreal? Where did we get the idea of an unseen being? Even the animals we make up are made up of parts of other animals.

There are two problems to overcome while seeking God. The first is that we are told we can't put God to the test. We want to test to see if God is there, and therefore instantly set ourselves up to fail. We can't find God through testing. The second mistake is that we have an idea of God, and we go in search of that idea, not of God.

The Book of Kings tells the story of a prophet who wanted God to reveal Himself. He looked for God in things of might and power--and he didn't find God's revelation of Himself in those events. Instead, God revealed Himself in a tiny, whispering sound. When I first heard this account, it dawned on me--if we are made in the image and likeness of God--and God is found in a tiny whisper--then God just might be more shy than I am. No wonder He is so hard to find.

I like the searching for God description. Very good. Elijah was the prophet, right? (As I remember it.) God actually said said he was going to speak or something like that. The earth shook, but God was not in it. There was a great wind, but God was not in it. Then there was a small voice, and that was God. I have experienced that. I think needless to say it is really cool. <- Slight understatement.

 

[sealybobo]

No , I just want proof God exists, hunches excluded... real palpable hold in your hands tally up the numbers seeing is believing facts. It's one thing to question atheists, it's another to put GOD on a silver platter for all of us to see.

I do not know why but for some reason God has decided to give me 'seeing is believe' evidence that he is real. Understand though has come from the Bible, KJV OT. Let's say I knew nothing of who God is. If he just showed up in a whirlwind before me I would gather all these ideas about God and a completely inaccurate picture of God would get implanted in my mind. So for me anyway, God had let me know he existed before but about a year ago he told me to start reading the KVJ of the OT. A little specific I know. From where I was then of knowing there was a God to my understanding of him now is a million miles, I might have a million more to go. So I guess what I am doing is apologizing because the truth of the matter is I have absolutely no idea how to convince you there is a God. I would have not believed anyone but God either.

God talked to Osama bin ladin too

Where is that stated?

God told Joseph smith the traditional christian churches were all corrupt and to start the Mormon church too. George Washington and George bush too. Now were to believe you too?

Joseph Smith claimed visions. Visions are in a completely different category than what I am talking about. George & George made no extraordinary claims that I am aware of.

Are you to believe me? You can if you like. All I know is what I state. Anything you might know that might help me find what I am looking for would be appreciated. If I can I will help you with anything that you are looking for.

This astronomer said if you look out at the universe and see everything going on and understand all the different galaxies and the billions of years and other suns and planets that are out there its impossible to think that we on this planet are anything special.

Maybe before we had telescopes but theists still think the earth is a stationary planet and the universe revolves around them.

The absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

If I told you my car flew would you want to test drive it or would you buy it because I have witnesses? So you would need proof?

Because we have completely different stories about god in Iran Iraq India Europe Israel native Americans ancient Greeks Babylonian Egypt it is a cultural phenomenon.

Why would we have mental retardation polio small pox birth defects and cancer in kids?

 

[Meriweather]

You've been brainwashed. Probably deep down you know this and don't care because its better to be safe than sorry. Not to mention wishful thinking

Grin. It's cute how you try to read minds.

Look, I totally understand that your own rejection of God has you thinking that everyone else is the same as you. You see the only way you would be able to believe in God is if someone brainwashed you. You are relieved that your mind hasn't been compromised. With no belief in God, your only option is to believe that I have been brainwashed--or that something is wrong with my brain.

 

[sealybobo]

You've been brainwashed. Probably deep down you know this and don't care because its better to be safe than sorry. Not to mention wishful thinking

Grin. It's cute how you try to read minds.

Look, I totally understand that your own rejection of God has you thinking that everyone else is the same as you. You see the only way you would be able to believe in God is if someone brainwashed you. You are relieved that your mind hasn't been compromised. With no belief in God, your only option is to believe that I have been brainwashed--or that something is wrong with my brain.

Trying to explain all the reasons people believe. You are a human right?

 

[Meriweather]

I like the searching for God description. Very good. Elijah was the prophet, right? (As I remember it.) God actually said said he was going to speak or something like that. The earth shook, but God was not in it. There was a great wind, but God was not in it. Then there was a small voice, and that was God. I have experienced that. I think needless to say it is really cool. <- Slight understatement.

What we see down through the ages is that mankind holds a belief in God. People offer different explanations for this: We are afraid of dying, we need to know there is something better, we want someone to take care of us--and so on and so forth. The truth is much simpler, but harder to deal with. Down through the ages, continuing to this day, people have experiences of God. There is something greater than us.

 

[Meriweather]

You are a human right?

What gave me away?

 

[sealybobo]

I like the searching for God description. Very good. Elijah was the prophet, right? (As I remember it.) God actually said said he was going to speak or something like that. The earth shook, but God was not in it. There was a great wind, but God was not in it. Then there was a small voice, and that was God. I have experienced that. I think needless to say it is really cool. <- Slight understatement.

What we see down through the ages is that mankind holds a belief in God. People offer different explanations for this: We are afraid of dying, we need to know there is something better, we want someone to take care of us--and so on and so forth. The truth is much simpler, but harder to deal with. Down through the ages, continuing to this day, people have experiences of God. There is something greater than us.

If I have an experience with god I'll start believing. Or should I just take your word for it.

My super religious friend swears an angel saved his life.

PS. Tell me the next time a known atheist has an experience with god.

Notice only people who believe in ghosts have seen them. The minds a pretty amazing thing and were all different. You may have the superstitious gene

 

[Meriweather]

You may have the superstitious gene

Oh, dear. I suppose I should stop walking under ladders, opening umbrellas inside, and laughing when black cats pass in front of me. I may be messing with that "superstitious gene." Do you think I should begin knocking on wood?

 

[Olde Europe]

Great to watch, clear thinking


'I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about? How dare you?' Fry responds to a totally stunned Byrne. 'How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault? It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil. 'Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God that creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain?' Flabbergasted, Byrne sputters out: 'And you think you're going to get in?...' 'But I wouldn't want to,' Fry confirms. 'I wouldn't want to get in on his terms.' - "

That problem has been around for a while, and they even have a fancy name for it: Theodicy.

To the problem mentioned by Fry, I'd say, the possibility of cancer (a genetic transcription error) is the necessary precondition of our (humans') existence. Without these "errors", evolution would have stalled at the earliest life forms. Without the possibility of cancer there's no Fry to complain about cancer.

I believe there isn't a compelling solution to the problem of theodicy human reason would be able to grasp. Here's a concise take on Hume' discourse, for instance.

Here's my take, warts and all: Imagine a world without pain, suffering, peril, or evil. Then try to imagine what kind of "humankind" would have evolved under such circumstances. I believe we wouldn't like, or even recognize, the results thereof. For everything worthwhile humans built, or developed sprung from the desire or need to avert evil or suffering, starting with the need to know harmless from harmful, and good from evil. Without peril and suffering, there would be no science, probably not even language evolving from the need to coordinate action against peril. As much of our arts are grounded in experience of suffering and pain, that, too, wouldn't enrich our world. We wouldn't plan, we wouldn't study, we wouldn't strive for excellence, since neither would make any sense in a world in which no ill can befall us. We wouldn't have empathy (makes no sense without suffering), and thus there wouldn't even be love, since that might imply loss, and thus suffering. In the end, we wouldn't even get to know each other.

In short, humankind would be a gaggle of insufferable, lobotomized slouches, hardly distinct from stones, except for the chemistry.

The above, of course, is just the elaboration of a merely human brain trying to imagine what a "perfect world" might look like, and thus would easily be dismissed since, well, perfection and humans patently don't live in the same universe.

 

[sealybobo]

Great to watch, clear thinking


'I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about? How dare you?' Fry responds to a totally stunned Byrne. 'How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault? It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil. 'Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God that creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain?' Flabbergasted, Byrne sputters out: 'And you think you're going to get in?...' 'But I wouldn't want to,' Fry confirms. 'I wouldn't want to get in on his terms.' - "

That problem has been around for a while, and they even have a fancy name for it: Theodicy.

To the problem mentioned by Fry, I'd say, the possibility of cancer (a genetic transcription error) is the necessary precondition of our (humans') existence. Without these "errors", evolution would have stalled at the earliest life forms. Without the possibility of cancer there's no Fry to complain about cancer.

I believe there isn't a compelling solution to the problem of theodicy human reason would be able to grasp. Here's a concise take on Hume' discourse, for instance.

Here's my take, warts and all: Imagine a world without pain, suffering, peril, or evil. Then try to imagine what kind of "humankind" would have evolved under such circumstances. I believe we wouldn't like, or even recognize, the results thereof. For everything worthwhile humans built, or developed sprung from the desire or need to avert evil or suffering, starting with the need to know harmless from harmful, and good from evil. Without peril and suffering, there would be no science, probably not even language evolving from the need to coordinate action against peril. As much of our arts are grounded in experience of suffering and pain, that, too, wouldn't enrich our world. We wouldn't plan, we wouldn't study, we wouldn't strive for excellence, since neither would make any sense in a world in which no ill can befall us. We wouldn't have empathy (makes no sense without suffering), and thus there wouldn't even be love, since that might imply loss, and thus suffering. In the end, we wouldn't even get to know each other.

In short, humankind would be a gaggle of insufferable, lobotomized slouches, hardly distinct from stones, except for the chemistry.

The above, of course, is just the elaboration of a merely human brain trying to imagine what a "perfect world" might look like, and thus would easily be dismissed since, well, perfection and humans patently don't live in the same universe.

Just don't tell us an omnibonevalent all knowing loving god intelligently designed us or this world. Or try to explain it all away with sin.

The ancient Greeks thought Zeus was angry when lightening struck or famine or small pox or your baby was born retarded.

 

[sealybobo]

Great to watch, clear thinking


'I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about? How dare you?' Fry responds to a totally stunned Byrne. 'How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault? It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil. 'Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God that creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain?' Flabbergasted, Byrne sputters out: 'And you think you're going to get in?...' 'But I wouldn't want to,' Fry confirms. 'I wouldn't want to get in on his terms.' - "

That problem has been around for a while, and they even have a fancy name for it: Theodicy.

To the problem mentioned by Fry, I'd say, the possibility of cancer (a genetic transcription error) is the necessary precondition of our (humans') existence. Without these "errors", evolution would have stalled at the earliest life forms. Without the possibility of cancer there's no Fry to complain about cancer.

I believe there isn't a compelling solution to the problem of theodicy human reason would be able to grasp. Here's a concise take on Hume' discourse, for instance.

Here's my take, warts and all: Imagine a world without pain, suffering, peril, or evil. Then try to imagine what kind of "humankind" would have evolved under such circumstances. I believe we wouldn't like, or even recognize, the results thereof. For everything worthwhile humans built, or developed sprung from the desire or need to avert evil or suffering, starting with the need to know harmless from harmful, and good from evil. Without peril and suffering, there would be no science, probably not even language evolving from the need to coordinate action against peril. As much of our arts are grounded in experience of suffering and pain, that, too, wouldn't enrich our world. We wouldn't plan, we wouldn't study, we wouldn't strive for excellence, since neither would make any sense in a world in which no ill can befall us. We wouldn't have empathy (makes no sense without suffering), and thus there wouldn't even be love, since that might imply loss, and thus suffering. In the end, we wouldn't even get to know each other.

In short, humankind would be a gaggle of insufferable, lobotomized slouches, hardly distinct from stones, except for the chemistry.

The above, of course, is just the elaboration of a merely human brain trying to imagine what a "perfect world" might look like, and thus would easily be dismissed since, well, perfection and humans patently don't live in the same universe.

The ancient Greeks told stories about gods but rarely did humans get to become gods. The christian religion was an easy sell. Hey! Would you like to be a god live in paradise after you die? There's a way. Just buy the story I tell you and join my church and give 10% to my church and you're in

 

[Olde Europe]

Just don't tell us an omnibonevalent all knowing loving god intelligently designed us or this world. Or try to explain it all away with sin.

Most assuredly, I would never even try to do that. Actually, I strongly believe that a little toddler goddess set off a little cracker (which humans in their endless self-aggrandizement shortly thereafter called the "big bang"), and then turned around to play with her more interesting toys, never to revisit again the mess she flippantly created on her infinite playground.

 

[sealybobo]

Just don't tell us an omnibonevalent all knowing loving god intelligently designed us or this world. Or try to explain it all away with sin.

Most assuredly, I would never even try to do that. Actually, I strongly believe that a little toddler goddess set off a little cracker (which humans in their endless self-aggrandizement shortly thereafter called the "big bang"), and then turned around to play with her more interesting toys, never to revisit again the mess she flippantly created on her infinite playground.

Agreed!

But tell me why we can't see it? Why no fingerprint?

We've only just begun to understand the universe. What it looks like is that the universe is eternal and infinite. It looks like the universe doesn't care what is happening on earth and will continue to exist long after we've gone.

There are billions of other life on other planets. There are billions of stars that have burned out billions of years ago and the lives on those planets are all gone. And there are billions of figure or new stars that will be formed in billions of years and they will one day harbor life.

And that's just our universe. There are intimate universes. Hard to wrap your brain around that? Of course. That's why you're comfortable with thinking god exists and cares about you.

 

[Meriweather]

Just don't tell us an omnibonevalent all knowing loving god intelligently designed us or this world. Or try to explain it all away with sin.

The ancient Greeks thought Zeus was angry when lightening struck or famine or small pox or your baby was born retarded.

Can you at least get Greek Mythology correct? The Greeks actually theorized that smallpox came from the air. Yes, there was a story that an angry god caused the smallpox--but that angry god was Juno, who was angry at Aegina for lying with Zeus.

If you can't even get Greek mythology correct, how do you expect any credibility for your assertions about God?

 

[sealybobo]

Just don't tell us an omnibonevalent all knowing loving god intelligently designed us or this world. Or try to explain it all away with sin.

The ancient Greeks thought Zeus was angry when lightening struck or famine or small pox or your baby was born retarded.

Can you at least get Greek Mythology correct? The Greeks actually theorized that smallpox came from the air. Yes, there was a story that an angry god caused the smallpox--but that angry god was Juno, who was angry at Aegina for lying with Zeus.

If you can't even get Greek mythology correct, how do you expect any credibility for your assertions about God?

I think you got the point without me telling you exactly which god was blamed for each tragedy.

I also don't need to know who said what in the bible or Koran to know it too is all made up.

 

[Meriweather]

I think you got the point without me telling you exactly which god was blamed for each tragedy.

I also don't need to know who said what in the bible or Koran to know it too is all made up.

The point is that people try to compare Greek religions to Christianity without understanding either. As a Christian who has loved Greek mythology almost as long as I have been Christian, I find myself saying Arrrggghh! when someone gets both wrong. (A bit exasperated, but not really perturbed.)