Trumpers tired of winning yet? Mine shutdowns in top US coal region bring new uncertainty

[NightFox]

Surely even Trumpsters recognize that the days of dirty energy are numbered.

The least they could do is sincerely advocate for R&D on clean, renewable energy.

You'd think we could all agree on at least THAT.

But I don't think that's allowed in their world.
.

What good does "advocating" do when the MARKET isn't going to (and never should) listen to anything beyond price?

Private industry will handle the R&D, getting politics involved will just slow things down and cause a rush to feed at the Washington favoritism trough; when "clean, renewable" is price competitive with "dirty, nonrenewable" then consumers will choose it in significant amounts.

.. and as far as the "days of dirty energy are numbered" , how do you figure that? Developing countries are perfectly happy burning fossil fuels and will be for the foreseeable future so we'll have plenty of customers for our fossil fuels for many years to come, even if/when our domestic energy supply goes majority clean/renewable.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You haven't presented a single option except, "I demand it MY way". Hate to break it to you but reality doesn't work that way for any of us. Then you run off at the fingers about "WhataboutHillary". That is sad. That means you don't have a message and are incapable of working on any solution to the problem. Coal has become a secondary source of power and in 5 years, it won't be making any power at all. And that has been it's primary use. Only it's secondary uses will continue.

You and your band or criminals have shouted down every suggestion on a solution to the problem of displaced workers. You have shouted down every mention of helping with the retraining and creating alternative jobs. You don't want solutions. You only want to follow your Rump in a daze and just ignore reality. America is taking names and will be kicking ass. Rump along with Moscow Mitch will be no longer messing things up after next year. We are tired of the Reality TV Show crap and that includes your sideshow Stripper and Donkey act.

1. Coal is now secondary. It only generates 27% of the nations electricity. Which dwarfs all renewables combined, which is only at 17%. Coal will not be gone in 5 years. There could be DECADES of good jobs for a lot of people, that you want to replace with bullshit. You are thus the one ignoring reality.

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)


2. President Trump is not the one with an irrational hostility to a major sector of the economy, willing to shit can the jobs in it, for no reason.

3. The solution is to milk this cash cow for all it is worth.


4. The counter solutions you offer, have been tried and found wanting time and time again. They are bullshit.


5. IF you win, that just proves that you won, doesnt' prove that you right.

You have presented ZERO suggestions for solutions. You want to have a meaningful discussion, you have to do your part.

Tag, you are it.

My solution to the slow decline of coal is to milk it for all it is worth, while growing the national labor market with better trade and immigration policy, so that as coal declines, there are plenty of opportunities for displaced workers.

And who provides the retraining? We are talking about people that have no means to relocate nor afford the retraining themselves. Most have gone without a paycheck for so long that they have no choice but to take advantage of government welfare heavily just to feed their families.

And who is going to provide the jobs for these newly trained workers?

YOu know that there are tens of thousands of coal miners employed in the US, right now, right? And my question was in response to YOUR question about what to do with CURRENT miners, in the future, as Coal declines.


Are you trying to muddy the water, to confuse the issue? Or just incapable of following your own argument?

There are also tens of thousands of coal miners unemployed as well without the means to help themselves out of the rut they are placed in. And those CURRENT miners are, in the near future, going to be in the same plight. You are deflecting on this one.. You don't have an answer, do you, that fall inside your rump policy without sounding too much like a little social medicine. That would be too close to FDR and what you believe to be Socialism. As time goes on, get used to it, the Community (what other word sounds a lot like that) will need to step up to the plate to prevent places that have industry that has moved on leaving the displaced workers and created more Detroits. Yes, the fall of the factories in Detroit created Detroit's many bad social problems. And now, it's affecting White People. The problem is, if you lift one finger to help those "White People" you are also going to be held to do the same for "Non Whites" as well.. So you stick your head in the sand.

So take a good hard look at Detroit. The Coal Industry is headed the same direction. Now, what do you suggest to help these displaced workers that are now AND in the future. It's not going away.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Surely even Trumpsters recognize that the days of dirty energy are numbered.

The least they could do is sincerely advocate for R&D on clean, renewable energy.

You'd think we could all agree on at least THAT.

But I don't think that's allowed in their world.
.

What good does "advocating" do when the MARKET isn't going to (and never should) listen to anything beyond price?

Private industry will handle the R&D, getting politics involved will just slow things down and cause a rush to feed at the Washington favoritism trough; when "clean, renewable" is price competitive with "dirty, nonrenewable" then consumers will choose it in significant amounts.

.. and as far as the "days of dirty energy are numbered" , how do you figure that? Developing countries are perfectly happy burning fossil fuels and will be for the foreseeable future so we'll have plenty of customers for our fossil fuels for many years to come, even if/when our domestic energy supply goes majority clean/renewable.

More countries would buy our CNG than our coal. There is more money to be made in shipping liquid natural gas than coal. Pound for pound, it's just more profitable. The pipeline from Colorado the Oregon as well as the Port has become a political football. Japan and many other Asian countries would buy every CFM we could pump onto the ships.If given the choice between Coal and Natural Gas, it's a slam dunk. Instead of jumping on this opportunity with both feet, there are those in the Rump Camp and others that still try and push exporting coal where the margin for profit is many times less.

Japan doesn't burn too much coal and really hates dealing with Russia on anything but they have no choice. The same goes for many other Asian countries. But when Russia is the only game in town for Natural Gas and you don't want the brown haze over your country, you do what you have to do.

But our need to ship coal overseas is also going away for the same reasons it's going away here. Shipping Coal on ships brings the cost of coal way up because it's pretty light per energy unit. Shipping CNG means you get a lot more energy units in the same weight and cargo space and make a lot more money. Plus,, you just did the world a big favor.

 

[Correll]

Research is ongoing and fine. But the advocates are emotionally invested in systems that, if used to replace "dirty" energy, would cause serious economic hardship.

...at this very moment. And progress is being slowed by an absolute refusal of the Right to participate in good faith.

Hey, here's an idea: Why don't we get a bunch of smart people from all the across the political spectrum together and....

Okay. I'm just kidding. I know America doesn't do that any more.
.

A recurring response I get, when I point out that, renewable energy is not ready to replace conventional energy at this point in time?


Is to be accused of being emotionally invested in conventional energy.



It is the Left that is not operating in good faith.

 

[Correll]

1. Coal is now secondary. It only generates 27% of the nations electricity. Which dwarfs all renewables combined, which is only at 17%. Coal will not be gone in 5 years. There could be DECADES of good jobs for a lot of people, that you want to replace with bullshit. You are thus the one ignoring reality.

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)


2. President Trump is not the one with an irrational hostility to a major sector of the economy, willing to shit can the jobs in it, for no reason.

3. The solution is to milk this cash cow for all it is worth.


4. The counter solutions you offer, have been tried and found wanting time and time again. They are bullshit.


5. IF you win, that just proves that you won, doesnt' prove that you right.

You have presented ZERO suggestions for solutions. You want to have a meaningful discussion, you have to do your part.

Tag, you are it.

My solution to the slow decline of coal is to milk it for all it is worth, while growing the national labor market with better trade and immigration policy, so that as coal declines, there are plenty of opportunities for displaced workers.

And who provides the retraining? We are talking about people that have no means to relocate nor afford the retraining themselves. Most have gone without a paycheck for so long that they have no choice but to take advantage of government welfare heavily just to feed their families.

And who is going to provide the jobs for these newly trained workers?

YOu know that there are tens of thousands of coal miners employed in the US, right now, right? And my question was in response to YOUR question about what to do with CURRENT miners, in the future, as Coal declines.


Are you trying to muddy the water, to confuse the issue? Or just incapable of following your own argument?

There are also tens of thousands of coal miners unemployed as well without the means to help themselves out of the rut they are placed in. And those CURRENT miners are, in the near future, going to be in the same plight. You are deflecting on this one.. You don't have an answer, do you, that fall inside your rump policy without sounding too much like a little social medicine. That would be too close to FDR and what you believe to be Socialism. As time goes on, get used to it, the Community (what other word sounds a lot like that) will need to step up to the plate to prevent places that have industry that has moved on leaving the displaced workers and created more Detroits. Yes, the fall of the factories in Detroit created Detroit's many bad social problems. And now, it's affecting White People. The problem is, if you lift one finger to help those "White People" you are also going to be held to do the same for "Non Whites" as well.. So you stick your head in the sand.

So take a good hard look at Detroit. The Coal Industry is headed the same direction. Now, what do you suggest to help these displaced workers that are now AND in the future. It's not going away.

1. We were talking about current coal miners and what to do as coal declines. Your desire to change the subject is noted and denied.


2. I gave you my answer for current miners.

3. Your use of buzz words, like "Socialism" and "Community" is noted and dismissed.


4. Your race baiting is noted. Very interesting. I have not mentioned race. Is Race the reason you are so committed to seeing these miners to be dependent on the government?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You have presented ZERO suggestions for solutions. You want to have a meaningful discussion, you have to do your part.

Tag, you are it.

My solution to the slow decline of coal is to milk it for all it is worth, while growing the national labor market with better trade and immigration policy, so that as coal declines, there are plenty of opportunities for displaced workers.

And who provides the retraining? We are talking about people that have no means to relocate nor afford the retraining themselves. Most have gone without a paycheck for so long that they have no choice but to take advantage of government welfare heavily just to feed their families.

And who is going to provide the jobs for these newly trained workers?

YOu know that there are tens of thousands of coal miners employed in the US, right now, right? And my question was in response to YOUR question about what to do with CURRENT miners, in the future, as Coal declines.


Are you trying to muddy the water, to confuse the issue? Or just incapable of following your own argument?

There are also tens of thousands of coal miners unemployed as well without the means to help themselves out of the rut they are placed in. And those CURRENT miners are, in the near future, going to be in the same plight. You are deflecting on this one.. You don't have an answer, do you, that fall inside your rump policy without sounding too much like a little social medicine. That would be too close to FDR and what you believe to be Socialism. As time goes on, get used to it, the Community (what other word sounds a lot like that) will need to step up to the plate to prevent places that have industry that has moved on leaving the displaced workers and created more Detroits. Yes, the fall of the factories in Detroit created Detroit's many bad social problems. And now, it's affecting White People. The problem is, if you lift one finger to help those "White People" you are also going to be held to do the same for "Non Whites" as well.. So you stick your head in the sand.

So take a good hard look at Detroit. The Coal Industry is headed the same direction. Now, what do you suggest to help these displaced workers that are now AND in the future. It's not going away.

1. We were talking about current coal miners and what to do as coal declines. Your desire to change the subject is noted and denied.


2. I gave you my answer for current miners.

3. Your use of buzz words, like "Socialism" and "Community" is noted and dismissed.


4. Your race baiting is noted. Very interesting. I have not mentioned race. Is Race the reason you are so committed to seeing these miners to be dependent on the government?

Socialism and Communism has nothing to do with "Race". They are Economic Methods just like Capitalism. You keep trying to plug them into government models. They aren't.

Communism means Communal or Community. There is NO Government. Everyone owns everything equally. It presumes that everyone is honest to a fault. It doesn't take into account that almost every person has a bit of larceny in their blood no matter how well their intentions are. It only works in small groups. Certainly not in large groups.

Socialism is where the Government controls and/or owns the things that affect the greater part of society. For instance, MOST Commercial Airlines are owned by Governments with the exception of the United States. But the United States regulates the Airlines heavily. So the affect is the same. The difference is, the US mixes Socialist controls or regulations with Capitalism so the Airlines make a profit. Russia Airline operates at a loss and has to be propped up as do MOST other Airlines in the world. But you can't remove the Regulations. Otherwise, the short term profits would turn into a large number of flaming plane wrecks and dead. That was how Commercial Airlines started until some semblance of sanity had to be infused. And that sanity came from the Federal Government in the form of the FAA. Yes, the FAA is part of a Socialist Method because without it, you really don't want to be trying to fly the ugly skies.

Capitalism is where the money is made, yes. But if left unchecked, only the biggest and the strongest will prevail. You honestly believe that small business would exist in a pure Capitalist environment? It wouldn't. Take the worst of the lot. Take Microsoft. The literally raped small businesses to build their kingdom. Each and every time a small software writer would make a break through, MS would include that, for a charge, into their windows system. But just as quickly as they could, they would include their own version of the same software for "Free" and the small business would go out of business. One would think that MS was a pioneer but instead, they were pirates with real deep pockets that were above the law. They were so large, you couldn't afford to sue them. You ran out of money long before you got results. When a company gets that large and powerful, only a Government is big enough and rich enough to hold them accountable. Capitalism without Regulation or "Social" limits will end up destroying every other like company sooner or later. MS is listed as a Monopoly and has to operate within a certain set of confines today. It's okay to be a monopoly as long as you don't act like one. But that wasn't always the case for MS.

So we mix Socialism with Capitalism in the United States. It's worked well for over 200 years. And we move the amount of each back and forth as needed. The problem we have right now is, we have corrupted the government to the point where it has zero moral compass. We are at the cusp of needing to retrain workers and create jobs by the only agency that has the clout to do so. And that agency is the Government. And, yes, at first, it's going to be a money losing situation. But, unlike Capitalism that has existed for the last 40 years, the long run is what is important. Even many of the corporate board rooms are starting to discuss this now. The only style Capitalist are starting to return where they do take into consideration social methods. That was lost for the last 40 years where it's been just bottom line and short term profit. Henry Ford I broke out of that model in the 19oughts and was called a Traitor to his Class. And because he was so successful for so many years, it became the model. But that model has been forgotten or misplaced.

You want to stay in the Short Term Bottom Line. We are now making a swing away from that. And it's going to be a learning curve for you. Us Old Hands remember when the long term was the norm. It's coming back.. We remember the days when the Company worked closely with the community. We remember when the Company would hire kids, put them in apprentice jobs and groom them for years of service. You didn't see any signs that says, "Now Hiring, Only Prior Experience may apply".

You are getting ready to see short term Government Investments working with Commercial Companies to bring jobs into areas with large populations and no jobs. Places like Coal towns. For every one coal job that exists, there are at least 4 people out of work in that same area. And if you figure that if every one of those 4 affects 20 others, that means those 4 affects 80 jobs. When you lay off 200 that means you just created 4000 unemployed or underemployed people. And counting the Underemployed People as employed is just spoofing the system. And the system has been gamed for the last 20 or 30 years to the point you think it's normal. It's not normal. It's something that's actually quite new.

When I say Government, I actually mean Communities. And the Government is just part of the community. It's the way it used to be and it worked for more than 200 years until the Greedy, short bottom line slugs got into control. It isn't just about the CEOs and Share Holders. Many large Corporations are doing a rethink in the board room today. It's going to be a long haul and you are going to fight it left and right. In fact, both the extremist left and rights will fight it but the rest of us will be the better for it.

So keep screaming and squirming. But you just as well just enjoy the ride. For the true Conservatives, it's going back to a better day.

 

[Mac1958]

Research is ongoing and fine. But the advocates are emotionally invested in systems that, if used to replace "dirty" energy, would cause serious economic hardship.

...at this very moment. And progress is being slowed by an absolute refusal of the Right to participate in good faith.

Hey, here's an idea: Why don't we get a bunch of smart people from all the across the political spectrum together and....

Okay. I'm just kidding. I know America doesn't do that any more.
.

A recurring response I get, when I point out that, renewable energy is not ready to replace conventional energy at this point in time?


Is to be accused of being emotionally invested in conventional energy.



It is the Left that is not operating in good faith.

I don't think you're emotionally invested in it, I think you're politically/ideologically invested in it.

The Right is clearly not serious about advocating for clean energy. When it happens, hey, it happens. That's not advocacy.
.

 

[Correll]

My solution to the slow decline of coal is to milk it for all it is worth, while growing the national labor market with better trade and immigration policy, so that as coal declines, there are plenty of opportunities for displaced workers.

And who provides the retraining? We are talking about people that have no means to relocate nor afford the retraining themselves. Most have gone without a paycheck for so long that they have no choice but to take advantage of government welfare heavily just to feed their families.

And who is going to provide the jobs for these newly trained workers?

YOu know that there are tens of thousands of coal miners employed in the US, right now, right? And my question was in response to YOUR question about what to do with CURRENT miners, in the future, as Coal declines.


Are you trying to muddy the water, to confuse the issue? Or just incapable of following your own argument?

There are also tens of thousands of coal miners unemployed as well without the means to help themselves out of the rut they are placed in. And those CURRENT miners are, in the near future, going to be in the same plight. You are deflecting on this one.. You don't have an answer, do you, that fall inside your rump policy without sounding too much like a little social medicine. That would be too close to FDR and what you believe to be Socialism. As time goes on, get used to it, the Community (what other word sounds a lot like that) will need to step up to the plate to prevent places that have industry that has moved on leaving the displaced workers and created more Detroits. Yes, the fall of the factories in Detroit created Detroit's many bad social problems. And now, it's affecting White People. The problem is, if you lift one finger to help those "White People" you are also going to be held to do the same for "Non Whites" as well.. So you stick your head in the sand.

So take a good hard look at Detroit. The Coal Industry is headed the same direction. Now, what do you suggest to help these displaced workers that are now AND in the future. It's not going away.

1. We were talking about current coal miners and what to do as coal declines. Your desire to change the subject is noted and denied.


2. I gave you my answer for current miners.

3. Your use of buzz words, like "Socialism" and "Community" is noted and dismissed.


4. Your race baiting is noted. Very interesting. I have not mentioned race. Is Race the reason you are so committed to seeing these miners to be dependent on the government?

Socialism and Communism has nothing to do with "Race". They are Economic Methods just like Capitalism. You keep trying to plug them into government models. They aren't.

Communism means Communal or Community. There is NO Government. Everyone owns everything equally. It presumes that everyone is honest to a fault. It doesn't take into account that almost every person has a bit of larceny in their blood no matter how well their intentions are. It only works in small groups. Certainly not in large groups.

Socialism is where the Government controls and/or owns the things that affect the greater part of society. For instance, MOST Commercial Airlines are owned by Governments with the exception of the United States. But the United States regulates the Airlines heavily. So the affect is the same. The difference is, the US mixes Socialist controls or regulations with Capitalism so the Airlines make a profit. Russia Airline operates at a loss and has to be propped up as do MOST other Airlines in the world. But you can't remove the Regulations. Otherwise, the short term profits would turn into a large number of flaming plane wrecks and dead. That was how Commercial Airlines started until some semblance of sanity had to be infused. And that sanity came from the Federal Government in the form of the FAA. Yes, the FAA is part of a Socialist Method because without it, you really don't want to be trying to fly the ugly skies.

Capitalism is where the money is made, yes. But if left unchecked, only the biggest and the strongest will prevail. You honestly believe that small business would exist in a pure Capitalist environment? It wouldn't. Take the worst of the lot. Take Microsoft. The literally raped small businesses to build their kingdom. Each and every time a small software writer would make a break through, MS would include that, for a charge, into their windows system. But just as quickly as they could, they would include their own version of the same software for "Free" and the small business would go out of business. One would think that MS was a pioneer but instead, they were pirates with real deep pockets that were above the law. They were so large, you couldn't afford to sue them. You ran out of money long before you got results. When a company gets that large and powerful, only a Government is big enough and rich enough to hold them accountable. Capitalism without Regulation or "Social" limits will end up destroying every other like company sooner or later. MS is listed as a Monopoly and has to operate within a certain set of confines today. It's okay to be a monopoly as long as you don't act like one. But that wasn't always the case for MS.

So we mix Socialism with Capitalism in the United States. It's worked well for over 200 years. And we move the amount of each back and forth as needed. The problem we have right now is, we have corrupted the government to the point where it has zero moral compass. We are at the cusp of needing to retrain workers and create jobs by the only agency that has the clout to do so. And that agency is the Government. And, yes, at first, it's going to be a money losing situation. But, unlike Capitalism that has existed for the last 40 years, the long run is what is important. Even many of the corporate board rooms are starting to discuss this now. The only style Capitalist are starting to return where they do take into consideration social methods. That was lost for the last 40 years where it's been just bottom line and short term profit. Henry Ford I broke out of that model in the 19oughts and was called a Traitor to his Class. And because he was so successful for so many years, it became the model. But that model has been forgotten or misplaced.

You want to stay in the Short Term Bottom Line. We are now making a swing away from that. And it's going to be a learning curve for you. Us Old Hands remember when the long term was the norm. It's coming back.. We remember the days when the Company worked closely with the community. We remember when the Company would hire kids, put them in apprentice jobs and groom them for years of service. You didn't see any signs that says, "Now Hiring, Only Prior Experience may apply".

You are getting ready to see short term Government Investments working with Commercial Companies to bring jobs into areas with large populations and no jobs. Places like Coal towns. For every one coal job that exists, there are at least 4 people out of work in that same area. And if you figure that if every one of those 4 affects 20 others, that means those 4 affects 80 jobs. When you lay off 200 that means you just created 4000 unemployed or underemployed people. And counting the Underemployed People as employed is just spoofing the system. And the system has been gamed for the last 20 or 30 years to the point you think it's normal. It's not normal. It's something that's actually quite new.

When I say Government, I actually mean Communities. And the Government is just part of the community. It's the way it used to be and it worked for more than 200 years until the Greedy, short bottom line slugs got into control. It isn't just about the CEOs and Share Holders. Many large Corporations are doing a rethink in the board room today. It's going to be a long haul and you are going to fight it left and right. In fact, both the extremist left and rights will fight it but the rest of us will be the better for it.

So keep screaming and squirming. But you just as well just enjoy the ride. For the true Conservatives, it's going back to a better day.

1. I'm not trying to "do" anything with socialism or communism or race. YOU mentioned those as buzzwords, not me.


2. I am not advocating for pure capitalism. I am arguing against having government policy being hostile to a large sector of the economy that employs tens of thousands of people, and I am defending those people, basing their political support on the fact that one party and candidate was actively hostile to them. It is insufferable that people are being attacked for not wanting to lose good paying jobs.


3. Retraining has become a buzzword in itself. It is not used to actually retrain people and get them jobs, but to give the appearance of addressing the problem.


4. The problem with America is not lack of moral compass in government, but lack of any moral compass in society as a whole. The former ideas that bound US together, have ALL been under attack over the last 50 or 60 years, religion, patriotism, pride in shared culture or heritage, nationalism, language. That is what the Culture War is about.


5. Capitalism is not returning to considering the community. THey are conforming to the New Order. This is not a renewable, but just a continuing of our decline.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

And who provides the retraining? We are talking about people that have no means to relocate nor afford the retraining themselves. Most have gone without a paycheck for so long that they have no choice but to take advantage of government welfare heavily just to feed their families.

And who is going to provide the jobs for these newly trained workers?

YOu know that there are tens of thousands of coal miners employed in the US, right now, right? And my question was in response to YOUR question about what to do with CURRENT miners, in the future, as Coal declines.


Are you trying to muddy the water, to confuse the issue? Or just incapable of following your own argument?

There are also tens of thousands of coal miners unemployed as well without the means to help themselves out of the rut they are placed in. And those CURRENT miners are, in the near future, going to be in the same plight. You are deflecting on this one.. You don't have an answer, do you, that fall inside your rump policy without sounding too much like a little social medicine. That would be too close to FDR and what you believe to be Socialism. As time goes on, get used to it, the Community (what other word sounds a lot like that) will need to step up to the plate to prevent places that have industry that has moved on leaving the displaced workers and created more Detroits. Yes, the fall of the factories in Detroit created Detroit's many bad social problems. And now, it's affecting White People. The problem is, if you lift one finger to help those "White People" you are also going to be held to do the same for "Non Whites" as well.. So you stick your head in the sand.

So take a good hard look at Detroit. The Coal Industry is headed the same direction. Now, what do you suggest to help these displaced workers that are now AND in the future. It's not going away.

1. We were talking about current coal miners and what to do as coal declines. Your desire to change the subject is noted and denied.


2. I gave you my answer for current miners.

3. Your use of buzz words, like "Socialism" and "Community" is noted and dismissed.


4. Your race baiting is noted. Very interesting. I have not mentioned race. Is Race the reason you are so committed to seeing these miners to be dependent on the government?

Socialism and Communism has nothing to do with "Race". They are Economic Methods just like Capitalism. You keep trying to plug them into government models. They aren't.

Communism means Communal or Community. There is NO Government. Everyone owns everything equally. It presumes that everyone is honest to a fault. It doesn't take into account that almost every person has a bit of larceny in their blood no matter how well their intentions are. It only works in small groups. Certainly not in large groups.

Socialism is where the Government controls and/or owns the things that affect the greater part of society. For instance, MOST Commercial Airlines are owned by Governments with the exception of the United States. But the United States regulates the Airlines heavily. So the affect is the same. The difference is, the US mixes Socialist controls or regulations with Capitalism so the Airlines make a profit. Russia Airline operates at a loss and has to be propped up as do MOST other Airlines in the world. But you can't remove the Regulations. Otherwise, the short term profits would turn into a large number of flaming plane wrecks and dead. That was how Commercial Airlines started until some semblance of sanity had to be infused. And that sanity came from the Federal Government in the form of the FAA. Yes, the FAA is part of a Socialist Method because without it, you really don't want to be trying to fly the ugly skies.

Capitalism is where the money is made, yes. But if left unchecked, only the biggest and the strongest will prevail. You honestly believe that small business would exist in a pure Capitalist environment? It wouldn't. Take the worst of the lot. Take Microsoft. The literally raped small businesses to build their kingdom. Each and every time a small software writer would make a break through, MS would include that, for a charge, into their windows system. But just as quickly as they could, they would include their own version of the same software for "Free" and the small business would go out of business. One would think that MS was a pioneer but instead, they were pirates with real deep pockets that were above the law. They were so large, you couldn't afford to sue them. You ran out of money long before you got results. When a company gets that large and powerful, only a Government is big enough and rich enough to hold them accountable. Capitalism without Regulation or "Social" limits will end up destroying every other like company sooner or later. MS is listed as a Monopoly and has to operate within a certain set of confines today. It's okay to be a monopoly as long as you don't act like one. But that wasn't always the case for MS.

So we mix Socialism with Capitalism in the United States. It's worked well for over 200 years. And we move the amount of each back and forth as needed. The problem we have right now is, we have corrupted the government to the point where it has zero moral compass. We are at the cusp of needing to retrain workers and create jobs by the only agency that has the clout to do so. And that agency is the Government. And, yes, at first, it's going to be a money losing situation. But, unlike Capitalism that has existed for the last 40 years, the long run is what is important. Even many of the corporate board rooms are starting to discuss this now. The only style Capitalist are starting to return where they do take into consideration social methods. That was lost for the last 40 years where it's been just bottom line and short term profit. Henry Ford I broke out of that model in the 19oughts and was called a Traitor to his Class. And because he was so successful for so many years, it became the model. But that model has been forgotten or misplaced.

You want to stay in the Short Term Bottom Line. We are now making a swing away from that. And it's going to be a learning curve for you. Us Old Hands remember when the long term was the norm. It's coming back.. We remember the days when the Company worked closely with the community. We remember when the Company would hire kids, put them in apprentice jobs and groom them for years of service. You didn't see any signs that says, "Now Hiring, Only Prior Experience may apply".

You are getting ready to see short term Government Investments working with Commercial Companies to bring jobs into areas with large populations and no jobs. Places like Coal towns. For every one coal job that exists, there are at least 4 people out of work in that same area. And if you figure that if every one of those 4 affects 20 others, that means those 4 affects 80 jobs. When you lay off 200 that means you just created 4000 unemployed or underemployed people. And counting the Underemployed People as employed is just spoofing the system. And the system has been gamed for the last 20 or 30 years to the point you think it's normal. It's not normal. It's something that's actually quite new.

When I say Government, I actually mean Communities. And the Government is just part of the community. It's the way it used to be and it worked for more than 200 years until the Greedy, short bottom line slugs got into control. It isn't just about the CEOs and Share Holders. Many large Corporations are doing a rethink in the board room today. It's going to be a long haul and you are going to fight it left and right. In fact, both the extremist left and rights will fight it but the rest of us will be the better for it.

So keep screaming and squirming. But you just as well just enjoy the ride. For the true Conservatives, it's going back to a better day.

1. I'm not trying to "do" anything with socialism or communism or race. YOU mentioned those as buzzwords, not me.


2. I am not advocating for pure capitalism. I am arguing against having government policy being hostile to a large sector of the economy that employs tens of thousands of people, and I am defending those people, basing their political support on the fact that one party and candidate was actively hostile to them. It is insufferable that people are being attacked for not wanting to lose good paying jobs.


3. Retraining has become a buzzword in itself. It is not used to actually retrain people and get them jobs, but to give the appearance of addressing the problem.


4. The problem with America is not lack of moral compass in government, but lack of any moral compass in society as a whole. The former ideas that bound US together, have ALL been under attack over the last 50 or 60 years, religion, patriotism, pride in shared culture or heritage, nationalism, language. That is what the Culture War is about.


5. Capitalism is not returning to considering the community. THey are conforming to the New Order. This is not a renewable, but just a continuing of our decline.

The point is, we DID decline when Capitalists took control completely. They found it was easier and cheaper to buy off the Government than to make a better product, do a better job and have a better company. They learned that investing in buying the Politicians had a higher short term profit. Well, the chickens have come home to roost. It's been reported that the Board Rooms are starting to discuss how to do a better job in their companies including how to do a better job for their employees. Imagine that. Shades of 1908. There is only so many bucks to be had and if the Companies start investing in their most precious resources (the employees) that means there is less money to "Invest" in buying Politicians. I bet that scares the hell out of many of the criminals we now have in Congress and wannabe Presidents.

Again, as a fiscal Conservative, it's a good thing to me. Turn the clock back to the time when the Employer worked with the community and the community looked out after the employer. It brings back the American Dream.

 

[Correll]

Research is ongoing and fine. But the advocates are emotionally invested in systems that, if used to replace "dirty" energy, would cause serious economic hardship.

...at this very moment. And progress is being slowed by an absolute refusal of the Right to participate in good faith.

Hey, here's an idea: Why don't we get a bunch of smart people from all the across the political spectrum together and....

Okay. I'm just kidding. I know America doesn't do that any more.
.

A recurring response I get, when I point out that, renewable energy is not ready to replace conventional energy at this point in time?


Is to be accused of being emotionally invested in conventional energy.



It is the Left that is not operating in good faith.

I don't think you're emotionally invested in it, I think you're politically/ideologically invested in it.

The Right is clearly not serious about advocating for clean energy. When it happens, hey, it happens. That's not advocacy.
.

1. There is nothing in my ideology or politics that requires or is based on what type of energy society is using. To me it is purely a practical matter.

2. We on the right do support research and development. That is stronger than you present. Whether it counts as "advocacy" or not, is semantics.

3. My point about being accused of being emotionally invested, and how it shows a lack of good faith on the part of the LEFT, stands.

 

[Correll]

YOu know that there are tens of thousands of coal miners employed in the US, right now, right? And my question was in response to YOUR question about what to do with CURRENT miners, in the future, as Coal declines.


Are you trying to muddy the water, to confuse the issue? Or just incapable of following your own argument?

There are also tens of thousands of coal miners unemployed as well without the means to help themselves out of the rut they are placed in. And those CURRENT miners are, in the near future, going to be in the same plight. You are deflecting on this one.. You don't have an answer, do you, that fall inside your rump policy without sounding too much like a little social medicine. That would be too close to FDR and what you believe to be Socialism. As time goes on, get used to it, the Community (what other word sounds a lot like that) will need to step up to the plate to prevent places that have industry that has moved on leaving the displaced workers and created more Detroits. Yes, the fall of the factories in Detroit created Detroit's many bad social problems. And now, it's affecting White People. The problem is, if you lift one finger to help those "White People" you are also going to be held to do the same for "Non Whites" as well.. So you stick your head in the sand.

So take a good hard look at Detroit. The Coal Industry is headed the same direction. Now, what do you suggest to help these displaced workers that are now AND in the future. It's not going away.

1. We were talking about current coal miners and what to do as coal declines. Your desire to change the subject is noted and denied.


2. I gave you my answer for current miners.

3. Your use of buzz words, like "Socialism" and "Community" is noted and dismissed.


4. Your race baiting is noted. Very interesting. I have not mentioned race. Is Race the reason you are so committed to seeing these miners to be dependent on the government?

Socialism and Communism has nothing to do with "Race". They are Economic Methods just like Capitalism. You keep trying to plug them into government models. They aren't.

Communism means Communal or Community. There is NO Government. Everyone owns everything equally. It presumes that everyone is honest to a fault. It doesn't take into account that almost every person has a bit of larceny in their blood no matter how well their intentions are. It only works in small groups. Certainly not in large groups.

Socialism is where the Government controls and/or owns the things that affect the greater part of society. For instance, MOST Commercial Airlines are owned by Governments with the exception of the United States. But the United States regulates the Airlines heavily. So the affect is the same. The difference is, the US mixes Socialist controls or regulations with Capitalism so the Airlines make a profit. Russia Airline operates at a loss and has to be propped up as do MOST other Airlines in the world. But you can't remove the Regulations. Otherwise, the short term profits would turn into a large number of flaming plane wrecks and dead. That was how Commercial Airlines started until some semblance of sanity had to be infused. And that sanity came from the Federal Government in the form of the FAA. Yes, the FAA is part of a Socialist Method because without it, you really don't want to be trying to fly the ugly skies.

Capitalism is where the money is made, yes. But if left unchecked, only the biggest and the strongest will prevail. You honestly believe that small business would exist in a pure Capitalist environment? It wouldn't. Take the worst of the lot. Take Microsoft. The literally raped small businesses to build their kingdom. Each and every time a small software writer would make a break through, MS would include that, for a charge, into their windows system. But just as quickly as they could, they would include their own version of the same software for "Free" and the small business would go out of business. One would think that MS was a pioneer but instead, they were pirates with real deep pockets that were above the law. They were so large, you couldn't afford to sue them. You ran out of money long before you got results. When a company gets that large and powerful, only a Government is big enough and rich enough to hold them accountable. Capitalism without Regulation or "Social" limits will end up destroying every other like company sooner or later. MS is listed as a Monopoly and has to operate within a certain set of confines today. It's okay to be a monopoly as long as you don't act like one. But that wasn't always the case for MS.

So we mix Socialism with Capitalism in the United States. It's worked well for over 200 years. And we move the amount of each back and forth as needed. The problem we have right now is, we have corrupted the government to the point where it has zero moral compass. We are at the cusp of needing to retrain workers and create jobs by the only agency that has the clout to do so. And that agency is the Government. And, yes, at first, it's going to be a money losing situation. But, unlike Capitalism that has existed for the last 40 years, the long run is what is important. Even many of the corporate board rooms are starting to discuss this now. The only style Capitalist are starting to return where they do take into consideration social methods. That was lost for the last 40 years where it's been just bottom line and short term profit. Henry Ford I broke out of that model in the 19oughts and was called a Traitor to his Class. And because he was so successful for so many years, it became the model. But that model has been forgotten or misplaced.

You want to stay in the Short Term Bottom Line. We are now making a swing away from that. And it's going to be a learning curve for you. Us Old Hands remember when the long term was the norm. It's coming back.. We remember the days when the Company worked closely with the community. We remember when the Company would hire kids, put them in apprentice jobs and groom them for years of service. You didn't see any signs that says, "Now Hiring, Only Prior Experience may apply".

You are getting ready to see short term Government Investments working with Commercial Companies to bring jobs into areas with large populations and no jobs. Places like Coal towns. For every one coal job that exists, there are at least 4 people out of work in that same area. And if you figure that if every one of those 4 affects 20 others, that means those 4 affects 80 jobs. When you lay off 200 that means you just created 4000 unemployed or underemployed people. And counting the Underemployed People as employed is just spoofing the system. And the system has been gamed for the last 20 or 30 years to the point you think it's normal. It's not normal. It's something that's actually quite new.

When I say Government, I actually mean Communities. And the Government is just part of the community. It's the way it used to be and it worked for more than 200 years until the Greedy, short bottom line slugs got into control. It isn't just about the CEOs and Share Holders. Many large Corporations are doing a rethink in the board room today. It's going to be a long haul and you are going to fight it left and right. In fact, both the extremist left and rights will fight it but the rest of us will be the better for it.

So keep screaming and squirming. But you just as well just enjoy the ride. For the true Conservatives, it's going back to a better day.

1. I'm not trying to "do" anything with socialism or communism or race. YOU mentioned those as buzzwords, not me.


2. I am not advocating for pure capitalism. I am arguing against having government policy being hostile to a large sector of the economy that employs tens of thousands of people, and I am defending those people, basing their political support on the fact that one party and candidate was actively hostile to them. It is insufferable that people are being attacked for not wanting to lose good paying jobs.


3. Retraining has become a buzzword in itself. It is not used to actually retrain people and get them jobs, but to give the appearance of addressing the problem.


4. The problem with America is not lack of moral compass in government, but lack of any moral compass in society as a whole. The former ideas that bound US together, have ALL been under attack over the last 50 or 60 years, religion, patriotism, pride in shared culture or heritage, nationalism, language. That is what the Culture War is about.


5. Capitalism is not returning to considering the community. THey are conforming to the New Order. This is not a renewable, but just a continuing of our decline.

The point is, we DID decline when Capitalists took control completely. They found it was easier and cheaper to buy off the Government than to make a better product, do a better job and have a better company. They learned that investing in buying the Politicians had a higher short term profit. Well, the chickens have come home to roost. It's been reported that the Board Rooms are starting to discuss how to do a better job in their companies including how to do a better job for their employees. Imagine that. Shades of 1908. There is only so many bucks to be had and if the Companies start investing in their most precious resources (the employees) that means there is less money to "Invest" in buying Politicians. I bet that scares the hell out of many of the criminals we now have in Congress and wannabe Presidents.

Again, as a fiscal Conservative, it's a good thing to me. Turn the clock back to the time when the Employer worked with the community and the community looked out after the employer. It brings back the American Dream.

I'm not sure what you are referring to. Businessmen have always had influence in government policy.


You seem to be pointing to a specific event or short period of time, when that influence coalesced behind a certain idea, or policy.


I'm pointing to a particular philosophy of economic management, ie "Free Trade".



What are you pointing to?

 

[Mac1958]

Research is ongoing and fine. But the advocates are emotionally invested in systems that, if used to replace "dirty" energy, would cause serious economic hardship.

...at this very moment. And progress is being slowed by an absolute refusal of the Right to participate in good faith.

Hey, here's an idea: Why don't we get a bunch of smart people from all the across the political spectrum together and....

Okay. I'm just kidding. I know America doesn't do that any more.
.

A recurring response I get, when I point out that, renewable energy is not ready to replace conventional energy at this point in time?


Is to be accused of being emotionally invested in conventional energy.



It is the Left that is not operating in good faith.

I don't think you're emotionally invested in it, I think you're politically/ideologically invested in it.

The Right is clearly not serious about advocating for clean energy. When it happens, hey, it happens. That's not advocacy.
.

1. There is nothing in my ideology or politics that requires or is based on what type of energy society is using. To me it is purely a practical matter.

2. We on the right do support research and development. That is stronger than you present. Whether it counts as "advocacy" or not, is semantics.

3. My point about being accused of being emotionally invested, and how it shows a lack of good faith on the part of the LEFT, stands.

The Left is pushing clean energy, and the right is pushing oil and coal.

You know, "drill baby drill". There is no equilibrium here, at all.
.

 

[Correll]

Research is ongoing and fine. But the advocates are emotionally invested in systems that, if used to replace "dirty" energy, would cause serious economic hardship.

...at this very moment. And progress is being slowed by an absolute refusal of the Right to participate in good faith.

Hey, here's an idea: Why don't we get a bunch of smart people from all the across the political spectrum together and....

Okay. I'm just kidding. I know America doesn't do that any more.
.

A recurring response I get, when I point out that, renewable energy is not ready to replace conventional energy at this point in time?


Is to be accused of being emotionally invested in conventional energy.



It is the Left that is not operating in good faith.

I don't think you're emotionally invested in it, I think you're politically/ideologically invested in it.

The Right is clearly not serious about advocating for clean energy. When it happens, hey, it happens. That's not advocacy.
.

1. There is nothing in my ideology or politics that requires or is based on what type of energy society is using. To me it is purely a practical matter.

2. We on the right do support research and development. That is stronger than you present. Whether it counts as "advocacy" or not, is semantics.

3. My point about being accused of being emotionally invested, and how it shows a lack of good faith on the part of the LEFT, stands.

The Left is pushing clean energy, and the right is pushing oil and coal.

You know, "drill baby drill". There is no equilibrium here, at all.
.

Correct. We want energy that works now, for use, now, while the Left is willing to see price skyrocket, for ideological reasons.


And if you point out any of that, the Left viciously smears you.


No equilibrium at all.

 

[Mac1958]

...at this very moment. And progress is being slowed by an absolute refusal of the Right to participate in good faith.

Hey, here's an idea: Why don't we get a bunch of smart people from all the across the political spectrum together and....

Okay. I'm just kidding. I know America doesn't do that any more.
.

A recurring response I get, when I point out that, renewable energy is not ready to replace conventional energy at this point in time?


Is to be accused of being emotionally invested in conventional energy.



It is the Left that is not operating in good faith.

I don't think you're emotionally invested in it, I think you're politically/ideologically invested in it.

The Right is clearly not serious about advocating for clean energy. When it happens, hey, it happens. That's not advocacy.
.

1. There is nothing in my ideology or politics that requires or is based on what type of energy society is using. To me it is purely a practical matter.

2. We on the right do support research and development. That is stronger than you present. Whether it counts as "advocacy" or not, is semantics.

3. My point about being accused of being emotionally invested, and how it shows a lack of good faith on the part of the LEFT, stands.

The Left is pushing clean energy, and the right is pushing oil and coal.

You know, "drill baby drill". There is no equilibrium here, at all.
.

Correct. We want energy that works now, for use, now, while the Left is willing to see price skyrocket, for ideological reasons.


And if you point out any of that, the Left viciously smears you.


No equilibrium at all.

Well, that's probably as close as we'll come to an agreement.
.

 

[Correll]

A recurring response I get, when I point out that, renewable energy is not ready to replace conventional energy at this point in time?


Is to be accused of being emotionally invested in conventional energy.



It is the Left that is not operating in good faith.

I don't think you're emotionally invested in it, I think you're politically/ideologically invested in it.

The Right is clearly not serious about advocating for clean energy. When it happens, hey, it happens. That's not advocacy.
.

1. There is nothing in my ideology or politics that requires or is based on what type of energy society is using. To me it is purely a practical matter.

2. We on the right do support research and development. That is stronger than you present. Whether it counts as "advocacy" or not, is semantics.

3. My point about being accused of being emotionally invested, and how it shows a lack of good faith on the part of the LEFT, stands.

The Left is pushing clean energy, and the right is pushing oil and coal.

You know, "drill baby drill". There is no equilibrium here, at all.
.

Correct. We want energy that works now, for use, now, while the Left is willing to see price skyrocket, for ideological reasons.


And if you point out any of that, the Left viciously smears you.


No equilibrium at all.

Well, that's probably as close as we'll come to an agreement.
.

Something else we might be able to agree on.


So, someday, the tech will come to the point that "alternative energy" is competitive, to conventional energy, and conservatives will start supporting it, because it is better.



And liberals, will gloat that they finally won on the issue. And we cons will mass vomit in disgust.