Trump has no plan: China will win the trade war and wean off American technology in 7 years

[Mac1958]

Trump has no plan A, B or any other plan against China as the trade war is backfiring and will slowly envelop US technology manufacturers.

Trump promised us that "trade wars are easy to win". He thought he could just do his usual carnival barker routine and steamroll the Chinese, because he'll always be controlled by his narcissistic personality disorder.

The Chinese aren't going to be intimidated by a cartoonish man-child.

Still, I very much hope you're wrong. Maybe the people actually doing the negotiating for us actually know what they're doing. That's still entirely possible.
.

What is your proposal? We should roll over and just forget any trade negotiation with China? Go back to the status quo? At some point one of our Presidents had to grow a pair and make China abide by the same rules as others in the WTO. Now is the time as our economy is stronger than them and we can hold out longer than they can. I would advise Trump to get some of the other countries with whom he has already reached trade deals, to join forces with the US against China. Unfortuantely, many of those countries are run by not-guts leftists, so not sure that is plausible at this point. China WILL give in if Trump is re-elected. They may save face in some way, but make not mistake about it...the US will be in better shape afterwards than it was prior to the negotiations.

I have to keep saying this, I guess. I get it on every topic.

Our choice is not to either (a) "roll over and just forget any trade negotiation with China", or (b) act like Trump acts.

There are other ways to approach complex issues than to beat on them with a stick and appear to be unstable and immature.

I can not make it any more simple or clear than that.
.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

The American Chamber of Commerce in Shanghai says its latest member survey shows many U.S. businesses in China are getting hurt by tariffs, prompting them to move more quickly away from the Asian country

And so what's to stop those globalists from simply setting shops up at the next 3rd world sweatshop?

Merely a decade after Clinton's nafta , Mexico was loosing out to India & Pakistan

sorry Cell, that bait/switch is old news

~S~

/—-/ Nothing is stopping them, but it is more costly and inconvenient to do do, otherwise they would be doing it now.

They are doing it now, operations are being moved to Vietnam and Bangladesh...and China is investing in both counties helping them to be able to handle the increased work...thus profiting from the move.

 

[Mac1958]

We could (a) gain significantly more control over our trade situation and (b) address our immigration and drug issues with one plan:

Band Aids, Borders, Burritos & Bejing

 

[Denizen]

Trump has no plan A, B or any other plan against China as the trade war is backfiring and will slowly envelop US technology manufacturers.

Trump promised us that "trade wars are easy to win". He thought he could just do his usual carnival barker routine and steamroll the Chinese, because he'll always be controlled by his narcissistic personality disorder.

The Chinese aren't going to be intimidated by a cartoonish man-child.

Still, I very much hope you're wrong. Maybe the people actually doing the negotiating for us actually know what they're doing. That's still entirely possible.
.

The relationship is changed forever. It will never go back.

China is already working on displacing American imports, including agriculture.

China says U.S. farmers may never regain market share lost in trade war

China says U.S. farmers may never regain market share lost in trade war
By HE HUIFENG | SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST 08/11/2018 02:10 PM EDT
Aug. 11, 2018

China can easily find other countries to buy agricultural goods from instead of the U.S., its vice agriculture minister said, warning that American farmers could permanently lose their share of the Chinese market as a result of the trade war.

“Many countries have the willingness and they totally have the capacity to take over the market share the U.S. is enjoying in China. If other countries become reliable suppliers for China, it will be very difficult for the U.S. to regain the market,” Han Jun told official Xinhua news agency in an interview on Friday.
He also warned that American farmers could lose the position in the Chinese market they have spent several decades building up. Han said they may not be able to make up the losses brought by retaliatory tariffs, even with the White House’s planned $12 billion aid package for farmers caught in the dispute.

He said Beijing had imposed duties on 90 percent of the agricultural goods the country imports from the United States since the trade war kicked off at the start of last month, with limited impact on China.

“Levying additional tariffs will cause a great decrease in exports of U.S. agricultural products to China,” Han said. “But the impact on China is very limited, due to the diversified import sources.”

China and the U.S. have been locked in a tit-for-tat trade war since early last month. Beijing unveiled its latest retaliatory tariffs on $16 billion of American goods on Wednesday, matching Washington’s move to slap 25 percent duties on the same value of Chinese imports.

The vice agriculture minister also said Chinese companies had “basically stopped” importing soybeans from U.S. farmers since July 6 and would deal with the impact by finding alternative ingredients for animal feeds.

China is the world’s biggest importer of soybeans, which it uses to make cooking oil, biodiesel and the meal to feed livestock.
Han said the country was expecting soybean imports from the U.S. to drop dramatically this year and that preparations had already been made. “China is totally able to handle the shortfall created by a drop in American soybean imports,” Han told Xinhua.

China has been buying more soybeans from other countries and promoting alternatives to soybeans to feed livestock, as well as pushing farmers to plant more domestic crops. Before the trade war erupted, China was on track to import 300 million tons of soybeans from the United States this year.
The country imported about $24.1 billion of agricultural products from the United States last year, accounting for 19 percent of its total farm imports worth some $125.86 billion, according to the Ministry of Agriculture and Rural Affairs.

Han said that starting from July 6, Beijing had imposed 25 percent tariffs on 517 types of American agricultural products — including nuts, soybeans, cotton, fruit and meat. Their combined value last year was about $21 billion, he said.
He also warned that additional duties on American agricultural goods were in the pipeline.

Beijing has said it is ready to impose tariffs on $60 billion of American products if President Donald Trump — who has accused China of amassing a huge trade surplus through unfair trade practices — goes ahead with plans to slap extra duties on $200 billion of Chinese goods.
The next list will include 387 types of agricultural products – including coffee, vegetables and vegetable oils – which last year had a total value of around $2.9 billion.

As a result, almost all agricultural products China buys from the U.S. will face additional tariffs once Beijing’s latest countermeasures take effect, Han said.

The European Union would not be able to make up the losses for U.S. soybean producers, who will be left with a huge surplus without China buying the grain from them, according to Han. He said although the EU had agreed to import more soybeans from America, it would only buy 13 million to 14 million tons of soybeans a year over the next decade, according to estimates — compared with the more than 30 million tons of the grain China bought from the U.S. last year.

But Han admitted that Washington’s tariffs would impact China’s fruit, vegetable and seafood producers because it would not be easy for them to find alternative export destinations in the short term. He said Beijing would help exporters find other countries to sell their products to and try to boost domestic consumption instead, to minimize the impact of the tariffs.

The United States was the third largest market for Chinese fruit and fifth largest for vegetables last year, with the exports valued at a combined $1.84 billion. ...

Trump has no plan A, B or any other plan against China as the trade war is backfiring and will slowly envelop US technology manufacturers.

Trump promised us that "trade wars are easy to win". He thought he could just do his usual carnival barker routine and steamroll the Chinese, because he'll always be controlled by his narcissistic personality disorder.

The Chinese aren't going to be intimidated by a cartoonish man-child.

Still, I very much hope you're wrong. Maybe the people actually doing the negotiating for us actually know what they're doing. That's still entirely possible.
.

What is your proposal? We should roll over and just forget any trade negotiation with China? Go back to the status quo? At some point one of our Presidents had to grow a pair and make China abide by the same rules as others in the WTO. Now is the time as our economy is stronger than them and we can hold out longer than they can. I would advise Trump to get some of the other countries with whom he has already reached trade deals, to join forces with the US against China. Unfortuantely, many of those countries are run by not-guts leftists, so not sure that is plausible at this point. China WILL give in if Trump is re-elected. They may save face in some way, but make not mistake about it...the US will be in better shape afterwards than it was prior to the negotiations.

The US proletariat is suffering from Trump's trade war. Economic theory tells us that the US will not be better off with tariffs, before or after the trade war.

"A Washington Post-ABC News poll released Tuesday found that 60% of Americans were “concerned” that the trade war with China will raise the prices of things they buy, and that the same percentage thought a recession was coming within a year. Forty-three percent of respondents said they thought Trump’s trade and economic policies increased the likelihood of a recession, as opposed to 16% who thought the opposite."

 

[Mac1958]

Trump has no plan A, B or any other plan against China as the trade war is backfiring and will slowly envelop US technology manufacturers.

Trump promised us that "trade wars are easy to win". He thought he could just do his usual carnival barker routine and steamroll the Chinese, because he'll always be controlled by his narcissistic personality disorder.

The Chinese aren't going to be intimidated by a cartoonish man-child.

Still, I very much hope you're wrong. Maybe the people actually doing the negotiating for us actually know what they're doing. That's still entirely possible.
.

The relationship is changed forever. It will never go back.

China is already working on displacing American imports, including agriculture.

China says U.S. farmers may never regain market share lost in trade war

China says U.S. farmers may never regain market share lost in trade war
By HE HUIFENG | SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST 08/11/2018 02:10 PM EDT
Aug. 11, 2018

China can easily find other countries to buy agricultural goods from instead of the U.S., its vice agriculture minister said, warning that American farmers could permanently lose their share of the Chinese market as a result of the trade war.

“Many countries have the willingness and they totally have the capacity to take over the market share the U.S. is enjoying in China. If other countries become reliable suppliers for China, it will be very difficult for the U.S. to regain the market,” Han Jun told official Xinhua news agency in an interview on Friday.
He also warned that American farmers could lose the position in the Chinese market they have spent several decades building up. Han said they may not be able to make up the losses brought by retaliatory tariffs, even with the White House’s planned $12 billion aid package for farmers caught in the dispute.

He said Beijing had imposed duties on 90 percent of the agricultural goods the country imports from the United States since the trade war kicked off at the start of last month, with limited impact on China.

“Levying additional tariffs will cause a great decrease in exports of U.S. agricultural products to China,” Han said. “But the impact on China is very limited, due to the diversified import sources.”

China and the U.S. have been locked in a tit-for-tat trade war since early last month. Beijing unveiled its latest retaliatory tariffs on $16 billion of American goods on Wednesday, matching Washington’s move to slap 25 percent duties on the same value of Chinese imports.

The vice agriculture minister also said Chinese companies had “basically stopped” importing soybeans from U.S. farmers since July 6 and would deal with the impact by finding alternative ingredients for animal feeds.

China is the world’s biggest importer of soybeans, which it uses to make cooking oil, biodiesel and the meal to feed livestock.
Han said the country was expecting soybean imports from the U.S. to drop dramatically this year and that preparations had already been made. “China is totally able to handle the shortfall created by a drop in American soybean imports,” Han told Xinhua.

China has been buying more soybeans from other countries and promoting alternatives to soybeans to feed livestock, as well as pushing farmers to plant more domestic crops. Before the trade war erupted, China was on track to import 300 million tons of soybeans from the United States this year.
The country imported about $24.1 billion of agricultural products from the United States last year, accounting for 19 percent of its total farm imports worth some $125.86 billion, according to the Ministry of Agriculture and Rural Affairs.

Han said that starting from July 6, Beijing had imposed 25 percent tariffs on 517 types of American agricultural products — including nuts, soybeans, cotton, fruit and meat. Their combined value last year was about $21 billion, he said.
He also warned that additional duties on American agricultural goods were in the pipeline.

Beijing has said it is ready to impose tariffs on $60 billion of American products if President Donald Trump — who has accused China of amassing a huge trade surplus through unfair trade practices — goes ahead with plans to slap extra duties on $200 billion of Chinese goods.
The next list will include 387 types of agricultural products – including coffee, vegetables and vegetable oils – which last year had a total value of around $2.9 billion.

As a result, almost all agricultural products China buys from the U.S. will face additional tariffs once Beijing’s latest countermeasures take effect, Han said.

The European Union would not be able to make up the losses for U.S. soybean producers, who will be left with a huge surplus without China buying the grain from them, according to Han. He said although the EU had agreed to import more soybeans from America, it would only buy 13 million to 14 million tons of soybeans a year over the next decade, according to estimates — compared with the more than 30 million tons of the grain China bought from the U.S. last year.

But Han admitted that Washington’s tariffs would impact China’s fruit, vegetable and seafood producers because it would not be easy for them to find alternative export destinations in the short term. He said Beijing would help exporters find other countries to sell their products to and try to boost domestic consumption instead, to minimize the impact of the tariffs.

The United States was the third largest market for Chinese fruit and fifth largest for vegetables last year, with the exports valued at a combined $1.84 billion. ...

Trump has no plan A, B or any other plan against China as the trade war is backfiring and will slowly envelop US technology manufacturers.

Trump promised us that "trade wars are easy to win". He thought he could just do his usual carnival barker routine and steamroll the Chinese, because he'll always be controlled by his narcissistic personality disorder.

The Chinese aren't going to be intimidated by a cartoonish man-child.

Still, I very much hope you're wrong. Maybe the people actually doing the negotiating for us actually know what they're doing. That's still entirely possible.
.

What is your proposal? We should roll over and just forget any trade negotiation with China? Go back to the status quo? At some point one of our Presidents had to grow a pair and make China abide by the same rules as others in the WTO. Now is the time as our economy is stronger than them and we can hold out longer than they can. I would advise Trump to get some of the other countries with whom he has already reached trade deals, to join forces with the US against China. Unfortuantely, many of those countries are run by not-guts leftists, so not sure that is plausible at this point. China WILL give in if Trump is re-elected. They may save face in some way, but make not mistake about it...the US will be in better shape afterwards than it was prior to the negotiations.

The US proletariat is suffering from Trump's trade war. Economic theory tells us that the US will not be better off with tariffs, before or after the trade war.

"A Washington Post-ABC News poll released Tuesday found that 60% of Americans were “concerned” that the trade war with China will raise the prices of things they buy, and that the same percentage thought a recession was coming within a year. Forty-three percent of respondents said they thought Trump’s trade and economic policies increased the likelihood of a recession, as opposed to 16% who thought the opposite."

Could be. But it's also possible that China is holding out for/hoping for a more positive result in 2020.

But yeah, global trade is changing rapidly, so that makes this tougher.
.

 

[Denizen]

The American Chamber of Commerce in Shanghai says its latest member survey shows many U.S. businesses in China are getting hurt by tariffs, prompting them to move more quickly away from the Asian country

And so what's to stop those globalists from simply setting shops up at the next 3rd world sweatshop?

Merely a decade after Clinton's nafta , Mexico was loosing out to India & Pakistan

sorry Cell, that bait/switch is old news

~S~

Nothing stops them. We all know that many of the jobs and investment will go to other countries...countries that we either already have or will get better trade deals with. The US wins whether businesses invest back into the US or to another country other than China. Pretty simply really.

That's a very simplistic view which doesn't reflect reality.

If other countries were so favorable to US manufacturing, US manufacturing would already be in those countries.

The Chinese set up supply chains which facilitated efficient and rapid manufacturing. These supply chains don't already exist in other countries and it may take many years to replicate them, and the prices of the supplies are likely to be considerably higher.

 

[DBA]

The Chinese aren't going to be intimidated by a cartoonish man-child.

well what card does he really have to play?
we (America) constitute far too little economically for the Chinese to be concerned

He has limited options, but that didn't stop him from doing this.

He did what he always does: Identified a complicated problem and started beating on it with a stick.

The best thing we could do is separate the intellectual theft issue from the tariffs issue. We might be able to make some progress on tariffs, and that would take some pressure off. Markets would love that.
.

I don't necessarily disagree that we could seperate the intellectual property theft from the other things. China pretty much has to steal our stuff...they know that and one reason why they backed out when enforcement of intellectual property theft was proposed. I think Democrats know this and which is why many are pushing Trump to continue his war with China, including intellectual property theft. They don't want a win for Trump, even if it means sacrificing our markets and economy. On the flip side, we do need to find a way to stop intellectual property theft and there must be some method of enforcement.

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

Every time crazed, America hating lunatics on the Left post another "hate America" thread like this one, a few more former Left wingers jump ship and vote for Trump.

Thanks Denzien and other Flaming snowflakes......with every post you're helping to Make America Great Again !!

Dems admit they helped GOP candidates sweep North Carolina special elections
Dems admit Trump helped GOP candidates sweep North Carolina special elections

Trump-shaped 9th Circuit hands White House major win on asylum policy
Trump-shaped 9th Circuit hands White House major win on asylum policy

Keep up the good work Denzien, CandyCorn, Golfing Gator, mac, cnm, sparky and all you heretics !!!

 

[WillPower]

And so what's to stop those globalists from simply setting shops up at the next 3rd world sweatshop?

Merely a decade after Clinton's nafta , Mexico was loosing out to India & Pakistan

sorry Cell, that bait/switch is old news

~S~

No, the "old news" is the globalists have now had a decade of getting their patents and formulas stolen by the chi-coms and have had enough of it. What once looked live a slave-wage paradise no longer does when small tariffs throw their whole scheme into chaos. Let them set up sweat shops in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos...who cares? If you'd ever been to any of those countries you'd know they HATE china and will do handstands to have our junk manufacturing. Another benefit is they have no illusions of grandeur about replacing us as top dog. With china on it's ass, maybe we won't need to spend $700B a year on defense. BTW, "loosing" ain't how you spell "losing".

 

[TRFjr]

Trump has no plan A, B or any other plan against China as the trade war is backfiring and will slowly envelop US technology manufacturers.

Huawei has already developed its own chips and software for its mobile phones dumping US chips and Google Android.

Donald Trump's attempt to obstruct China's technology and economic advance is backfiring as China is accelerating its technology evolution and is planning to become a leading nation in technology by 2030.

Advances come rapidly in China. The time between concept and market introduction of products is much shorter than the USA.

Amazing examples of tech innovation in China

... China is adding 9,500 electric buses - the equivalent of a London fleet - to its roads every five weeks according to a report from Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

It makes China far and away the leader in electronic public transit - with 99 percent of the world's 385,000 electric buses operating in the country. ...

China will win the trade war and wean off American technology in 7 years, strategist says

China will win the trade war and wean off American technology in 7 years, strategist says
PUBLISHED TUE, SEP 10 2019 3:22 AM EDTUPDATED 2 HOURS AGO
Stella Soon

China will win the trade war with the U.S., and eventually wean itself off its reliance on American technology, a strategist told CNBC on Monday.

“China will never trust the United States again, and it will achieve its technology independence within seven years,” David Roche, Independent Strategy’s president and global strategist, told CNBC’s “Squawk Box.”
China has traditionally been reliant on U.S. suppliers for key tech components such as chips and software, as well as modems and jet engines, but recent developments in the two countries’ protracted trade war have strained those ties and affected businesses from both sides.
It’s not just about trade. It’s about technology, it’s about the free flow of ideas, it is rapidly becoming about the free flow of individuals ... So it’s a really wide conflict, and it’s simply not gonna go away.
David Roche

In May, Chinese tech giant Huawei was placed on a U.S. blacklist, restricting the firm from purchasing American-made chips and software unless they got permission to do so. Some American mobile networks also use Huawei gear, while other U.S. companies have said their revenue will be affected by the blacklist.
Alphabet’s Google also halted all business activity with Huawei, a move that means future Huawei phones will no longer come installed with Google’s Android operating system.

Amid those tensions, China is reportedly surveying its tech companies to gauge their exposure to American suppliers, and also ramping up development in its own tech industry.

For instance, it is developing its own chip industry. Under the government-led Made in China 2025 initiative, the country aims to produce 40% of its semiconductors by 2020, and 70% by 2025.

Currently, only 16% of the semiconductors used in China are produced domestically, according to a February report from the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Just half of those are made by Chinese firms.
Roche predicted that the end of the trade war is not in sight, though talks are slated to resume in October.
That’s because the U.S.-China trade war isn’t about trade alone, he said.

“It is a conflict between a rising global power and a declining global power ... It’s not just about trade. It’s about technology, it’s about the free flow of ideas, it is rapidly becoming about the free flow of individuals,” Roche said.
“So it’s a really wide conflict, and it’s simply not gonna go away,” he concluded.

Amazing examples of tech innovation in China

In June 2016, Chinese president Xi Jinping outlined his vision for China to become the leading player in science and technology globally. Speaking at the national congress of the China Association for Science and Technology, he said the country must be on course to being a leading innovator worldwide by 2030.
According to a post on the Chinese Academy of Science website, Xi said: "Great scientific and technological capacity is a must for China to be strong and for people's lives to improve," adding that the country and even humankind "won't do without innovation, nor will it do if the innovation is carried out slowly."
Fast forward to 2019 and it's clear that the country is making technology innovation a major, major priority - having become a leader in quantum research, boldly challenging the USA in the supercomputer arms race, and creating its own successful space programmes. Zhejiang province where Alibaba is located just pledged a $17 billion commitment to driving technology over the next five years. And the country's startups scene is thriving.
Here are just some of the most amazing projects that have emerged from China in recent years:

this will devastate Chinas companies especially their Tech companies
Huawia the massive Chinese cell phone company is likely to go under within a year after the sanctions kick in

Trumps imposed sanctions stipulates that no American based company can now do business with Huawei which includes Google or Apple
and many others there for no Google or Apple based program will be supported by Huawei phones
A phone from which you cant use Google play Google G-mail Google search Google maps and all the other google apps used by every smartphone worldwide
an android phone with no google support is a worthless phone and this just doesn't affect Huawei phones in America but worldwide

that also goes the same for Micro Soft another American based company imagine a computer manufacturer that is barred for using windows or any windows based programming how long will that company last

Chinese campanies need America more the America needs chinesse comapnies the ban alone form having access to American based software technology would but electronic device manufactures out of business do you think the Chinese economy could withstand their electronic companies suddenly all become worthless worldwide?

 

[Mac1958]

The Chinese aren't going to be intimidated by a cartoonish man-child.

well what card does he really have to play?
we (America) constitute far too little economically for the Chinese to be concerned

He has limited options, but that didn't stop him from doing this.

He did what he always does: Identified a complicated problem and started beating on it with a stick.

The best thing we could do is separate the intellectual theft issue from the tariffs issue. We might be able to make some progress on tariffs, and that would take some pressure off. Markets would love that.
.

I don't necessarily disagree that we could seperate the intellectual property theft from the other things. China pretty much has to steal our stuff...they know that and one reason why they backed out when enforcement of intellectual property theft was proposed. I think Democrats know this and which is why many are pushing Trump to continue his war with China, including intellectual property theft. They don't want a win for Trump, even if it means sacrificing our markets and economy. On the flip side, we do need to find a way to stop intellectual property theft and there must be some method of enforcement.

Agreed, but I have no idea how the hell that happens. We absolutely have to do everything we can on that issue, but China is now too big a player for us to threaten little penalties. I dunno.
.

 

[Denizen]

Trump has no plan A, B or any other plan against China as the trade war is backfiring and will slowly envelop US technology manufacturers.

Trump promised us that "trade wars are easy to win". He thought he could just do his usual carnival barker routine and steamroll the Chinese, because he'll always be controlled by his narcissistic personality disorder.

The Chinese aren't going to be intimidated by a cartoonish man-child.

Still, I very much hope you're wrong. Maybe the people actually doing the negotiating for us actually know what they're doing. That's still entirely possible.
.

What is your proposal? We should roll over and just forget any trade negotiation with China? Go back to the status quo? At some point one of our Presidents had to grow a pair and make China abide by the same rules as others in the WTO. Now is the time as our economy is stronger than them and we can hold out longer than they can. I would advise Trump to get some of the other countries with whom he has already reached trade deals, to join forces with the US against China. Unfortuantely, many of those countries are run by not-guts leftists, so not sure that is plausible at this point. China WILL give in if Trump is re-elected. They may save face in some way, but make not mistake about it...the US will be in better shape afterwards than it was prior to the negotiations.

I have to keep saying this, I guess. I get it on every topic.

Our choice is not to either (a) "roll over and just forget any trade negotiation with China", or (b) act like Trump acts.

There are other ways to approach complex issues than to beat on them with a stick and appear to be unstable and immature.

I can not make it any more simple or clear than that.
.

The problem with Trump's approach is that Donald Trump is seeking an instant outcome of Chinese capitulation. It didn't happen.

So now the trade war goes into different phases which Trump has no plan for.

This trade war is not about trade. It is about obstructing the technological and economic progression of China which was heading to world dominance in economic and political influence. The USA doesn't want world domination by China.

 

[WillPower]

I don't necessarily disagree that we could seperate the intellectual property theft from the other things. China pretty much has to steal our stuff...they know that and one reason why they backed out when enforcement of intellectual property theft was proposed. I think Democrats know this and which is why many are pushing Trump to continue his war with China, including intellectual property theft. They don't want a win for Trump, even if it means sacrificing our markets and economy. On the flip side, we do need to find a way to stop intellectual property theft and there must be some method of enforcement.

How you stop it is to uncouple from China and watch them have a civil war. They are in deep doodoo financially and now the world knows if you stand up to them, they'll beg for mercy. What will win the trade wars throughout asia is good old Coca Cola. Once people get a taste of the American way of life, they won't go back to squatting in a mud hut and burning dried shit for fuel. The bloom is off china's rose...they had their time and now it's back to the communes for them unless they decide to live free of tyranny.

 

[DBA]

Trump has no plan A, B or any other plan against China as the trade war is backfiring and will slowly envelop US technology manufacturers.

Trump promised us that "trade wars are easy to win". He thought he could just do his usual carnival barker routine and steamroll the Chinese, because he'll always be controlled by his narcissistic personality disorder.

The Chinese aren't going to be intimidated by a cartoonish man-child.

Still, I very much hope you're wrong. Maybe the people actually doing the negotiating for us actually know what they're doing. That's still entirely possible.
.

The relationship is changed forever. It will never go back.

China is already working on displacing American imports, including agriculture.

China says U.S. farmers may never regain market share lost in trade war

China says U.S. farmers may never regain market share lost in trade war
By HE HUIFENG | SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST 08/11/2018 02:10 PM EDT
Aug. 11, 2018

China can easily find other countries to buy agricultural goods from instead of the U.S., its vice agriculture minister said, warning that American farmers could permanently lose their share of the Chinese market as a result of the trade war.

“Many countries have the willingness and they totally have the capacity to take over the market share the U.S. is enjoying in China. If other countries become reliable suppliers for China, it will be very difficult for the U.S. to regain the market,” Han Jun told official Xinhua news agency in an interview on Friday.
He also warned that American farmers could lose the position in the Chinese market they have spent several decades building up. Han said they may not be able to make up the losses brought by retaliatory tariffs, even with the White House’s planned $12 billion aid package for farmers caught in the dispute.

He said Beijing had imposed duties on 90 percent of the agricultural goods the country imports from the United States since the trade war kicked off at the start of last month, with limited impact on China.

“Levying additional tariffs will cause a great decrease in exports of U.S. agricultural products to China,” Han said. “But the impact on China is very limited, due to the diversified import sources.”

China and the U.S. have been locked in a tit-for-tat trade war since early last month. Beijing unveiled its latest retaliatory tariffs on $16 billion of American goods on Wednesday, matching Washington’s move to slap 25 percent duties on the same value of Chinese imports.

The vice agriculture minister also said Chinese companies had “basically stopped” importing soybeans from U.S. farmers since July 6 and would deal with the impact by finding alternative ingredients for animal feeds.

China is the world’s biggest importer of soybeans, which it uses to make cooking oil, biodiesel and the meal to feed livestock.
Han said the country was expecting soybean imports from the U.S. to drop dramatically this year and that preparations had already been made. “China is totally able to handle the shortfall created by a drop in American soybean imports,” Han told Xinhua.

China has been buying more soybeans from other countries and promoting alternatives to soybeans to feed livestock, as well as pushing farmers to plant more domestic crops. Before the trade war erupted, China was on track to import 300 million tons of soybeans from the United States this year.
The country imported about $24.1 billion of agricultural products from the United States last year, accounting for 19 percent of its total farm imports worth some $125.86 billion, according to the Ministry of Agriculture and Rural Affairs.

Han said that starting from July 6, Beijing had imposed 25 percent tariffs on 517 types of American agricultural products — including nuts, soybeans, cotton, fruit and meat. Their combined value last year was about $21 billion, he said.
He also warned that additional duties on American agricultural goods were in the pipeline.

Beijing has said it is ready to impose tariffs on $60 billion of American products if President Donald Trump — who has accused China of amassing a huge trade surplus through unfair trade practices — goes ahead with plans to slap extra duties on $200 billion of Chinese goods.
The next list will include 387 types of agricultural products – including coffee, vegetables and vegetable oils – which last year had a total value of around $2.9 billion.

As a result, almost all agricultural products China buys from the U.S. will face additional tariffs once Beijing’s latest countermeasures take effect, Han said.

The European Union would not be able to make up the losses for U.S. soybean producers, who will be left with a huge surplus without China buying the grain from them, according to Han. He said although the EU had agreed to import more soybeans from America, it would only buy 13 million to 14 million tons of soybeans a year over the next decade, according to estimates — compared with the more than 30 million tons of the grain China bought from the U.S. last year.

But Han admitted that Washington’s tariffs would impact China’s fruit, vegetable and seafood producers because it would not be easy for them to find alternative export destinations in the short term. He said Beijing would help exporters find other countries to sell their products to and try to boost domestic consumption instead, to minimize the impact of the tariffs.

The United States was the third largest market for Chinese fruit and fifth largest for vegetables last year, with the exports valued at a combined $1.84 billion. ...

Trump has no plan A, B or any other plan against China as the trade war is backfiring and will slowly envelop US technology manufacturers.

Trump promised us that "trade wars are easy to win". He thought he could just do his usual carnival barker routine and steamroll the Chinese, because he'll always be controlled by his narcissistic personality disorder.

The Chinese aren't going to be intimidated by a cartoonish man-child.

Still, I very much hope you're wrong. Maybe the people actually doing the negotiating for us actually know what they're doing. That's still entirely possible.
.

What is your proposal? We should roll over and just forget any trade negotiation with China? Go back to the status quo? At some point one of our Presidents had to grow a pair and make China abide by the same rules as others in the WTO. Now is the time as our economy is stronger than them and we can hold out longer than they can. I would advise Trump to get some of the other countries with whom he has already reached trade deals, to join forces with the US against China. Unfortuantely, many of those countries are run by not-guts leftists, so not sure that is plausible at this point. China WILL give in if Trump is re-elected. They may save face in some way, but make not mistake about it...the US will be in better shape afterwards than it was prior to the negotiations.

The US proletariat is suffering from Trump's trade war. Economic theory tells us that the US will not be better off with tariffs, before or after the trade war.

"A Washington Post-ABC News poll released Tuesday found that 60% of Americans were “concerned” that the trade war with China will raise the prices of things they buy, and that the same percentage thought a recession was coming within a year. Forty-three percent of respondents said they thought Trump’s trade and economic policies increased the likelihood of a recession, as opposed to 16% who thought the opposite."

Many Americans are just ignorant. The mainstream media pushes the narrative of a recesssion and many who just don't understand buy it. It is a self-fullfilling prophecy. The economic numbers are very good, especially considering how poorly the rest of the world is doing. China's economy is fundamentally in MUCH worse shape than ours. Compared to the rest of the world, our economy is flourishing. I don't think the average American has a clue about the effects of devaluing currency, the causes of inverted yield curves nor the effect that negative interest rates in Europe have on our economy.

 

[DBA]

I don't necessarily disagree that we could seperate the intellectual property theft from the other things. China pretty much has to steal our stuff...they know that and one reason why they backed out when enforcement of intellectual property theft was proposed. I think Democrats know this and which is why many are pushing Trump to continue his war with China, including intellectual property theft. They don't want a win for Trump, even if it means sacrificing our markets and economy. On the flip side, we do need to find a way to stop intellectual property theft and there must be some method of enforcement.

How you stop it is to uncouple from China and watch them have a civil war. They are in deep doodoo financially and now that the world knows if you stand up to them, they'll beg for mercy. What will win the trade wars throughout asia is good old Coca Cola. Once people get a taste of the American way of life, they won't go back to squatting in a mud hut and burning dried shit for fuel. The bloom is off china's rose...they had their time and now it's back to the communes for them unless they decide to live free of tyranny.

I agree. China's people have become more Westernized to the extent they drive cars vs ride bicycles. Take those cars away and watch the chaos that ensues. They cannot hold out long before they have a major revolt from their people, something they have not had to worry about in the past.

 

[Denizen]

I don't necessarily disagree that we could seperate the intellectual property theft from the other things. China pretty much has to steal our stuff...they know that and one reason why they backed out when enforcement of intellectual property theft was proposed. I think Democrats know this and which is why many are pushing Trump to continue his war with China, including intellectual property theft. They don't want a win for Trump, even if it means sacrificing our markets and economy. On the flip side, we do need to find a way to stop intellectual property theft and there must be some method of enforcement.

How you stop it is to uncouple from China and watch them have a civil war. They are in deep doodoo financially and now the world knows if you stand up to them, they'll beg for mercy. What will win the trade wars throughout asia is good old Coca Cola. Once people get a taste of the American way of life, they won't go back to squatting in a mud hut and burning dried shit for fuel. The bloom is off china's rose...they had their time and now it's back to the communes for them unless they decide to live free of tyranny.

Perhaps they will surrender and grow orange hair as an export commodity for American wig manufacturers, or there will be hell toupee.

 

[Mac1958]

I also wonder if there might be a point at which China is willing to drop the hammer and get punitive by dumping a trillion or so in Treasuries.

While that would teach us a lesson (well, maybe), it would be a very, very bad thing.

 

[sparky]

On the flip side, we do need to find a way to stop intellectual property theft and there must be some method of enforcement.

Let them set up sweat shops in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos...who cares?

Then we're really talkin' a level playing field on a global scale

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Leave Globalists no place to hide, and Tariff policies become Global ,which might have some clout juxtaposed to intellectual property theft, etc

short of this is merely a a dog/pony show

~S~

 

[Denizen]

Trump has no plan A, B or any other plan against China as the trade war is backfiring and will slowly envelop US technology manufacturers.

Trump promised us that "trade wars are easy to win". He thought he could just do his usual carnival barker routine and steamroll the Chinese, because he'll always be controlled by his narcissistic personality disorder.

The Chinese aren't going to be intimidated by a cartoonish man-child.

Still, I very much hope you're wrong. Maybe the people actually doing the negotiating for us actually know what they're doing. That's still entirely possible.
.

The relationship is changed forever. It will never go back.

China is already working on displacing American imports, including agriculture.

China says U.S. farmers may never regain market share lost in trade war

China says U.S. farmers may never regain market share lost in trade war
By HE HUIFENG | SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST 08/11/2018 02:10 PM EDT
Aug. 11, 2018

China can easily find other countries to buy agricultural goods from instead of the U.S., its vice agriculture minister said, warning that American farmers could permanently lose their share of the Chinese market as a result of the trade war.

“Many countries have the willingness and they totally have the capacity to take over the market share the U.S. is enjoying in China. If other countries become reliable suppliers for China, it will be very difficult for the U.S. to regain the market,” Han Jun told official Xinhua news agency in an interview on Friday.
He also warned that American farmers could lose the position in the Chinese market they have spent several decades building up. Han said they may not be able to make up the losses brought by retaliatory tariffs, even with the White House’s planned $12 billion aid package for farmers caught in the dispute.

He said Beijing had imposed duties on 90 percent of the agricultural goods the country imports from the United States since the trade war kicked off at the start of last month, with limited impact on China.

“Levying additional tariffs will cause a great decrease in exports of U.S. agricultural products to China,” Han said. “But the impact on China is very limited, due to the diversified import sources.”

China and the U.S. have been locked in a tit-for-tat trade war since early last month. Beijing unveiled its latest retaliatory tariffs on $16 billion of American goods on Wednesday, matching Washington’s move to slap 25 percent duties on the same value of Chinese imports.

The vice agriculture minister also said Chinese companies had “basically stopped” importing soybeans from U.S. farmers since July 6 and would deal with the impact by finding alternative ingredients for animal feeds.

China is the world’s biggest importer of soybeans, which it uses to make cooking oil, biodiesel and the meal to feed livestock.
Han said the country was expecting soybean imports from the U.S. to drop dramatically this year and that preparations had already been made. “China is totally able to handle the shortfall created by a drop in American soybean imports,” Han told Xinhua.

China has been buying more soybeans from other countries and promoting alternatives to soybeans to feed livestock, as well as pushing farmers to plant more domestic crops. Before the trade war erupted, China was on track to import 300 million tons of soybeans from the United States this year.
The country imported about $24.1 billion of agricultural products from the United States last year, accounting for 19 percent of its total farm imports worth some $125.86 billion, according to the Ministry of Agriculture and Rural Affairs.

Han said that starting from July 6, Beijing had imposed 25 percent tariffs on 517 types of American agricultural products — including nuts, soybeans, cotton, fruit and meat. Their combined value last year was about $21 billion, he said.
He also warned that additional duties on American agricultural goods were in the pipeline.

Beijing has said it is ready to impose tariffs on $60 billion of American products if President Donald Trump — who has accused China of amassing a huge trade surplus through unfair trade practices — goes ahead with plans to slap extra duties on $200 billion of Chinese goods.
The next list will include 387 types of agricultural products – including coffee, vegetables and vegetable oils – which last year had a total value of around $2.9 billion.

As a result, almost all agricultural products China buys from the U.S. will face additional tariffs once Beijing’s latest countermeasures take effect, Han said.

The European Union would not be able to make up the losses for U.S. soybean producers, who will be left with a huge surplus without China buying the grain from them, according to Han. He said although the EU had agreed to import more soybeans from America, it would only buy 13 million to 14 million tons of soybeans a year over the next decade, according to estimates — compared with the more than 30 million tons of the grain China bought from the U.S. last year.

But Han admitted that Washington’s tariffs would impact China’s fruit, vegetable and seafood producers because it would not be easy for them to find alternative export destinations in the short term. He said Beijing would help exporters find other countries to sell their products to and try to boost domestic consumption instead, to minimize the impact of the tariffs.

The United States was the third largest market for Chinese fruit and fifth largest for vegetables last year, with the exports valued at a combined $1.84 billion. ...

Trump has no plan A, B or any other plan against China as the trade war is backfiring and will slowly envelop US technology manufacturers.

Trump promised us that "trade wars are easy to win". He thought he could just do his usual carnival barker routine and steamroll the Chinese, because he'll always be controlled by his narcissistic personality disorder.

The Chinese aren't going to be intimidated by a cartoonish man-child.

Still, I very much hope you're wrong. Maybe the people actually doing the negotiating for us actually know what they're doing. That's still entirely possible.
.

What is your proposal? We should roll over and just forget any trade negotiation with China? Go back to the status quo? At some point one of our Presidents had to grow a pair and make China abide by the same rules as others in the WTO. Now is the time as our economy is stronger than them and we can hold out longer than they can. I would advise Trump to get some of the other countries with whom he has already reached trade deals, to join forces with the US against China. Unfortuantely, many of those countries are run by not-guts leftists, so not sure that is plausible at this point. China WILL give in if Trump is re-elected. They may save face in some way, but make not mistake about it...the US will be in better shape afterwards than it was prior to the negotiations.

The US proletariat is suffering from Trump's trade war. Economic theory tells us that the US will not be better off with tariffs, before or after the trade war.

"A Washington Post-ABC News poll released Tuesday found that 60% of Americans were “concerned” that the trade war with China will raise the prices of things they buy, and that the same percentage thought a recession was coming within a year. Forty-three percent of respondents said they thought Trump’s trade and economic policies increased the likelihood of a recession, as opposed to 16% who thought the opposite."

Many Americans are just ignorant. The mainstream media pushes the narrative of a recesssion and many who just don't understand buy it. It is a self-fullfilling prophecy. The economic numbers are very good, especially considering how poorly the rest of the world is doing. China's economy is fundamentally in MUCH worse shape than ours. Compared to the rest of the world, our economy is flourishing. I don't think the average American has a clue about the effects of devaluing currency, the causes of inverted yield curves nor the effect that negative interest rates in Europe have on our economy.

The "economic numbers are very good" is not true. They are just a continuation of the momentum of the Obama economy. Trump has done nothing of lasting effect on the economy and his tax cut for the wealthy is just a bubble that ballooned out government deficit and debt.

Trump's trade war has already trashed American agriculture and small-town America and is now starting to hurt American manufacturing which is starting to report job losses.

 

[DBA]

Trump has no plan A, B or any other plan against China as the trade war is backfiring and will slowly envelop US technology manufacturers.

Trump promised us that "trade wars are easy to win". He thought he could just do his usual carnival barker routine and steamroll the Chinese, because he'll always be controlled by his narcissistic personality disorder.

The Chinese aren't going to be intimidated by a cartoonish man-child.

Still, I very much hope you're wrong. Maybe the people actually doing the negotiating for us actually know what they're doing. That's still entirely possible.
.

What is your proposal? We should roll over and just forget any trade negotiation with China? Go back to the status quo? At some point one of our Presidents had to grow a pair and make China abide by the same rules as others in the WTO. Now is the time as our economy is stronger than them and we can hold out longer than they can. I would advise Trump to get some of the other countries with whom he has already reached trade deals, to join forces with the US against China. Unfortuantely, many of those countries are run by not-guts leftists, so not sure that is plausible at this point. China WILL give in if Trump is re-elected. They may save face in some way, but make not mistake about it...the US will be in better shape afterwards than it was prior to the negotiations.

I have to keep saying this, I guess. I get it on every topic.

Our choice is not to either (a) "roll over and just forget any trade negotiation with China", or (b) act like Trump acts.

There are other ways to approach complex issues than to beat on them with a stick and appear to be unstable and immature.

I can not make it any more simple or clear than that.
.

The problem with Trump's approach is that Donald Trump is seeking an instant outcome of Chinese capitulation. It didn't happen.

So now the trade war goes into different phases which Trump has no plan for.

This trade war is not about trade. It is about obstructing the technological and economic progression of China which was heading to world dominance in economic and political influence. The USA doesn't want world domination by China.

Their dominance is due to their intellectual property theft and their slave labor. They aren't particularly ingenious, just copycats. Stopping and enforcing the intellectual property theft is a problem for them. Capitalism is the engine that drives ingenuity. Looking forward to the 2020 election, if a Democrat wins, America will lose as Capitalism will take a back seat and we will concede to China. Not sure why any true American would vote for that.