Trump files, jury sees classified files or Trump wins

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You don't understand.....OK, got it.

I couldn't come to that determination without examining all the evidence.

Sure you could, if you qualify it. Educated, rational adults do this all the time.

"If the evidence bears out the statements of fact in the indictment, Trump is guilty as shit."

You think you are acting like a moderate thinker, but what you are really doing is soothing yourself and avoiding thought.

 

[Kilroy2]

No. I referred to 244 US code 2201 presidential records.
(2) The term “presidential record means …but (B) Does not include any documentary materials that are… Extra copies of documents, produce only for convenience of reference…”

As far as we know, that is exactly what happened.

He can take copies of them for reference as called for in the part of the regulation I just quoted.

As to whether they were classified or not, that will be for the jury to determine. Apparently the department of Justice wants to hide those records so the jury cannot make a fair decision.

I said personal records, I spoke in error. I meant copies for reference. Sorry, I’ve explained this so many times. I feel like I have to start over with each poster.

EDIT:

I just checked and I didn’t say anything about “personal.” I suppose you assumed that was what I meant and ran with it.

Turns out, I meant what I said, and said what I meant. And it matched the regulation perfectly. Go figure!

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) requires the President to separate personal documents from Presidential records before leaving office. 44 U.S.C. 2203(b).

So personal records he can keep and the government does not keep them

The PRA makes clear that, upon the conclusion of the President’s term in office, NARA assumes responsibility for the custody, control, preservation of, and access to the records of a President. 44 U.S.C. 2203(g)(1). The PRA makes the legal status of Presidential records clear and unambiguous, providing that the United States reserves and retains “complete ownership, possession, and control of Presidential records.” 44 U.S.C. 2202. There is no history, practice, or provision in law for presidents to take official records with them when they leave office

So copies of presidential duties and actions belong to the US. I would imagine that anything that is not classified would be available to the public based on FOIA request.

making copies of classified documents does not change anything

Making a copy does not change its status as a presidential record because these records are what he does as president and belongs to the government which would include any copies. unless is is stated specifically that he can make copies to keep somewhere

Personal records can be kept but he or she must sort them before the end of the presidency but it also appears to make it clear that if he or she do not separate the two that they would belong to the government once he or she leaves the building.

 

[Seymour Flops]

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) requires the President to separate personal documents from Presidential records before leaving office. 44 U.S.C. 2203(b).

So personal records he can keep and the government does not keep them

Now, you are being intellectually dishonest by going back to "personal documents" when I never said that Trump kept the records in question because they were personal.

The PRA makes clear that, upon the conclusion of the President’s term in office, NARA assumes responsibility for the custody, control, preservation of, and access to the records of a President. 44 U.S.C. 2203(g)(1). The PRA makes the legal status of Presidential records clear and unambiguous, providing that the United States reserves and retains “complete ownership, possession, and control of Presidential records.” 44 U.S.C. 2202. There is no history, practice, or provision in law for presidents to take official records with them when they leave office

So copies of presidential duties and actions belong to the US. I would imagine that anything that is not classified would be available to the public based on FOIA request.

making copies of classified documents does not change anything

Making a copy does not change its status as a presidential record because these records are what he does as president and belongs to the government which would include any copies. unless is is stated specifically that he can make copies to keep somewhere

Personal records can be kept but he or she must sort them before the end of the presidency but it also appears to make it clear that if he or she do not separate the two that they would belong to the government once he or she leaves the building.

I'll be happy to debate with you if you acknowledge the plain fact that presidents are allowed to keep copies of documents for reference. Sorry, not going to debate a person who does the message board verson of fingers in the ears, "lalalalala."

44 U.S. Code § 2201 - Definitions

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[Kilroy2]

Now, you are being intellectually dishonest by going back to "personal documents" when I never said that Trump kept the records in question because they were personal.

I'll be happy to debate with you if you acknowledge the plain fact that presidents are allowed to keep copies of documents for reference. Sorry, not going to debate a person who does the message board verson of fingers in the ears, "lalalalala."

View attachment 920997

44 U.S. Code § 2201 - Definitions

www.law.cornell.edu

This does not apply to classified documents which is the problem Trump is facing

 

[Seymour Flops]

This does not apply to classified documents which is the problem Trump is facing

So, you are eager for the jury to see the documents so they know that they are classified?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

So, you are eager for the jury to see the documents so they know that they are classified?

Don't feed the sealions.

 

[Kilroy2]

So, you are eager for the jury to see the documents so they know that they are classified?

It will never happen. Classified by its definition means you have to have the proper clearance to see them. The judge is risking her career if she goes down that path

Cannon largely sides with prosecutors in bid to limit sharing of classified evidence

U.S. District Court Judge Aileen Cannon largely sided with special counsel Jack Smith in a battle to shield certain information from former President Trump’s lawyers as they prepare for trial in hi…

thehill.com

This was a month ago so I do not know where this new story is coming from. It seems that there was an offer of limited sharing by the prosecution but my bet is the defense wants it all knowing full well it will never happen. Thus causing a big delay which is what they want.

It will never happen unless they redact a lot of stuff then maybe all they will see is a lot of blocked out text.

Still the big red marking should be enough to show the jury

no need for them to bother reading it in detail unless the defense is saying that this is all a conspiracy as a defense, hell I would do it as that what a defense is for. Throw mud and see what sticks. Get more money from Trump

If they were to read it then most likely it would doom Trump

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It will never happen. Classified by its definition means you have to have the proper clearance to see them. The judge is risking her career if she goes down that path

Cannon largely sides with prosecutors in bid to limit sharing of classified evidence

U.S. District Court Judge Aileen Cannon largely sided with special counsel Jack Smith in a battle to shield certain information from former President Trump’s lawyers as they prepare for trial in hi…

thehill.com

This was a month ago so I do not know where this new story is coming from. It seems that there was an offer of limited sharing by the prosecution but my bet is the defense wants it all knowing full well it will never happen. Thus causing a big delay which is what they want.

It will never happen unless they redact a lot of stuff then maybe all they will see is a lot of blocked out text.

Still the big red marking should be enough to show the jury

no need for them to bother reading it in detail unless the defense is saying that this is all a conspiracy as a defense, hell I would do it as that what a defense is for. Throw mud and see what sticks. Get more money from Trump

If they were to read it then most likely it would doom Trump

This judge's career has one foot in the grave.

 

[Seymour Flops]

It will never happen. Classified by its definition means you have to have the proper clearance to see them. The judge is risking her career if she goes down that path

Cannon largely sides with prosecutors in bid to limit sharing of classified evidence

U.S. District Court Judge Aileen Cannon largely sided with special counsel Jack Smith in a battle to shield certain information from former President Trump’s lawyers as they prepare for trial in hi…

thehill.com

Why?

Is there something magical about being n a jury that means you cannot get a security clearance?

This was a month ago so I do not know where this new story is coming from. It seems that there was an offer of limited sharing by the prosecution but my bet is the defense wants it all knowing full well it will never happen. Thus causing a big delay which is what they want.

Now, that is interesting. Why would it be up to the prosecution to "offer" to "share?" Why do they get to decide exactly what to "share?"

I thought the claim was that they are presidential records, owned by the people and managed by the archivist. Where does "the prosecution" come in as an owner or custodian?

It will never happen unless they redact a lot of stuff then maybe all they will see is a lot of blocked out text.

Still the big red marking should be enough to show the jury

Do you have any previous cases in which a jury convicted without seeing the evidence?

no need for them to bother reading it in detail unless the defense is saying that this is all a conspiracy as a defense, hell I would do it as that what a defense is for. Throw mud and see what sticks. Get more money from Trump

If they were to read it then most likely it would doom Trump

Then why is the prosecution so eager to hide it?

 

[Delldude]

Educated, rational adults do this all the time.

Guess you're feeling kind of left out after that statement......feeling sorry for you.

"If the evidence bears out the statements of fact in the indictment, Trump is guilty as shit."

Very true, all the more reason to view the evidence as I have previously stated.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Guess you're feeling kind of left out after that statement......feeling sorry for you.

Very true, all the more reason to view the evidence as I have previously stated.

They only need evidence the documents are classified. That does not include the top secret content of the documents.

That's why Cannon"s jury instructions are so bizarre and deviant. There is no legal basis for them. And Jack Smith will ask, "Are you sure?"

And if she mistakenly says yes, then it's off to the circuit of appeals he goes with yet another suspect and deviant ruling by Cannon.

And another bullet in the gun for having her removed from the case.

 

[Delldude]

They only need evidence the documents are classified.

Classified Mad magazine issues?

That does not include the top secret content of the documents.

There has to be a little bit more that 'trust me'.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Classified Mad magazine issues?

Oops, looks like Dell has rolled up into the fetal position again.

 

[Delldude]

Oops, looks like Dell has rolled up into the fetal position again.

Tell me, how would a jury vote on evidence they haven't any clue what it was about?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Tell me, how would a jury vote on evidence they haven't any clue what it was about?

That, of course, depends on the question being asked.

Is it classified? That seems to be the question.

A jury would not need to read the contents of a classified document to understand that it is classified.

 

[Delldude]

Is it classified? That seems to be the question.

Back tracking in support of Trump now.................

A jury would not need to read the contents of a classified document to understand that it is classified.

And how would they come to that conclusion.....because some Trump hating DOJ wonk wouldn't give them some inclinations as to what they are about to base a verdict on?

"Trust us"

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

And how would they come to that conclusion...

By showing that part of the document to them, then showing them how classification works.

You're asking stupid questions.

 

[Delldude]

By showing that part of the document to them, then showing them how classification works.

Still no inference to what the charges are about. Can't reach a verdict in your world.

You're asking stupid questions.

Yet you give stupid posts.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Still no inference to what the charges are about.

Except for when I said: "Are the documents classified? That's the question."

Is that not the question we were talking about? Do you think there is a larger or different question put forth to the jury, regarding the documents? One that requires them to see the content?

 

[Marener]

And how would they come to that conclusion.....because some Trump hating DOJ wonk wouldn't give them some inclinations as to what they are about to base a verdict on?

The documents can be described and summarized without revealing the classified information.

Are you under some impression that juries are to decide if classified documents are actually classified?