Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground

[Coyote]

If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship. But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for, when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them. They did not choose this. It is being forced on them.

And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Israel should not be forced to grant citizenship to people hostile to Israel. And people should not have citizenship forced upon them. For both these reasons, residency status with an option to apply for Israeli citizenship, and the option for Israel to deny such citizenship is the fairest and best answer.

Also your article about citizenship being "extremely hard to get" is out of date. Currently, applications for citizenship for Jerusalem Arab residents are processed in under one year with a success rate of just over 50%.

50% isn’t very high.

50% isn’t “extremely hard to get”.

I disagree on that. It’s a 50/50 chance. Not very good for something that is pretty vital to basic rights and protections.

 

[Coyote]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

 

[Shusha]

Coyote

Would you agree that the Arab Israelis currently protesting against being forced to become Palestinian citizens should be forced to become Palestinian citizens?

No.

and that is why I said citizenship should be offered, not forced. In fact I said that several times.

It seems to me that providing residency status and the invitation to apply for citizenship is an offer. There is no point in processing the information of people who don't want it and therefore don't apply.

 

[Shusha]

If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship. But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for, when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them. They did not choose this. It is being forced on them.

And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Israel should not be forced to grant citizenship to people hostile to Israel. And people should not have citizenship forced upon them. For both these reasons, residency status with an option to apply for Israeli citizenship, and the option for Israel to deny such citizenship is the fairest and best answer.

Also your article about citizenship being "extremely hard to get" is out of date. Currently, applications for citizenship for Jerusalem Arab residents are processed in under one year with a success rate of just over 50%.

50% isn’t very high.

50% isn’t “extremely hard to get”.

I disagree on that. It’s a 50/50 chance. Not very good for something that is pretty vital to basic rights and protections.

No, its not "vital" to "basic rights and protections". As I said before, my mother lived in Canada as a permanent resident for 50 years and was just fine, thank you. The idea that it is somehow not fine when its done in Israel is suspicious, frankly.

But if you want to discuss WHY these people are being rejected for citizenship, you would have to stop blaming Israel and start putting the responsibility on Arabs. Are you willing to do that?

 

[Shusha]

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Do you realize this is Tinmore's argument for why Israel should not exist and for why all the "foreigners" (and he means Jewish foreigners so - Jews) should go back home? You are justifying hostility by saying, well, if Jews just didn't live in their own homeland, then the Arabs wouldn't be hostile to Jews.

The presence of Jews in their own homeland is not a violation or a cause for violence.

 

[Shusha]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Trump's plan places nearly 100% of Jewish Israelis and 100% of Arab Palestinians under their own respective governments.

 

[toomuchtime_]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

The difference being annexing territory with a Jewish population in need of protection and annexing a hostile population.

A Jewish population that chose, was not forced, to move into an area with a pre-existing and hostile population.

Sounds like you're saying Jews who moved into Judea and Samaria deserve to die.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

BLUF: I don't believe there is a common yardstick amount all these issues.

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

(COMMENT)

First, I do not believe that the decision to annex anything new has been made yet.

There is a lot of ground between the time assumption of effective control in the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip in 1967, and the abandonment of Jordanian claim of Sovereignty in 1988 and the Israeli assumption of effective control in the absence of any other government, the Israeli-Egyptian Peace Treaty, the Oslo Accords, the Israeli unilateral from the Gaza Strip, etc, etc, etc...

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

(COMMENT)

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The Government of Israel has decided to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with the PLO within the Middle East peace process.

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

(COMMENT)

The decision to exempt "children" (those not yet beyond emancipation) is optional to the Israeli authorities. Those not beyond emancipation must usually be accompanied by an adult family member. And this is where is gets politically tricky (damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario).

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.
.

(COMMENT)

You mean if annexed, the Israelis would need to bring the infrastructure up to the national standard. That would be YES in any event. It has nothing to do with a Jewish Counterpart. It would be handled the same as other culturally managed areas in Israel.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.
.

(COMMENT)

This has to do with many other things besides "non-citizen" services.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.
.

(COMMENT)

There is no "universal" criteria. But in terms of disqualifying factors, most of the advanced have similar conditions.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.
.

(COMMENT)

While that is often true, within the Arab Palestinian culture, that is not the case. I would like to bring your attention to the Black September.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.
.

(COMMENT)

The variations are due, principally, to the agreed-upon differences responding to the GCIV and the identified difference between Areas A, B. C... Even within a single venue, there can be differences between the community of one ethnic background and another. But the differences are, by and large, driven by the minority group forming the community.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toomuchtime_]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is. In UNGA resolution 194, which anti semites like you often falsely claim established an absolute right of return for the refugees, specified that only those who were willing to live in peace with Jews had that right. Israel will apply that same principle in determining which of the Palestinians who might live on the land to be annexed will be granted citizenship: hence the requirement to apply for citizenship. Those Palestinians who want to become Israeli citizens and who can show they are willing to live in peace with Jews and who will pledge allegiance to Israel will become citizens.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote

Would you agree that the Arab Israelis currently protesting against being forced to become Palestinian citizens should be forced to become Palestinian citizens?

No.

and that is why I said citizenship should be offered, not forced. In fact I said that several times.

It seems to me that providing residency status and the invitation to apply for citizenship is an offer. There is no point in processing the information of people who don't want it and therefore don't apply.

I think they way in which it is done confers intention: inclusion vs exclusion. If you invite them to apply, the process should easy, expedited and better better than 50/50. They not immigrants and are not migrating into a new country.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Coyote

Would you agree that the Arab Israelis currently protesting against being forced to become Palestinian citizens should be forced to become Palestinian citizens?

No.

and that is why I said citizenship should be offered, not forced. In fact I said that several times.

It seems to me that providing residency status and the invitation to apply for citizenship is an offer. There is no point in processing the information of people who don't want it and therefore don't apply.

I think they way in which it is done confers intention: inclusion vs exclusion. If you invite them to apply, the process should easy, expedited and better better than 50/50. They not immigrants and are not migrating into a new country.

The process is easy for those who are willing to live in peace with the Jews, and it is appropriately impossible for those who are not.

 

[Coyote]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Well, your reply was certainly predictable.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is.

Did you READ what I wrote, or are you so full of hate it in went in one ear and out the other? From this statement alone, it is obvious you did not or did not comprehend it.

And, without bothering with the rest of the paragraph, Since you have a,ready lied, I will point out I have long and consistently opposed any sort of multigenerational “right of return”.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

Voting in municipal elections is not the same as voting for the Knesset (are implying it is)? The Knesset makes the laws that they have to live by and that they have no say in.

There are other differences.

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

They can not vote in national elections, they don’t have passports, they remain stateless and exist in a legal “no man’s land”.

Which would you rather have?

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.[

If permanent residency status is so great, then why are so many East Jerusalem Arabs applying for it, and why is Israel shortening the process to one year (a reasonable fix imo): Israel to dramatically shorten East Jerusalemites’ path to citizenship – report

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

The only hate-filled, bigoted, warped mind I see is yours.

 

[toomuchtime_]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Well, your reply was certainly predictable.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is.

Did you READ what I wrote, or are you so full of hate it in went in one ear and out the other? From this statement alone, it is obvious you did or did comprehend it.

And, without bothering with the rest of the paragraph, Since you have a,ready lied, I will point out I have long and consistently opposed any sort of multigenerational “right of return”.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

Voting in municipal elections is not the same as voting for the Knesset (are implying it is)? The Knesset makes the laws that they have to live by and that they have no say in.

There are other differences.

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

They can not vote in national elections, they don’t have passports, they remain stateless and exist in a legal “no man’s land”.

Which would you rather have?

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.[

If permanent residency status is so great, then why are so many East Jerusalem Arabs applying for it, and why is Israel shortening the process to one year (a reasonable fix imo): Israel to dramatically shorten East Jerusalemites’ path to citizenship – report

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

The only hate warped mind I see is yours.

[/QUOTE]
You are confused. I said you had a warped mind and told bigoted lies. Try not to misquote me in the future.

 

[Coyote]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

The difference being annexing territory with a Jewish population in need of protection and annexing a hostile population.

A Jewish population that chose, was not forced, to move into an area with a pre-existing and hostile population.

Sounds like you're saying Jews who moved into Judea and Samaria deserve to die.

Sounds like you are lying. Again.

 

[toomuchtime_]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

The difference being annexing territory with a Jewish population in need of protection and annexing a hostile population.

A Jewish population that chose, was not forced, to move into an area with a pre-existing and hostile population.

Sounds like you're saying Jews who moved into Judea and Samaria deserve to die.

Sounds like you are lying. Again.

We both know I'm not lying.

 

[Coyote]

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Well, your reply was certainly predictable.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is.

Did you READ what I wrote, or are you so full of hate it in went in one ear and out the other? From this statement alone, it is obvious you did or did comprehend it.

And, without bothering with the rest of the paragraph, Since you have a,ready lied, I will point out I have long and consistently opposed any sort of multigenerational “right of return”.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

Voting in municipal elections is not the same as voting for the Knesset (are implying it is)? The Knesset makes the laws that they have to live by and that they have no say in.

There are other differences.

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

They can not vote in national elections, they don’t have passports, they remain stateless and exist in a legal “no man’s land”.

Which would you rather have?

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.[

If permanent residency status is so great, then why are so many East Jerusalem Arabs applying for it, and why is Israel shortening the process to one year (a reasonable fix imo): Israel to dramatically shorten East Jerusalemites’ path to citizenship – report

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

The only hate warped mind I see is yours.

You are confused. I said you had a warped mind and told bigoted lies. Try not to misquote me in the future.

I am not the least bit confused, nor do I hate anyone. I am applying your own words to you, in a very accurate manner. I am sorry it makes you uncomfortable. However, anytime your wish to engage in a real discussion, I will be happy to do so without your crappola

 

[toomuchtime_]

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Well, your reply was certainly predictable.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is.

Did you READ what I wrote, or are you so full of hate it in went in one ear and out the other? From this statement alone, it is obvious you did or did comprehend it.

And, without bothering with the rest of the paragraph, Since you have a,ready lied, I will point out I have long and consistently opposed any sort of multigenerational “right of return”.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

Voting in municipal elections is not the same as voting for the Knesset (are implying it is)? The Knesset makes the laws that they have to live by and that they have no say in.

There are other differences.

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

They can not vote in national elections, they don’t have passports, they remain stateless and exist in a legal “no man’s land”.

Which would you rather have?

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.[

If permanent residency status is so great, then why are so many East Jerusalem Arabs applying for it, and why is Israel shortening the process to one year (a reasonable fix imo): Israel to dramatically shorten East Jerusalemites’ path to citizenship – report

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

The only hate warped mind I see is yours.

You are confused. I said you had a warped mind and told bigoted lies. Try not to misquote me in the future.

I am not the least bit confused, nor do I hate anyone. I am applying your own words to you, in a very accurate manner. I am sorry it makes you uncomfortable. However, anytime your wish to engage in a real discussion, I will be happy to do so without your crappola

I have been discussing the issues and I have countered each of your arguments but instead of responding with substantial arguments, you choose to play the victim.

 

[Coyote]

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Do you realize this is Tinmore's argument for why Israel should not exist and for why all the "foreigners" (and he means Jewish foreigners so - Jews) should go back home? You are justifying hostility by saying, well, if Jews just didn't live in their own homeland, then the Arabs wouldn't be hostile to Jews.

The presence of Jews in their own homeland is not a violation or a cause for violence.

Except I am not making that argument. The argument that Israel SHOULD annex those areas because the Jews there need to be protected from Arab hostility (and, by implication, assigns a less-than value to the rights of the Arabs there) ignores the fact that they were already there when the Jews started creating settlements in that area. When you CHOOSE to ignore that - you are ignoring half the equation.

I am not justifying the hostility. Frankly, that is like my saying you are justifying expelling the Arabs because it's the Jewish "homeland". Is that accurate?

 

[Coyote]

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Well, your reply was certainly predictable.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is.

Did you READ what I wrote, or are you so full of hate it in went in one ear and out the other? From this statement alone, it is obvious you did or did comprehend it.

And, without bothering with the rest of the paragraph, Since you have a,ready lied, I will point out I have long and consistently opposed any sort of multigenerational “right of return”.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

Voting in municipal elections is not the same as voting for the Knesset (are implying it is)? The Knesset makes the laws that they have to live by and that they have no say in.

There are other differences.

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

They can not vote in national elections, they don’t have passports, they remain stateless and exist in a legal “no man’s land”.

Which would you rather have?

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.[

If permanent residency status is so great, then why are so many East Jerusalem Arabs applying for it, and why is Israel shortening the process to one year (a reasonable fix imo): Israel to dramatically shorten East Jerusalemites’ path to citizenship – report

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

The only hate warped mind I see is yours.

You are confused. I said you had a warped mind and told bigoted lies. Try not to misquote me in the future.[/QUOTE]

Please attempt the same on your part

Thanks

 

[toomuchtime_]

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Well, your reply was certainly predictable.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is.

Did you READ what I wrote, or are you so full of hate it in went in one ear and out the other? From this statement alone, it is obvious you did or did comprehend it.

And, without bothering with the rest of the paragraph, Since you have a,ready lied, I will point out I have long and consistently opposed any sort of multigenerational “right of return”.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

Voting in municipal elections is not the same as voting for the Knesset (are implying it is)? The Knesset makes the laws that they have to live by and that they have no say in.

There are other differences.

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

They can not vote in national elections, they don’t have passports, they remain stateless and exist in a legal “no man’s land”.

Which would you rather have?

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.[

If permanent residency status is so great, then why are so many East Jerusalem Arabs applying for it, and why is Israel shortening the process to one year (a reasonable fix imo): Israel to dramatically shorten East Jerusalemites’ path to citizenship – report

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

The only hate warped mind I see is yours.

You are confused. I said you had a warped mind and told bigoted lies. Try not to misquote me in the future.

Please attempt the same on your part

Thanks [/QUOTE]
There you go again, playing the victim instead of addressing the issues at hand.