Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground

[RoccoR]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

The Arab Palestinians are not now, citizens of Israel. The Arab Palestinians are citizens of the quasi territory in dispute (sometimes inaccurately referred to as the Occupied Palestinian Territories).

Yet how can Israel even be a parliamentary democracy of a significant group of people have no rights or representation? I don't see how that is laudable.

(COMMENT) (The Short Answer)

There are two completely different venues.

◈ One Israeli...

◈ One NOT Israeli!​

The description of a "Parliamentary Democracy" applies to the entire sovereign territory of Israel and the citizenry within. It does not describe the territory that is NOT claimed as Israeli Sovereign Territory (the One NOT Israeli!).

The Israeli "Basic Law" guarantees equal rights for all Israeli citizens; including Arab-Israelis. Israeli Rights do not apply to non-citizens (Arab Palestinians living outside Israeli, not Israeli citizen).

This distinction is the same as the distinction the United States makes. The people of Mexico and Canada (living outside the US) do not have the same rights as Americans (living inside the US).

(SIDEBAR ISSUES) (Associated Relevance: STOP if you are satisfied with the short answer.)

The Convention Relating to the Status of Stateless Persons is NOT applicable to persons who are at present receiving from organs or agencies of the United Nations other than the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees protection or assistance so long as they are receiving such protection or assistance. That would include those receiving assistance from the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA).

Nor does the International Law (the Convention Relating to the Status of Stateless Persons) apply to those who have:

◈ Committed a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity, as defined in the international instruments drawn up to make provisions in respect of such crimes;

◈ Committed a serious non-political crime outside the country of their residence prior to their admission to that country;

◈ Committed intentional offenses involving the use of explosives and other lethal devices in, into, or against various defined public places with intent to kill or cause serious bodily injury, or with intent to cause extensive destruction of the public place.
​

(• ∑ SUMMATION •)

Not only does the application of International Law prevent Israel from being described as a "parliamentary democracy," various International Laws, taken separately or in concert, endorse and encourage the application of restrictions.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toomuchtime_]

You told a stupid lie and got called for it. Israel will be annexing approximately half of area C and there are very few Palestinians in that half. The fact that you work so hard to try to justify your irrational hatred of Israel is proof of your anti semitism.

Oh brother. Come up with some fresh material please.

I didn't see where it was specified what portion of Area C - only Area C.

I'm sure, though, given you are such a stellar and unbigoted person, you will agree that those Palestinians in the annexed area should be given citizenship and voting rights, if they wish it. Correct?

Well, the area to be annexed is specified in the Trump plan so if you don't know which area it is then you don't know don't know what is in the Trump plan, which is what this discussion is about. Holding strong opinions, as you do, that are not based on facts, as yours aren't, is a definition of bigotry: hence with every post you identify yourself as an anti semite.

Again, you and your constant claims of anti-semitism are tiresome, like the person continuously pulling the race card at every perceived slight.

Since the Trump plan hasn't been agreed to by anyone or acted on as a plan - how do you know exactly what is being annexed? I'll take your word for it.

I noticed you neatly avoid my question.

So I'll repeat it: I'm sure, though, given you are such a stellar and unbigoted person, you will agree that those Palestinians in the annexed area should be given citizenship and voting rights, if they wish it. Correct?

The fact that you don't know what Israel is going to annex is another confession of ignorance on your part since the government has been very clear it is going to annex those parts of area C specified in the Trump plan. Again, you identify yourself as a bigot by holding strong opinions that are not based on facts.

Since you are also ignorant of the fact I had previously answered your question, I will repeat my answer. The very few Palestinians who may be living on the land to be annexed, who are as per Oslo citizens of the PA, will be given resident status and the opportunity to apply for Israeli citizenship just as the Arabs in Jerusalem were. Only a rabid anti semite like yourself would think it was a good idea to grant Israelis citizenship to an unrepentant supporter of terrorism against Jews.

Ah. So they will be granted "residency" status...which, presumably can be revoked at any time for any reason...and they can be given the opportunity to "apply" for citizenship...which is extremely difficult for them to get. They will be unable to vote either. So they have no say in being annexed and...no guarantee of citizenship once their land is taken over. Nice! And you are the one that isn't supposed to be a bigot! Well done

Netanyahu proposed annexing a portion of Area C in September...presumably it's what he is talking about now. According to this article there 65,000 Palestinians (and 11,000 settlers) as of 2016. That's not "very few". So why did you lie?

Again you display your ignorance and dishonesty. Israeli and US officials are presently mapping out the section of area C to be annexed according to Trump's plan. There are very few Palestinians in the area. The few Palestinians in that area will be given residency status and if they apply for Israeli citizenship and have no significant criminal record or ties to terrorism and can credibly pledge allegiance to the state of Israel they will receive Israeli citizenship. This is the same process that occurs in the US or Europeans countries when residents apply for citizenship. Your proposal that supporters of terrorism against Jews should become Israeli citizens is bizarre and symptomatic of your anti semitism. You continue to assume things that aren't true to give you a platform to spout your anti semitism.

 

[toomuchtime_]

It's not a Trump plan. It's a Jared Kushner plan. He's a Jewish real estate developer who just happens to be Trump's advisor. But I'm sure everyone already knew that.

Of course it's Trump's plan. Trump sent Kushner, Greenblatt and Friedman to develop the plan and they he approved it. They spent two years researching the situation and consulting with both Israel and the Arab states and trying to consult with the PA, which refused, and it is the most widely and deeply researched and detailed plan ever presented.

If you approve of the Trump plan, then you are for a Palestinian state in some form, with some extra land being given to them in the South of Israel, that has always been part of Israel proper. Then why did you say previously that you are for the present status quo? It seems that you do have a vision for the future after all.

As President Trump has said, his plan is intended as a basis for negotiations and he will support anything both sides agree on. The Plan specifies that certain reforms must take place within the Palestinian society and culture for the US to recognize a Palestinian state. These include complete disarming, an end to the martyrs fund, and end to incitement against Jews or Israel in any form, and recognize Israel as a Jewish state and more. If the Palestinians were able to meet these conditions they would have already had a much larger state back in 2000. The probability the Palestinians will meet these conditions in the foreseeable future are slim to none, so the status quo will continue to be the only viable solution.

 

[Coyote]

;:,*

Oh brother. Come up with some fresh material please.

I didn't see where it was specified what portion of Area C - only Area C.

I'm sure, though, given you are such a stellar and unbigoted person, you will agree that those Palestinians in the annexed area should be given citizenship and voting rights, if they wish it. Correct?

Well, the area to be annexed is specified in the Trump plan so if you don't know which area it is then you don't know don't know what is in the Trump plan, which is what this discussion is about. Holding strong opinions, as you do, that are not based on facts, as yours aren't, is a definition of bigotry: hence with every post you identify yourself as an anti semite.

Again, you and your constant claims of anti-semitism are tiresome, like the person continuously pulling the race card at every perceived slight.

Since the Trump plan hasn't been agreed to by anyone or acted on as a plan - how do you know exactly what is being annexed? I'll take your word for it.

I noticed you neatly avoid my question.

So I'll repeat it: I'm sure, though, given you are such a stellar and unbigoted person, you will agree that those Palestinians in the annexed area should be given citizenship and voting rights, if they wish it. Correct?

The fact that you don't know what Israel is going to annex is another confession of ignorance on your part since the government has been very clear it is going to annex those parts of area C specified in the Trump plan. Again, you identify yourself as a bigot by holding strong opinions that are not based on facts.

Since you are also ignorant of the fact I had previously answered your question, I will repeat my answer. The very few Palestinians who may be living on the land to be annexed, who are as per Oslo citizens of the PA, will be given resident status and the opportunity to apply for Israeli citizenship just as the Arabs in Jerusalem were. Only a rabid anti semite like yourself would think it was a good idea to grant Israelis citizenship to an unrepentant supporter of terrorism against Jews.

Ah. So they will be granted "residency" status...which, presumably can be revoked at any time for any reason...and they can be given the opportunity to "apply" for citizenship...which is extremely difficult for them to get. They will be unable to vote either. So they have no say in being annexed and...no guarantee of citizenship once their land is taken over. Nice! And you are the one that isn't supposed to be a bigot! Well done

Netanyahu proposed annexing a portion of Area C in September...presumably it's what he is talking about now. According to this article there 65,000 Palestinians (and 11,000 settlers) as of 2016. That's not "very few". So why did you lie?

Again you display your ignorance and dishonesty. Israeli and US officials are presently mapping out the section of area C to be annexed according to Trump's plan. There are very few Palestinians in the area. The few Palestinians in that area will be given residency status and if they apply for Israeli citizenship and have no significant criminal record or ties to terrorism and can credibly pledge allegiance to the state of Israel they will receive Israeli citizenship. This is the same process that occurs in the US or Europeans countries when residents apply for citizenship. Your proposal that supporters of terrorism against Jews should become Israeli citizens is bizarre and symptomatic of your anti semitism. You continue to assume things that aren't true to give you a platform to spout your anti semitism.

Again, you bring in NEW information, not currently in the thread ( and unlinked/unsupported) and then lambaste others for dishonesty and antisemitism. That isn't discussion, it is just a pathetic rant. I linked to my claims, what Netanyahu said he would annex in the fall, and potential populations affected. And this all you come up with.

My view is this. If a country unilaterally annexes a territory, then the people come with it. That is if you consider yourself a civilized state.

If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship. But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for, when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them. They did not choose this. It is being forced on them.

And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Now go back to telling about dishonesty, lying and antisemitism. That is your predictable fallback position to any argument I notice.

 

[Shusha]

If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship. But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for, when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them. They did not choose this. It is being forced on them.

And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Israel should not be forced to grant citizenship to people hostile to Israel. And people should not have citizenship forced upon them. For both these reasons, residency status with an option to apply for Israeli citizenship, and the option for Israel to deny such citizenship is the fairest and best answer.

Also your article about citizenship being "extremely hard to get" is out of date. Currently, applications for citizenship for Jerusalem Arab residents are processed in under one year with a success rate of just over 50%.

 

[toomuchtime_]

;:,*

Well, the area to be annexed is specified in the Trump plan so if you don't know which area it is then you don't know don't know what is in the Trump plan, which is what this discussion is about. Holding strong opinions, as you do, that are not based on facts, as yours aren't, is a definition of bigotry: hence with every post you identify yourself as an anti semite.

Again, you and your constant claims of anti-semitism are tiresome, like the person continuously pulling the race card at every perceived slight.

Since the Trump plan hasn't been agreed to by anyone or acted on as a plan - how do you know exactly what is being annexed? I'll take your word for it.

I noticed you neatly avoid my question.

So I'll repeat it: I'm sure, though, given you are such a stellar and unbigoted person, you will agree that those Palestinians in the annexed area should be given citizenship and voting rights, if they wish it. Correct?

The fact that you don't know what Israel is going to annex is another confession of ignorance on your part since the government has been very clear it is going to annex those parts of area C specified in the Trump plan. Again, you identify yourself as a bigot by holding strong opinions that are not based on facts.

Since you are also ignorant of the fact I had previously answered your question, I will repeat my answer. The very few Palestinians who may be living on the land to be annexed, who are as per Oslo citizens of the PA, will be given resident status and the opportunity to apply for Israeli citizenship just as the Arabs in Jerusalem were. Only a rabid anti semite like yourself would think it was a good idea to grant Israelis citizenship to an unrepentant supporter of terrorism against Jews.

Ah. So they will be granted "residency" status...which, presumably can be revoked at any time for any reason...and they can be given the opportunity to "apply" for citizenship...which is extremely difficult for them to get. They will be unable to vote either. So they have no say in being annexed and...no guarantee of citizenship once their land is taken over. Nice! And you are the one that isn't supposed to be a bigot! Well done

Netanyahu proposed annexing a portion of Area C in September...presumably it's what he is talking about now. According to this article there 65,000 Palestinians (and 11,000 settlers) as of 2016. That's not "very few". So why did you lie?

Again you display your ignorance and dishonesty. Israeli and US officials are presently mapping out the section of area C to be annexed according to Trump's plan. There are very few Palestinians in the area. The few Palestinians in that area will be given residency status and if they apply for Israeli citizenship and have no significant criminal record or ties to terrorism and can credibly pledge allegiance to the state of Israel they will receive Israeli citizenship. This is the same process that occurs in the US or Europeans countries when residents apply for citizenship. Your proposal that supporters of terrorism against Jews should become Israeli citizens is bizarre and symptomatic of your anti semitism. You continue to assume things that aren't true to give you a platform to spout your anti semitism.

Again, you bring in NEW information, not currently in the thread ( and unlinked/unsupported) and then lambaste others for dishonesty and antisemitism. That isn't discussion, it is just a pathetic rant. I linked to my claims, what Netanyahu said he would annex in the fall, and potential populations affected. And this all you come up with.

My view is this. If a country unilaterally annexes a territory, then the people come with it. That is if you consider yourself a civilized state.

If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship. But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for, when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them. They did not choose this. It is being forced on them.

And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Now go back to telling about dishonesty, lying and antisemitism. That is your predictable fallback position to any argument I notice.

The thread is about the Trump plan, and everything I have posted is based on what is in the Plan, while you seek to avoid the Plan by seeking out

;:,*

Well, the area to be annexed is specified in the Trump plan so if you don't know which area it is then you don't know don't know what is in the Trump plan, which is what this discussion is about. Holding strong opinions, as you do, that are not based on facts, as yours aren't, is a definition of bigotry: hence with every post you identify yourself as an anti semite.

Again, you and your constant claims of anti-semitism are tiresome, like the person continuously pulling the race card at every perceived slight.

Since the Trump plan hasn't been agreed to by anyone or acted on as a plan - how do you know exactly what is being annexed? I'll take your word for it.

I noticed you neatly avoid my question.

So I'll repeat it: I'm sure, though, given you are such a stellar and unbigoted person, you will agree that those Palestinians in the annexed area should be given citizenship and voting rights, if they wish it. Correct?

The fact that you don't know what Israel is going to annex is another confession of ignorance on your part since the government has been very clear it is going to annex those parts of area C specified in the Trump plan. Again, you identify yourself as a bigot by holding strong opinions that are not based on facts.

Since you are also ignorant of the fact I had previously answered your question, I will repeat my answer. The very few Palestinians who may be living on the land to be annexed, who are as per Oslo citizens of the PA, will be given resident status and the opportunity to apply for Israeli citizenship just as the Arabs in Jerusalem were. Only a rabid anti semite like yourself would think it was a good idea to grant Israelis citizenship to an unrepentant supporter of terrorism against Jews.

Ah. So they will be granted "residency" status...which, presumably can be revoked at any time for any reason...and they can be given the opportunity to "apply" for citizenship...which is extremely difficult for them to get. They will be unable to vote either. So they have no say in being annexed and...no guarantee of citizenship once their land is taken over. Nice! And you are the one that isn't supposed to be a bigot! Well done

Netanyahu proposed annexing a portion of Area C in September...presumably it's what he is talking about now. According to this article there 65,000 Palestinians (and 11,000 settlers) as of 2016. That's not "very few". So why did you lie?

Again you display your ignorance and dishonesty. Israeli and US officials are presently mapping out the section of area C to be annexed according to Trump's plan. There are very few Palestinians in the area. The few Palestinians in that area will be given residency status and if they apply for Israeli citizenship and have no significant criminal record or ties to terrorism and can credibly pledge allegiance to the state of Israel they will receive Israeli citizenship. This is the same process that occurs in the US or Europeans countries when residents apply for citizenship. Your proposal that supporters of terrorism against Jews should become Israeli citizens is bizarre and symptomatic of your anti semitism. You continue to assume things that aren't true to give you a platform to spout your anti semitism.

Again, you bring in NEW information, not currently in the thread ( and unlinked/unsupported) and then lambaste others for dishonesty and antisemitism. That isn't discussion, it is just a pathetic rant. I linked to my claims, what Netanyahu said he would annex in the fall, and potential populations affected. And this all you come up with.

My view is this. If a country unilaterally annexes a territory, then the people come with it. That is if you consider yourself a civilized state.

If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship. But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for, when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them. They did not choose this. It is being forced on them.

And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Now go back to telling about dishonesty, lying and antisemitism. That is your predictable fallback position to any argument I notice.

The thread is about the Trump plan and everything I have posted is based on the Plan, while you cite other sources than the Plan ti justify your extreme hatred of Israel. The areas specified in the Trump plan contain very few Palestinians; that was one of the consideration when the Plan was drawn up. As for citizenship, to become a citizen of Israel or the US or any other country, you have to be able to credibly pledge allegiance to that country, and since polls have shown that at least half of the Palestinians support terrorism against Israel and Jews, a significant number of Palestinians cannot credibly pledge allegiance to Israel at this time and therefore cannot become citizens at this time. The application process is the way of sorting out which Palestinians can or cannot credibly pledge allegiance to Israel at this time. If you were not such a rabid anti semite you would see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

I understand. → I think that you are opposing, not what the Civil and Political Rights Israelis hold, in comparative advantage → but, that you are opposed to the agreement in the Oslo II Accords, made by the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated; the Palestine Liberation Organization, (PLO), Israel holds Area "C" in civil and security stasis.

(FOOD FOR THOUGHT) We have to ask, what Areas are considered liberated by the PLO? And Mahmoud Abbas is Chairman of the PLO (2004), and Palestinian President (2005).

And this is where I disagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Now go back to telling about dishonesty, lying and antisemitism. That is your predictable fallback position to any argument I notice.

(COMMENT)

The agreement between the Arab Palestinians and Israel, is fairly tattered (I agree); but it is made very clear by S/RES/465 (1980) → that the Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV) is applicable to the Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem. [See S/RES/237 (1967) Considering that all the obligations of the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War of 12 August 1949 should be complied with by the parties involved in the conflict,]


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

 

[Coyote]

If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship. But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for, when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them. They did not choose this. It is being forced on them.

And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Israel should not be forced to grant citizenship to people hostile to Israel. And people should not have citizenship forced upon them. For both these reasons, residency status with an option to apply for Israeli citizenship, and the option for Israel to deny such citizenship is the fairest and best answer.

Also your article about citizenship being "extremely hard to get" is out of date. Currently, applications for citizenship for Jerusalem Arab residents are processed in under one year with a success rate of just over 50%.

50% isn’t very high.

 

[Coyote]

;:,*

Again, you and your constant claims of anti-semitism are tiresome, like the person continuously pulling the race card at every perceived slight.

Since the Trump plan hasn't been agreed to by anyone or acted on as a plan - how do you know exactly what is being annexed? I'll take your word for it.

I noticed you neatly avoid my question.

So I'll repeat it: I'm sure, though, given you are such a stellar and unbigoted person, you will agree that those Palestinians in the annexed area should be given citizenship and voting rights, if they wish it. Correct?

The fact that you don't know what Israel is going to annex is another confession of ignorance on your part since the government has been very clear it is going to annex those parts of area C specified in the Trump plan. Again, you identify yourself as a bigot by holding strong opinions that are not based on facts.

Since you are also ignorant of the fact I had previously answered your question, I will repeat my answer. The very few Palestinians who may be living on the land to be annexed, who are as per Oslo citizens of the PA, will be given resident status and the opportunity to apply for Israeli citizenship just as the Arabs in Jerusalem were. Only a rabid anti semite like yourself would think it was a good idea to grant Israelis citizenship to an unrepentant supporter of terrorism against Jews.

Ah. So they will be granted "residency" status...which, presumably can be revoked at any time for any reason...and they can be given the opportunity to "apply" for citizenship...which is extremely difficult for them to get. They will be unable to vote either. So they have no say in being annexed and...no guarantee of citizenship once their land is taken over. Nice! And you are the one that isn't supposed to be a bigot! Well done

Netanyahu proposed annexing a portion of Area C in September...presumably it's what he is talking about now. According to this article there 65,000 Palestinians (and 11,000 settlers) as of 2016. That's not "very few". So why did you lie?

Again you display your ignorance and dishonesty. Israeli and US officials are presently mapping out the section of area C to be annexed according to Trump's plan. There are very few Palestinians in the area. The few Palestinians in that area will be given residency status and if they apply for Israeli citizenship and have no significant criminal record or ties to terrorism and can credibly pledge allegiance to the state of Israel they will receive Israeli citizenship. This is the same process that occurs in the US or Europeans countries when residents apply for citizenship. Your proposal that supporters of terrorism against Jews should become Israeli citizens is bizarre and symptomatic of your anti semitism. You continue to assume things that aren't true to give you a platform to spout your anti semitism.

Again, you bring in NEW information, not currently in the thread ( and unlinked/unsupported) and then lambaste others for dishonesty and antisemitism. That isn't discussion, it is just a pathetic rant. I linked to my claims, what Netanyahu said he would annex in the fall, and potential populations affected. And this all you come up with.

My view is this. If a country unilaterally annexes a territory, then the people come with it. That is if you consider yourself a civilized state.

If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship. But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for, when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them. They did not choose this. It is being forced on them.

And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Now go back to telling about dishonesty, lying and antisemitism. That is your predictable fallback position to any argument I notice.

The thread is about the Trump plan, and everything I have posted is based on what is in the Plan, while you seek to avoid the Plan by seeking out

;:,*

Again, you and your constant claims of anti-semitism are tiresome, like the person continuously pulling the race card at every perceived slight.

Since the Trump plan hasn't been agreed to by anyone or acted on as a plan - how do you know exactly what is being annexed? I'll take your word for it.

I noticed you neatly avoid my question.

So I'll repeat it: I'm sure, though, given you are such a stellar and unbigoted person, you will agree that those Palestinians in the annexed area should be given citizenship and voting rights, if they wish it. Correct?

The fact that you don't know what Israel is going to annex is another confession of ignorance on your part since the government has been very clear it is going to annex those parts of area C specified in the Trump plan. Again, you identify yourself as a bigot by holding strong opinions that are not based on facts.

Since you are also ignorant of the fact I had previously answered your question, I will repeat my answer. The very few Palestinians who may be living on the land to be annexed, who are as per Oslo citizens of the PA, will be given resident status and the opportunity to apply for Israeli citizenship just as the Arabs in Jerusalem were. Only a rabid anti semite like yourself would think it was a good idea to grant Israelis citizenship to an unrepentant supporter of terrorism against Jews.

Ah. So they will be granted "residency" status...which, presumably can be revoked at any time for any reason...and they can be given the opportunity to "apply" for citizenship...which is extremely difficult for them to get. They will be unable to vote either. So they have no say in being annexed and...no guarantee of citizenship once their land is taken over. Nice! And you are the one that isn't supposed to be a bigot! Well done

Netanyahu proposed annexing a portion of Area C in September...presumably it's what he is talking about now. According to this article there 65,000 Palestinians (and 11,000 settlers) as of 2016. That's not "very few". So why did you lie?

Again you display your ignorance and dishonesty. Israeli and US officials are presently mapping out the section of area C to be annexed according to Trump's plan. There are very few Palestinians in the area. The few Palestinians in that area will be given residency status and if they apply for Israeli citizenship and have no significant criminal record or ties to terrorism and can credibly pledge allegiance to the state of Israel they will receive Israeli citizenship. This is the same process that occurs in the US or Europeans countries when residents apply for citizenship. Your proposal that supporters of terrorism against Jews should become Israeli citizens is bizarre and symptomatic of your anti semitism. You continue to assume things that aren't true to give you a platform to spout your anti semitism.

Again, you bring in NEW information, not currently in the thread ( and unlinked/unsupported) and then lambaste others for dishonesty and antisemitism. That isn't discussion, it is just a pathetic rant. I linked to my claims, what Netanyahu said he would annex in the fall, and potential populations affected. And this all you come up with.

My view is this. If a country unilaterally annexes a territory, then the people come with it. That is if you consider yourself a civilized state.

If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship. But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for, when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them. They did not choose this. It is being forced on them.

And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Now go back to telling about dishonesty, lying and antisemitism. That is your predictable fallback position to any argument I notice.

The thread is about the Trump plan and everything I have posted is based on the Plan, while you cite other sources than the Plan ti justify your extreme hatred of Israel. The areas specified in the Trump plan contain very few Palestinians; that was one of the consideration when the Plan was drawn up. As for citizenship, to become a citizen of Israel or the US or any other country, you have to be able to credibly pledge allegiance to that country, and since polls have shown that at least half of the Palestinians support terrorism against Israel and Jews, a significant number of Palestinians cannot credibly pledge allegiance to Israel at this time and therefore cannot become citizens at this time. The application process is the way of sorting out which Palestinians can or cannot credibly pledge allegiance to Israel at this time. If you were not such a rabid anti semite you would see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

Blah blah blah rabid antisemites blah blah blah.

 

[toomuchtime_]

;:,*

The fact that you don't know what Israel is going to annex is another confession of ignorance on your part since the government has been very clear it is going to annex those parts of area C specified in the Trump plan. Again, you identify yourself as a bigot by holding strong opinions that are not based on facts.

Since you are also ignorant of the fact I had previously answered your question, I will repeat my answer. The very few Palestinians who may be living on the land to be annexed, who are as per Oslo citizens of the PA, will be given resident status and the opportunity to apply for Israeli citizenship just as the Arabs in Jerusalem were. Only a rabid anti semite like yourself would think it was a good idea to grant Israelis citizenship to an unrepentant supporter of terrorism against Jews.

Ah. So they will be granted "residency" status...which, presumably can be revoked at any time for any reason...and they can be given the opportunity to "apply" for citizenship...which is extremely difficult for them to get. They will be unable to vote either. So they have no say in being annexed and...no guarantee of citizenship once their land is taken over. Nice! And you are the one that isn't supposed to be a bigot! Well done

Netanyahu proposed annexing a portion of Area C in September...presumably it's what he is talking about now. According to this article there 65,000 Palestinians (and 11,000 settlers) as of 2016. That's not "very few". So why did you lie?

Again you display your ignorance and dishonesty. Israeli and US officials are presently mapping out the section of area C to be annexed according to Trump's plan. There are very few Palestinians in the area. The few Palestinians in that area will be given residency status and if they apply for Israeli citizenship and have no significant criminal record or ties to terrorism and can credibly pledge allegiance to the state of Israel they will receive Israeli citizenship. This is the same process that occurs in the US or Europeans countries when residents apply for citizenship. Your proposal that supporters of terrorism against Jews should become Israeli citizens is bizarre and symptomatic of your anti semitism. You continue to assume things that aren't true to give you a platform to spout your anti semitism.

Again, you bring in NEW information, not currently in the thread ( and unlinked/unsupported) and then lambaste others for dishonesty and antisemitism. That isn't discussion, it is just a pathetic rant. I linked to my claims, what Netanyahu said he would annex in the fall, and potential populations affected. And this all you come up with.

My view is this. If a country unilaterally annexes a territory, then the people come with it. That is if you consider yourself a civilized state.

If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship. But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for, when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them. They did not choose this. It is being forced on them.

And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Now go back to telling about dishonesty, lying and antisemitism. That is your predictable fallback position to any argument I notice.

The thread is about the Trump plan, and everything I have posted is based on what is in the Plan, while you seek to avoid the Plan by seeking out

;:,*

The fact that you don't know what Israel is going to annex is another confession of ignorance on your part since the government has been very clear it is going to annex those parts of area C specified in the Trump plan. Again, you identify yourself as a bigot by holding strong opinions that are not based on facts.

Since you are also ignorant of the fact I had previously answered your question, I will repeat my answer. The very few Palestinians who may be living on the land to be annexed, who are as per Oslo citizens of the PA, will be given resident status and the opportunity to apply for Israeli citizenship just as the Arabs in Jerusalem were. Only a rabid anti semite like yourself would think it was a good idea to grant Israelis citizenship to an unrepentant supporter of terrorism against Jews.

Ah. So they will be granted "residency" status...which, presumably can be revoked at any time for any reason...and they can be given the opportunity to "apply" for citizenship...which is extremely difficult for them to get. They will be unable to vote either. So they have no say in being annexed and...no guarantee of citizenship once their land is taken over. Nice! And you are the one that isn't supposed to be a bigot! Well done

Netanyahu proposed annexing a portion of Area C in September...presumably it's what he is talking about now. According to this article there 65,000 Palestinians (and 11,000 settlers) as of 2016. That's not "very few". So why did you lie?

Again you display your ignorance and dishonesty. Israeli and US officials are presently mapping out the section of area C to be annexed according to Trump's plan. There are very few Palestinians in the area. The few Palestinians in that area will be given residency status and if they apply for Israeli citizenship and have no significant criminal record or ties to terrorism and can credibly pledge allegiance to the state of Israel they will receive Israeli citizenship. This is the same process that occurs in the US or Europeans countries when residents apply for citizenship. Your proposal that supporters of terrorism against Jews should become Israeli citizens is bizarre and symptomatic of your anti semitism. You continue to assume things that aren't true to give you a platform to spout your anti semitism.

Again, you bring in NEW information, not currently in the thread ( and unlinked/unsupported) and then lambaste others for dishonesty and antisemitism. That isn't discussion, it is just a pathetic rant. I linked to my claims, what Netanyahu said he would annex in the fall, and potential populations affected. And this all you come up with.

My view is this. If a country unilaterally annexes a territory, then the people come with it. That is if you consider yourself a civilized state.

If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship. But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for, when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them. They did not choose this. It is being forced on them.

And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Now go back to telling about dishonesty, lying and antisemitism. That is your predictable fallback position to any argument I notice.

The thread is about the Trump plan and everything I have posted is based on the Plan, while you cite other sources than the Plan ti justify your extreme hatred of Israel. The areas specified in the Trump plan contain very few Palestinians; that was one of the consideration when the Plan was drawn up. As for citizenship, to become a citizen of Israel or the US or any other country, you have to be able to credibly pledge allegiance to that country, and since polls have shown that at least half of the Palestinians support terrorism against Israel and Jews, a significant number of Palestinians cannot credibly pledge allegiance to Israel at this time and therefore cannot become citizens at this time. The application process is the way of sorting out which Palestinians can or cannot credibly pledge allegiance to Israel at this time. If you were not such a rabid anti semite you would see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

Blah blah blah rabid antisemites blah blah blah.

I agree, that one work, anti semitism nicely sums up everything you have to say about Israel.

 

[toomuchtime_]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

 

[Shusha]

If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship. But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for, when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them. They did not choose this. It is being forced on them.

And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Israel should not be forced to grant citizenship to people hostile to Israel. And people should not have citizenship forced upon them. For both these reasons, residency status with an option to apply for Israeli citizenship, and the option for Israel to deny such citizenship is the fairest and best answer.

Also your article about citizenship being "extremely hard to get" is out of date. Currently, applications for citizenship for Jerusalem Arab residents are processed in under one year with a success rate of just over 50%.

50% isn’t very high.

50% isn’t “extremely hard to get”.

 

[Shusha]

Coyote

Would you agree that the Arab Israelis currently protesting against being forced to become Palestinian citizens should be forced to become Palestinian citizens?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

This is sort of like a contract. IF one party to the contract does cooperate and that causes the contract to fail, THEN some other remedy must be made available.

Then they should not annex.

(COMMENT)

The OSLO Accords had a plan to resolve issues. The very problems you are concerned about are discussed in the Permanent Status of Negotiations.

◈ Permanent status negotiations will commence as soon as possible, but not later than the beginning of the third year of the interim period, between the Government of Israel and the Palestinian people representatives.

◈ It is understood that these negotiations shall cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and cooperation with other neighbors, and other issues of common interest.

1. Disputes arising out of the application or interpretation of this Declaration of Principles. or any subsequent agreements pertaining to the interim period, shall be resolved by negotiations through the Joint Liaison Committee to be established pursuant to Article X above.

2. Disputes which cannot be settled by negotiations may be resolved by a mechanism of conciliation to be agreed upon by the parties.

3. The parties may agree to submit to arbitration disputes relating to the interim period, which cannot be settled through conciliation. To this end, upon the agreement of both parties, the parties will establish an Arbitration Committee.​

When the Arab Palestinian people invoke the "Khartoum Resolutions of 1967 (after the Six-Day War)" → (no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations) they are intentionally trying to make the process fail. And that is one of the main reasons for the prolonged. Every single one of the past Peace Plans presented over the last half-century requires the parties to come together in a negotiation. That is part and parcel outlined in the "Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States:"

◈ International disputes by peaceful means in accordance with the Charter.

◈ Both parties have the duty to refrain from propaganda for wars of aggression.

◈ Both parties must refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.

◈ Both parties must refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is a party or which it is otherwise bound to respect.​

Cooperation is a two-way street; some give and some take. There is an offer made for peace. The two parties enter into negotiation for the Consideration (something of political and security value) exchanged between the parties. Once a negotiation outlines the terms, then an agreement is drawn and the plan is accepted.

The details of the latest (in a long line of offers) peace plan — — absent of dialogue and negotiation in a more formal setting is disregarded, It becomes clear that the PLO and the Palestinian Authority (PA) will reject the offer and consign it to the round file.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shusha]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

The difference being annexing territory with a Jewish population in need of protection and annexing a hostile population.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

I made a careless mistake which Toddsterpatriot caught.

This is sort of like a contract. IF one party to the contract does cooperate and that causes the contract to fail, THEN some other remedy must be made available.

(CORRECTION)

This is sort of like a contract. IF one party to the contract does NOT cooperate and that causes the contract to fail, THEN some other remedy must be made available.

Many thanks to our friend "Toddster[atriot."


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

Coyote

Would you agree that the Arab Israelis currently protesting against being forced to become Palestinian citizens should be forced to become Palestinian citizens?

No.

and that is why I said citizenship should be offered, not forced. In fact I said that several times.

 

[Coyote]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

The difference being annexing territory with a Jewish population in need of protection and annexing a hostile population.

A Jewish population that chose, was not forced, to move into an area with a pre-existing and hostile population.