Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground

[Coyote]

If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship. But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for, when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them. They did not choose this. It is being forced on them.

And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Israel should not be forced to grant citizenship to people hostile to Israel. And people should not have citizenship forced upon them. For both these reasons, residency status with an option to apply for Israeli citizenship, and the option for Israel to deny such citizenship is the fairest and best answer.

Also your article about citizenship being "extremely hard to get" is out of date. Currently, applications for citizenship for Jerusalem Arab residents are processed in under one year with a success rate of just over 50%.

50% isn’t very high.

50% isn’t “extremely hard to get”.

I disagree on that. It’s a 50/50 chance. Not very good for something that is pretty vital to basic rights and protections.

No, its not "vital" to "basic rights and protections". As I said before, my mother lived in Canada as a permanent resident for 50 years and was just fine, thank you. The idea that it is somehow not fine when its done in Israel is suspicious, frankly.

Frankly, I find the fact that you view those two situations as the same rather suspicious.

I have a friend who is a permanent (green card) resident in the US, has been for years, probably actually 50. She is, however, a citizen of Germany and could back any time. One of the retired faculty members I work with is a British expat (we have lots of them) - he has a permanent residency, but he also maintains his citizenship with the UK. In none of those cases are they from a population unwillingly annexed by another nation who do not have a place to go back to in that same sense - "going back" would be leaving their place of origin and going to another land.

Seems to me people should be given a choice of citizenship - Israeli, or, maintaining Palestinian citizenship with permanent residency. But they ought to have that choice because even Palestinian citizenship is limited (there is no nation) and permanent residency can be revoked at any time, or as I pointed out - if they go abroad to study for any length of time, they can lose it. Unlike your mother or my friends - these people are NOT immigrants. They are not immigrating to a new country. They preceded the arrival of the Jewish settlers yet they should have less choice and rights? No matter how you cut and dice it - permanent residency is NOT the same as citizenship. Unlike citizenship - it can be revoked for any reason at any time. It can cause problems with traveling (example - in the US, under this administrations' various travel bans)

The idea that is is ONLY not fine when it's done in Israel is dishonest frankly and ignores the underlying issues.

But if you want to discuss WHY these people are being rejected for citizenship, you would have to stop blaming Israel and start putting the responsibility on Arabs. Are you willing to do that?

I kind of did approach that and pointed out it needs to be an open and transparent process - one that takes into account the inequalities of the justice system that encourages many to plea bargain rather than be exonerated through the courts. Are they rejected for minor offenses or major ones? What do we know?

 

[Coyote]

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Well, your reply was certainly predictable.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is.

Did you READ what I wrote, or are you so full of hate it in went in one ear and out the other? From this statement alone, it is obvious you did or did comprehend it.

And, without bothering with the rest of the paragraph, Since you have a,ready lied, I will point out I have long and consistently opposed any sort of multigenerational “right of return”.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

Voting in municipal elections is not the same as voting for the Knesset (are implying it is)? The Knesset makes the laws that they have to live by and that they have no say in.

There are other differences.

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

They can not vote in national elections, they don’t have passports, they remain stateless and exist in a legal “no man’s land”.

Which would you rather have?

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.[

If permanent residency status is so great, then why are so many East Jerusalem Arabs applying for it, and why is Israel shortening the process to one year (a reasonable fix imo): Israel to dramatically shorten East Jerusalemites’ path to citizenship – report

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

The only hate warped mind I see is yours.

You are confused. I said you had a warped mind and told bigoted lies. Try not to misquote me in the future.

I am not the least bit confused, nor do I hate anyone. I am applying your own words to you, in a very accurate manner. I am sorry it makes you uncomfortable. However, anytime your wish to engage in a real discussion, I will be happy to do so without your crappola

I have been discussing the issues and I have countered each of your arguments but instead of responding with substantial arguments, you choose to play the victim.

That's so blatantly dishonest I don't see a point in further communication with you. I wasted a good bit of time putting to gather a response on the issues, and countering your arguments only to get crappola (and very obvious not reading) back from you. And, given it's a pattern, I don't see it changing.

 

[Coyote]

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Well, your reply was certainly predictable.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is.

Did you READ what I wrote, or are you so full of hate it in went in one ear and out the other? From this statement alone, it is obvious you did or did comprehend it.

And, without bothering with the rest of the paragraph, Since you have a,ready lied, I will point out I have long and consistently opposed any sort of multigenerational “right of return”.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

Voting in municipal elections is not the same as voting for the Knesset (are implying it is)? The Knesset makes the laws that they have to live by and that they have no say in.

There are other differences.

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

They can not vote in national elections, they don’t have passports, they remain stateless and exist in a legal “no man’s land”.

Which would you rather have?

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.[

If permanent residency status is so great, then why are so many East Jerusalem Arabs applying for it, and why is Israel shortening the process to one year (a reasonable fix imo): Israel to dramatically shorten East Jerusalemites’ path to citizenship – report

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

The only hate warped mind I see is yours.

You are confused. I said you had a warped mind and told bigoted lies. Try not to misquote me in the future.

Please attempt the same on your part

Thanks

There you go again, playing the victim instead of addressing the issues at hand.[/QUOTE]



From the person whining about being "misquoted"? Grow up. You addressed nothing I posted, above.

For example:

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Well, your reply was certainly predictable.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is.

Did you READ what I wrote, or are you so full of hate it in went in one ear and out the other? From this statement alone, it is obvious you did or did comprehend it.

And, without bothering with the rest of the paragraph, Since you have a,ready lied, I will point out I have long and consistently opposed any sort of multigenerational “right of return”.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

Voting in municipal elections is not the same as voting for the Knesset (are implying it is)? The Knesset makes the laws that they have to live by and that they have no say in.

There are other differences.

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

They can not vote in national elections, they don’t have passports, they remain stateless and exist in a legal “no man’s land”.

Which would you rather have?

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.[

If permanent residency status is so great, then why are so many East Jerusalem Arabs applying for it, and why is Israel shortening the process to one year (a reasonable fix imo): Israel to dramatically shorten East Jerusalemites’ path to citizenship – report

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

The only hate warped mind I see is yours.

You are confused. I said you had a warped mind and told bigoted lies. Try not to misquote me in the future.

I am not the least bit confused, nor do I hate anyone. I am applying your own words to you, in a very accurate manner. I am sorry it makes you uncomfortable. However, anytime your wish to engage in a real discussion, I will be happy to do so without your crappola

I have been discussing the issues and I have countered each of your arguments but instead of responding with substantial arguments, you choose to play the victim.

That's so blatantly dishonest I don't see a point in further communication with you. I wasted a good bit of time putting to gather a response on the issues, and countering your arguments only to get crappola (and very obvious not reading) back from you. And, given it's a pattern, I don't see it changing.

No, you have not countered my arguments, you have whined about being a victim instead, just as you are doing now.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Well, your reply was certainly predictable.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is.

Did you READ what I wrote, or are you so full of hate it in went in one ear and out the other? From this statement alone, it is obvious you did or did comprehend it.

And, without bothering with the rest of the paragraph, Since you have a,ready lied, I will point out I have long and consistently opposed any sort of multigenerational “right of return”.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

Voting in municipal elections is not the same as voting for the Knesset (are implying it is)? The Knesset makes the laws that they have to live by and that they have no say in.

There are other differences.

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

They can not vote in national elections, they don’t have passports, they remain stateless and exist in a legal “no man’s land”.

Which would you rather have?

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.[

If permanent residency status is so great, then why are so many East Jerusalem Arabs applying for it, and why is Israel shortening the process to one year (a reasonable fix imo): Israel to dramatically shorten East Jerusalemites’ path to citizenship – report

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

The only hate warped mind I see is yours.

You are confused. I said you had a warped mind and told bigoted lies. Try not to misquote me in the future.

Please attempt the same on your part

Thanks

There you go again, playing the victim instead of addressing the issues at hand.

From the person whining about being "misquoted"? Grow up. You addressed nothing I posted, above.

For example:

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.
[/QUOTE]
Every country has rules for green card holders and if they are violated, the person breaks those rules, they are in danger of losing their status, and Israel is no different from other countries in that respect. What is different about Israel is, as you have noted, that it lives amidst a hostile population, so it must be vigilant about behaviors that might present security risks. The decision to revoke residency is not arbitrary, there are strict ruIes of procedure and the opportunity to appeal the decision if it was an error. It is ridiculous to suggest Israel should be less vigilant about its security because it is inconvenient for some Palestinian residents. Those who are willing to live in peace with the Jews can become citizens, and those who are not willing to live in peace with Jews do not even deserve residency.

From the same Haaretz article you quoted,

"Obtaining citizenship demands various procedures like swearing allegiance to the Jewish state and showing some knowledge of Hebrew, but rights groups say the main problem is the social taboo surrounding such a move: Palestinians feel that the process implies recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over East Jerusalem, which they claim as capital of their future state.

That is why most East Jerusalemites continue to live in the city as permanent residents, the same status afforded to non-Jewish foreigners who move to Israel (Jewish immigrants can easily obtain citizenship thanks to the Law of Return)."

Who are East Jerusalem’s ‘permanent residents’?

Since the Palestinian residents of Israel do not show the same interest in Israeli citizenship as you do, you obviously are not speaking for them but only for anti Israelis who pose as pro Palestinian in order to attack Israel.

 

[Coyote]

Well, your reply was certainly predictable.

Did you READ what I wrote, or are you so full of hate it in went in one ear and out the other? From this statement alone, it is obvious you did or did comprehend it.

And, without bothering with the rest of the paragraph, Since you have a,ready lied, I will point out I have long and consistently opposed any sort of multigenerational “right of return”.

Voting in municipal elections is not the same as voting for the Knesset (are implying it is)? The Knesset makes the laws that they have to live by and that they have no say in.

There are other differences.

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

They can not vote in national elections, they don’t have passports, they remain stateless and exist in a legal “no man’s land”.

Which would you rather have?

If permanent residency status is so great, then why are so many East Jerusalem Arabs applying for it, and why is Israel shortening the process to one year (a reasonable fix imo): Israel to dramatically shorten East Jerusalemites’ path to citizenship – report

The only hate warped mind I see is yours.

You are confused. I said you had a warped mind and told bigoted lies. Try not to misquote me in the future.

Please attempt the same on your part

Thanks

There you go again, playing the victim instead of addressing the issues at hand.

From the person whining about being "misquoted"? Grow up. You addressed nothing I posted, above.

For example:

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

Every country has rules for green card holders and if they are violated, the person breaks those rules, they are in danger of losing their status, and Israel is no different from other countries in that respect. What is different about Israel is, as you have noted, that it lives amidst a hostile population, so it must be vigilant about behaviors that might present security risks. The decision to revoke residency is not arbitrary, there are strict ruIes of procedure and the opportunity to appeal the decision if it was an error. It is ridiculous to suggest Israel should be less vigilant about its security because it is inconvenient for some Palestinian residents. Those who are willing to live in peace with the Jews can become citizens, and those who are not willing to live in peace with Jews do not even deserve residency.

From the same Haaretz article you quoted,

"Obtaining citizenship demands various procedures like swearing allegiance to the Jewish state and showing some knowledge of Hebrew, but rights groups say the main problem is the social taboo surrounding such a move: Palestinians feel that the process implies recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over East Jerusalem, which they claim as capital of their future state.

That is why most East Jerusalemites continue to live in the city as permanent residents, the same status afforded to non-Jewish foreigners who move to Israel (Jewish immigrants can easily obtain citizenship thanks to the Law of Return)."

Who are East Jerusalem’s ‘permanent residents’?

Since the Palestinian residents of Israel do not show the same interest in Israeli citizenship as you do, you obviously are not speaking for them but only for anti Israelis who pose as pro Palestinian in order to attack Israel.

[/QUOTE]

And how do you know this?

Their permanent citizenship status can be revoked if they leave the country for more than 7 years. One major difference from being a citizen. They can't leave, be an expat, and come back.

Also - you ignored the that in the article I linked to (dated within the past year) - many more Palestinians ARE seeking citizenship and Israel is making a concerted effort to shorten the process. That says to me there is a demand, at least in Jerusalem, and Israel is attempting to make it quicker. How do you know that the Palestinians in the annexed area do not want the same thing? And since we have no idea what Netanyahu plans on annexing, and you've presented nothing to indicate what it is yet - I think it's fair to assume he is standing by his September promise.

 

[Shusha]

Israel should not be forced to grant citizenship to people hostile to Israel. And people should not have citizenship forced upon them. For both these reasons, residency status with an option to apply for Israeli citizenship, and the option for Israel to deny such citizenship is the fairest and best answer.

Also your article about citizenship being "extremely hard to get" is out of date. Currently, applications for citizenship for Jerusalem Arab residents are processed in under one year with a success rate of just over 50%.

50% isn’t very high.

50% isn’t “extremely hard to get”.

I disagree on that. It’s a 50/50 chance. Not very good for something that is pretty vital to basic rights and protections.

No, its not "vital" to "basic rights and protections". As I said before, my mother lived in Canada as a permanent resident for 50 years and was just fine, thank you. The idea that it is somehow not fine when its done in Israel is suspicious, frankly.

Frankly, I find the fact that you view those two situations as the same rather suspicious.

I have a friend who is a permanent (green card) resident in the US, has been for years, probably actually 50. She is, however, a citizen of Germany and could back any time. One of the retired faculty members I work with is a British expat (we have lots of them) - he has a permanent residency, but he also maintains his citizenship with the UK. In none of those cases are they from a population unwillingly annexed by another nation who do not have a place to go back to in that same sense - "going back" would be leaving their place of origin and going to another land.

Seems to me people should be given a choice of citizenship - Israeli, or, maintaining Palestinian citizenship with permanent residency. But they ought to have that choice because even Palestinian citizenship is limited (there is no nation) and permanent residency can be revoked at any time, or as I pointed out - if they go abroad to study for any length of time, they can lose it. Unlike your mother or my friends - these people are NOT immigrants. They are not immigrating to a new country. They preceded the arrival of the Jewish settlers yet they should have less choice and rights? No matter how you cut and dice it - permanent residency is NOT the same as citizenship. Unlike citizenship - it can be revoked for any reason at any time. It can cause problems with traveling (example - in the US, under this administrations' various travel bans)

The idea that is is ONLY not fine when it's done in Israel is dishonest frankly and ignores the underlying issues.

But if you want to discuss WHY these people are being rejected for citizenship, you would have to stop blaming Israel and start putting the responsibility on Arabs. Are you willing to do that?

I kind of did approach that and pointed out it needs to be an open and transparent process - one that takes into account the inequalities of the justice system that encourages many to plea bargain rather than be exonerated through the courts. Are they rejected for minor offenses or major ones? What do we know?

I'm not sure you understand what I am arguing for and how it differs from what you are arguing for.

I'm suggesting that the Arab Palestinians who reside in areas annexed by Israel (which are likely to be small numbers) be granted permanent residency status and invited to apply for Israeli citizenship. Those who choose not to apply will retain their Palestinian citizenship and be permanent residents of Israel. Those who choose to apply and meet the criteria will be granted full Israeli citizenship.

Every bit of this revolves around CHOICE made by the people who are affected by the annexation. How is this in any way a bad thing? They get to choose.

The only ones who don't get to choose in this scenario are those who apply, but can't obtain citizenship due to involvement with terrorist groups or other activities harmful to Israel. And I think we would both agree that Israel should not be forced to take these people as citizens, yes?

 

[rylah]

Israel should not be forced to grant citizenship to people hostile to Israel. And people should not have citizenship forced upon them. For both these reasons, residency status with an option to apply for Israeli citizenship, and the option for Israel to deny such citizenship is the fairest and best answer.

Also your article about citizenship being "extremely hard to get" is out of date. Currently, applications for citizenship for Jerusalem Arab residents are processed in under one year with a success rate of just over 50%.

50% isn’t very high.

50% isn’t “extremely hard to get”.

I disagree on that. It’s a 50/50 chance. Not very good for something that is pretty vital to basic rights and protections.

No, its not "vital" to "basic rights and protections". As I said before, my mother lived in Canada as a permanent resident for 50 years and was just fine, thank you. The idea that it is somehow not fine when its done in Israel is suspicious, frankly.

Frankly, I find the fact that you view those two situations as the same rather suspicious.

I have a friend who is a permanent (green card) resident in the US, has been for years, probably actually 50. She is, however, a citizen of Germany and could back any time. One of the retired faculty members I work with is a British expat (we have lots of them) - he has a permanent residency, but he also maintains his citizenship with the UK. In none of those cases are they from a population unwillingly annexed by another nation who do not have a place to go back to in that same sense - "going back" would be leaving their place of origin and going to another land.

Seems to me people should be given a choice of citizenship - Israeli, or, maintaining Palestinian citizenship with permanent residency. But they ought to have that choice because even Palestinian citizenship is limited (there is no nation) and permanent residency can be revoked at any time, or as I pointed out - if they go abroad to study for any length of time, they can lose it. Unlike your mother or my friends - these people are NOT immigrants. They are not immigrating to a new country. They preceded the arrival of the Jewish settlers yet they should have less choice and rights? No matter how you cut and dice it - permanent residency is NOT the same as citizenship. Unlike citizenship - it can be revoked for any reason at any time. It can cause problems with traveling (example - in the US, under this administrations' various travel bans)

The idea that is is ONLY not fine when it's done in Israel is dishonest frankly and ignores the underlying issues.

But if you want to discuss WHY these people are being rejected for citizenship, you would have to stop blaming Israel and start putting the responsibility on Arabs. Are you willing to do that?

I kind of did approach that and pointed out it needs to be an open and transparent process - one that takes into account the inequalities of the justice system that encourages many to plea bargain rather than be exonerated through the courts. Are they rejected for minor offenses or major ones? What do we know?

There're 2 false assumptions in this comment:

1. "They're not immigrants, no country to go back to"
2. "Arabs preceded Jewish settlers in Judea"

Actually Arabs came from the same countries where they expelled the Jews,
and the only for Arab settlement to precede Jewish settlement, is there area had to be cleansed of Jews, which is exactly what the Arabs managed to do, for a short period, until Jewish re-settlement of Judea.

Vast majority of Arab settlements is on ruins of Jewish towns,
anyway they didn't build much, one city only - Ramla as Caliphates district center,
instead of a capital in Jerusalem...

 

[toomuchtime_]

You are confused. I said you had a warped mind and told bigoted lies. Try not to misquote me in the future.

Please attempt the same on your part

Thanks

There you go again, playing the victim instead of addressing the issues at hand.

From the person whining about being "misquoted"? Grow up. You addressed nothing I posted, above.

For example:

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

Every country has rules for green card holders and if they are violated, the person breaks those rules, they are in danger of losing their status, and Israel is no different from other countries in that respect. What is different about Israel is, as you have noted, that it lives amidst a hostile population, so it must be vigilant about behaviors that might present security risks. The decision to revoke residency is not arbitrary, there are strict ruIes of procedure and the opportunity to appeal the decision if it was an error. It is ridiculous to suggest Israel should be less vigilant about its security because it is inconvenient for some Palestinian residents. Those who are willing to live in peace with the Jews can become citizens, and those who are not willing to live in peace with Jews do not even deserve residency.

From the same Haaretz article you quoted,

"Obtaining citizenship demands various procedures like swearing allegiance to the Jewish state and showing some knowledge of Hebrew, but rights groups say the main problem is the social taboo surrounding such a move: Palestinians feel that the process implies recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over East Jerusalem, which they claim as capital of their future state.

That is why most East Jerusalemites continue to live in the city as permanent residents, the same status afforded to non-Jewish foreigners who move to Israel (Jewish immigrants can easily obtain citizenship thanks to the Law of Return)."

Who are East Jerusalem’s ‘permanent residents’?

Since the Palestinian residents of Israel do not show the same interest in Israeli citizenship as you do, you obviously are not speaking for them but only for anti Israelis who pose as pro Palestinian in order to attack Israel.

And how do you know this?

Their permanent citizenship status can be revoked if they leave the country for more than 7 years. One major difference from being a citizen. They can't leave, be an expat, and come back.

Also - you ignored the that in the article I linked to (dated within the past year) - many more Palestinians ARE seeking citizenship and Israel is making a concerted effort to shorten the process. That says to me there is a demand, at least in Jerusalem, and Israel is attempting to make it quicker. How do you know that the Palestinians in the annexed area do not want the same thing? And since we have no idea what Netanyahu plans on annexing, and you've presented nothing to indicate what it is yet - I think it's fair to assume he is standing by his September promise.[/QUOTE]
First, we know exactly what areas Israel plans on annexing because they are exactly the areas specified in President Trump's plan. US officials are in Israel now working out exactly how the process will go forward. Israel is eager for US recognition of sovereignty over the new lands, so it will not diverge from what the US has approved at this time.

The "surge" in applications the article reports is still just a few thousand out of 350,000, less than 1%, so interest in Israeli citizenship continues to be very low among Arab residents. This uptick in applications is a good thing. It shows that Arab residents in Jerusalem finally are beginning to understand that the status of the city is not going to change. And Israel is working to expedite these applications, another good sign. Since turnout of Arab residents of Jerusalem is very low in municipal elections, they obviously do not care much about voting in national elections, and since the "surge" in applications remains so low, they obviously are not troubled by the fact that if they leave Israel for too long, they could lose their residency permit. While you are clearly passionate about citizenship, the Arab residents in Jerusalem are clearly not, so if you are not speaking out for them, why are you speaking out about this?

 

[Coyote]

50% isn’t very high.

50% isn’t “extremely hard to get”.

I disagree on that. It’s a 50/50 chance. Not very good for something that is pretty vital to basic rights and protections.

No, its not "vital" to "basic rights and protections". As I said before, my mother lived in Canada as a permanent resident for 50 years and was just fine, thank you. The idea that it is somehow not fine when its done in Israel is suspicious, frankly.

Frankly, I find the fact that you view those two situations as the same rather suspicious.

I have a friend who is a permanent (green card) resident in the US, has been for years, probably actually 50. She is, however, a citizen of Germany and could back any time. One of the retired faculty members I work with is a British expat (we have lots of them) - he has a permanent residency, but he also maintains his citizenship with the UK. In none of those cases are they from a population unwillingly annexed by another nation who do not have a place to go back to in that same sense - "going back" would be leaving their place of origin and going to another land.

Seems to me people should be given a choice of citizenship - Israeli, or, maintaining Palestinian citizenship with permanent residency. But they ought to have that choice because even Palestinian citizenship is limited (there is no nation) and permanent residency can be revoked at any time, or as I pointed out - if they go abroad to study for any length of time, they can lose it. Unlike your mother or my friends - these people are NOT immigrants. They are not immigrating to a new country. They preceded the arrival of the Jewish settlers yet they should have less choice and rights? No matter how you cut and dice it - permanent residency is NOT the same as citizenship. Unlike citizenship - it can be revoked for any reason at any time. It can cause problems with traveling (example - in the US, under this administrations' various travel bans)

The idea that is is ONLY not fine when it's done in Israel is dishonest frankly and ignores the underlying issues.

But if you want to discuss WHY these people are being rejected for citizenship, you would have to stop blaming Israel and start putting the responsibility on Arabs. Are you willing to do that?

I kind of did approach that and pointed out it needs to be an open and transparent process - one that takes into account the inequalities of the justice system that encourages many to plea bargain rather than be exonerated through the courts. Are they rejected for minor offenses or major ones? What do we know?

There're 2 false assumptions in this comment:

1. "They're not immigrants, no country to go back to"
2. "Arabs preceded Jewish settlers in Judea"

Actually Arabs came from the same countries where they expelled the Jews,
and the only for Arab settlement to precede Jewish settlement, is there area had to be cleansed of Jews, which is exactly what the Arabs managed to do, for a short period, until Jewish re-settlement of Judea.

Vast majority of Arab settlements is on ruins of Jewish towns,
anyway they didn't build much, one city only - Ramla as Caliphates district center,
instead of a capital in Jerusalem...

This is where I disagree, and I doubt we will come to agreement here. Thousands of years pass. People move around. Many of the Arabs that call themselves Palestinians descended from the original inhabitants of the area, combined with an influx of migrants from other areas. Those people preceded the new Jewish re-settlement of that area after the founding of Israel as a state. So yes, the Jewish people are "reclaiming" ancient territory from thousands of years ago. And yes, in some of those cases they are re-establishing towns they were driven out of during the relatively recent conflicts. But they also moved into areas that have long been part of the Palestinian home. The Palestinians are not immigrants. That isn't a false assumption. And - in some of those areas, they did precede Jewish settlers.

Perhaps we can agree that it is 1) a mess in terms of rights and homeland and 2) the Palestinians themselves must find a way to live with the existence of Israel peacefully.

 

[rylah]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is. In UNGA resolution 194, which anti semites like you often falsely claim established an absolute right of return for the refugees, specified that only those who were willing to live in peace with Jews had that right. Israel will apply that same principle in determining which of the Palestinians who might live on the land to be annexed will be granted citizenship: hence the requirement to apply for citizenship. Those Palestinians who want to become Israeli citizens and who can show they are willing to live in peace with Jews and who will pledge allegiance to Israel will become citizens.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

Allegiance - is exactly what many are missing in these discussions.

Israel is demanded to grant citizenship,
and we see little mention of any obligations.

Pledge of allegiance, and criminal record are two components,
I would add Civil service :

• Ambulance, or various social work, this is very important both personal and national experience. If I'm not wrong basic requirement is 2.5 years.
• IDF / Border Police service - optional, a choice on both ends. This requires further profiling, while basic requirement is whole 3 years (or more if both parties choose so). I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands, are already involved and will be conscripted by default.

Residency should be the starting point, 4-5 years framework on a road to citizenship.
With voting in the regional committee, and social services of the state.

Pretty much the Zehut platform, watch from minute 2:00...

 

[Coyote]

Please attempt the same on your part

Thanks

There you go again, playing the victim instead of addressing the issues at hand.

From the person whining about being "misquoted"? Grow up. You addressed nothing I posted, above.

For example:

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

Every country has rules for green card holders and if they are violated, the person breaks those rules, they are in danger of losing their status, and Israel is no different from other countries in that respect. What is different about Israel is, as you have noted, that it lives amidst a hostile population, so it must be vigilant about behaviors that might present security risks. The decision to revoke residency is not arbitrary, there are strict ruIes of procedure and the opportunity to appeal the decision if it was an error. It is ridiculous to suggest Israel should be less vigilant about its security because it is inconvenient for some Palestinian residents. Those who are willing to live in peace with the Jews can become citizens, and those who are not willing to live in peace with Jews do not even deserve residency.

From the same Haaretz article you quoted,

"Obtaining citizenship demands various procedures like swearing allegiance to the Jewish state and showing some knowledge of Hebrew, but rights groups say the main problem is the social taboo surrounding such a move: Palestinians feel that the process implies recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over East Jerusalem, which they claim as capital of their future state.

That is why most East Jerusalemites continue to live in the city as permanent residents, the same status afforded to non-Jewish foreigners who move to Israel (Jewish immigrants can easily obtain citizenship thanks to the Law of Return)."

Who are East Jerusalem’s ‘permanent residents’?

Since the Palestinian residents of Israel do not show the same interest in Israeli citizenship as you do, you obviously are not speaking for them but only for anti Israelis who pose as pro Palestinian in order to attack Israel.

And how do you know this?

Their permanent citizenship status can be revoked if they leave the country for more than 7 years. One major difference from being a citizen. They can't leave, be an expat, and come back.

Also - you ignored the that in the article I linked to (dated within the past year) - many more Palestinians ARE seeking citizenship and Israel is making a concerted effort to shorten the process. That says to me there is a demand, at least in Jerusalem, and Israel is attempting to make it quicker. How do you know that the Palestinians in the annexed area do not want the same thing? And since we have no idea what Netanyahu plans on annexing, and you've presented nothing to indicate what it is yet - I think it's fair to assume he is standing by his September promise.

First, we know exactly what areas Israel plans on annexing because they are exactly the areas specified in President Trump's plan. US officials are in Israel now working out exactly how the process will go forward. Israel is eager for US recognition of sovereignty over the new lands, so it will not diverge from what the US has approved at this time.

The "surge" in applications the article reports is still just a few thousand out of 350,000, less than 1%, so interest in Israeli citizenship continues to be very low among Arab residents. This uptick in applications is a good thing. It shows that Arab residents in Jerusalem finally are beginning to understand that the status of the city is not going to change. And Israel is working to expedite these applications, another good sign. Since turnout of Arab residents of Jerusalem is very low in municipal elections, they obviously do not care much about voting in national elections, and since the "surge" in applications remains so low, they obviously are not troubled by the fact that if they leave Israel for too long, they could lose their residency permit. While you are clearly passionate about citizenship, the Arab residents in Jerusalem are clearly not, so if you are not speaking out for them, why are you speaking out about this?

[/QUOTE]

I'm going to ask again - how do you know this? Israel hasn't exactly accepted the plan either. From my point of view - they are using it as a means of validating annexation. Beyond that - what are they doing?

So how do you know they are only annexing according to what is laid out in that plan? All I've seen so far is what Netanyahu stated in the fall. If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

On the applications - I agree with your assessment (per the bolded).

I don't think you can claim that they don't care about the ability to be able to leave and lose their residency permits because they simply don't leave. There have been numerous court cases over this and how it has caused problems, particularly if they have family also in the West Bank.

I also am not sure that you are correct on those that want to request citizenship being so low (just a few thousand).

This is from 2017: East Jerusalem: Palestinians still want to become Israeli citizens

Since Trump’s declaration on Dec. 7, a long line of Palestinians seeking citizenship curls out daily from the Israeli Interior Ministry’s office in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and claimed by Palestinian leaders as the future capital of their own independent state.

The line stems from a social media news prank that claimed Israel was “imposing” citizenship on all of the city's Arab residents, who make up about 37% of Jerusalem's population.

The prank exploited real-life aspirations of Palestinians, most of whom still have not been granted citizenship and yearn for a better life here.

Ten years ago, it was taboo for Palestinians in Jerusalem to request Israeli citizenship, but now it is the norm, with thousands of new requests each year, accordiing to Israeli Interior Ministry figures. The wait time is about three years.

Increasing numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians are choosing to live in Jewish neighborhoods. Separately, greater numbers of local Palestinians are choosing to send their children to Arabic-language schools using Israeli curricula.

Between the 2016 and the 2017 school years, there was a 14% increase in Arab students studying for Israeli high school enrollment exams, according to municipal statistics. Parents want their children to be able to access Israeli universities.​

Actually reading this makes me rethink some things in regards to what I said about Israel not want to grant citizenship or being arbitrary. Perhaps this is changing as Palestinians, living within Israel, are changing.

RoccoR I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

If this is in response to the de-facto determination that Jerusalem is no longer on the table, then I think annexation might have the same affect in the WB. yes? no?

 

[Coyote]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is. In UNGA resolution 194, which anti semites like you often falsely claim established an absolute right of return for the refugees, specified that only those who were willing to live in peace with Jews had that right. Israel will apply that same principle in determining which of the Palestinians who might live on the land to be annexed will be granted citizenship: hence the requirement to apply for citizenship. Those Palestinians who want to become Israeli citizens and who can show they are willing to live in peace with Jews and who will pledge allegiance to Israel will become citizens.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

Allegiance - is exactly what many are missing in these discussions.

Israel is demanded to grant citizenship,
and we see little mention of any obligations.

Pledge of allegiance, and criminal record are two components,
I would add Civil service :

• Ambulance, or various social work, this is very important both personal and national experience. If I'm not wrong basic requirement is 2.5 years.
• IDF / Border Police service - optional, a choice on both ends. This requires further profiling, while basic requirement is whole 3 years (or more if both parties choose so). I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands, are already involved and will be conscripted by default.

Residency should be the starting point, 4-5 years framework on a road to citizenship.
With voting in the regional committee, and social services of the state.

Pretty much the Zehut platform, watch from minute 2:00...

Not sure I agree. For example, are the same requirements made of Jews seeking citizenship? That many years? And, also - these are people already living there....not migrating in seeking a new beginning.

I 100% agree on the idea of "responsibilities" - for example military service or the non-military equivalent (your first point) - should be part of being a citizen. To be honest - that should be for any country.

Criminal record I have an issue with (and for that, I wonder if taking something from Mandella's "truth and reconciliation" idea would be good). Because many Palestinians were under military justice, they did not and do not have the same rights as those under the civil system. Minors in particular, are urged to plea bargain in order to get home sooner. They do not have the same degree of representation. IMO, I think only heinous offenses should be considered - those guilty of terrorism, targeted at civilians, with the intention of killing them.

I will now watch the video

 

[Coyote]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is. In UNGA resolution 194, which anti semites like you often falsely claim established an absolute right of return for the refugees, specified that only those who were willing to live in peace with Jews had that right. Israel will apply that same principle in determining which of the Palestinians who might live on the land to be annexed will be granted citizenship: hence the requirement to apply for citizenship. Those Palestinians who want to become Israeli citizens and who can show they are willing to live in peace with Jews and who will pledge allegiance to Israel will become citizens.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

Allegiance - is exactly what many are missing in these discussions.

Israel is demanded to grant citizenship,
and we see little mention of any obligations.

Pledge of allegiance, and criminal record are two components,
I would add Civil service :

• Ambulance, or various social work, this is very important both personal and national experience. If I'm not wrong basic requirement is 2.5 years.
• IDF / Border Police service - optional, a choice on both ends. This requires further profiling, while basic requirement is whole 3 years (or more if both parties choose so). I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands, are already involved and will be conscripted by default.

Residency should be the starting point, 4-5 years framework on a road to citizenship.
With voting in the regional committee, and social services of the state.

Pretty much the Zehut platform, watch from minute 2:00...

I listened to the entire thing .... and am finding it intriguing but also, disturbing.

The first part...the "Israelization" of the state vs the "Judiazation"....either a state for all it's citizens vs. a state for Jewish people. Shouldn't any state - especially one which began with a diverse population - be a state for "all it's citizens"? Surely it can do so but still maintain an intrinsic Jewish identity?

It would seem that the main goal is to encourage immigration out first, permanent residency second, and a path to citizenship last and most difficult through a lengthy process. I don't agree with that. At the least it should mirror that of Jews in time span.

 

[Coyote]

50% isn’t very high.

50% isn’t “extremely hard to get”.

I disagree on that. It’s a 50/50 chance. Not very good for something that is pretty vital to basic rights and protections.

No, its not "vital" to "basic rights and protections". As I said before, my mother lived in Canada as a permanent resident for 50 years and was just fine, thank you. The idea that it is somehow not fine when its done in Israel is suspicious, frankly.

Frankly, I find the fact that you view those two situations as the same rather suspicious.

I have a friend who is a permanent (green card) resident in the US, has been for years, probably actually 50. She is, however, a citizen of Germany and could back any time. One of the retired faculty members I work with is a British expat (we have lots of them) - he has a permanent residency, but he also maintains his citizenship with the UK. In none of those cases are they from a population unwillingly annexed by another nation who do not have a place to go back to in that same sense - "going back" would be leaving their place of origin and going to another land.

Seems to me people should be given a choice of citizenship - Israeli, or, maintaining Palestinian citizenship with permanent residency. But they ought to have that choice because even Palestinian citizenship is limited (there is no nation) and permanent residency can be revoked at any time, or as I pointed out - if they go abroad to study for any length of time, they can lose it. Unlike your mother or my friends - these people are NOT immigrants. They are not immigrating to a new country. They preceded the arrival of the Jewish settlers yet they should have less choice and rights? No matter how you cut and dice it - permanent residency is NOT the same as citizenship. Unlike citizenship - it can be revoked for any reason at any time. It can cause problems with traveling (example - in the US, under this administrations' various travel bans)

The idea that is is ONLY not fine when it's done in Israel is dishonest frankly and ignores the underlying issues.

But if you want to discuss WHY these people are being rejected for citizenship, you would have to stop blaming Israel and start putting the responsibility on Arabs. Are you willing to do that?

I kind of did approach that and pointed out it needs to be an open and transparent process - one that takes into account the inequalities of the justice system that encourages many to plea bargain rather than be exonerated through the courts. Are they rejected for minor offenses or major ones? What do we know?

I'm not sure you understand what I am arguing for and how it differs from what you are arguing for.

I'm suggesting that the Arab Palestinians who reside in areas annexed by Israel (which are likely to be small numbers) be granted permanent residency status and invited to apply for Israeli citizenship. Those who choose not to apply will retain their Palestinian citizenship and be permanent residents of Israel. Those who choose to apply and meet the criteria will be granted full Israeli citizenship.

Every bit of this revolves around CHOICE made by the people who are affected by the annexation. How is this in any way a bad thing? They get to choose.

The only ones who don't get to choose in this scenario are those who apply, but can't obtain citizenship due to involvement with terrorist groups or other activities harmful to Israel. And I think we would both agree that Israel should not be forced to take these people as citizens, yes?

I guess I did misunderstand, looking more at words than ideas. Yes, I agree with what you are saying here - choice is vital, and the fact that Israel is attempting (in Jerusalem at least) to speed up the process is very positive.

 

[rylah]

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is. In UNGA resolution 194, which anti semites like you often falsely claim established an absolute right of return for the refugees, specified that only those who were willing to live in peace with Jews had that right. Israel will apply that same principle in determining which of the Palestinians who might live on the land to be annexed will be granted citizenship: hence the requirement to apply for citizenship. Those Palestinians who want to become Israeli citizens and who can show they are willing to live in peace with Jews and who will pledge allegiance to Israel will become citizens.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

Allegiance - is exactly what many are missing in these discussions.

Israel is demanded to grant citizenship,
and we see little mention of any obligations.

Pledge of allegiance, and criminal record are two components,
I would add Civil service :

• Ambulance, or various social work, this is very important both personal and national experience. If I'm not wrong basic requirement is 2.5 years.
• IDF / Border Police service - optional, a choice on both ends. This requires further profiling, while basic requirement is whole 3 years (or more if both parties choose so). I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands, are already involved and will be conscripted by default.

Residency should be the starting point, 4-5 years framework on a road to citizenship.
With voting in the regional committee, and social services of the state.

Pretty much the Zehut platform, watch from minute 2:00...

Not sure I agree. For example, are the same requirements made of Jews seeking citizenship? That many years? And, also - these are people already living there....not migrating in seeking a new beginning.

I 100% agree on the idea of "responsibilities" - for example military service or the non-military equivalent (your first point) - should be part of being a citizen. To be honest - that should be for any country.

Criminal record I have an issue with (and for that, I wonder if taking something from Mandella's "truth and reconciliation" idea would be good). Because many Palestinians were under military justice, they did not and do not have the same rights as those under the civil system. Minors in particular, are urged to plea bargain in order to get home sooner. They do not have the same degree of representation. IMO, I think only heinous offenses should be considered - those guilty of terrorism, targeted at civilians, with the intention of killing them.

I will now watch the video

This is basically the requirement for the newly wed non-Jewish partners with a different citizenship.
Jews have an almost default citizenship process, if a Jew comes alone straight from an enemy state,
without the ability to investigate any of the family or the official records, from what I've seen lately,
are refused entry at the border. Those who do fight for it.

And those are exceptional cases, not many of them, which is not like in our case,
but as far as I understand, the suggestion is along the lines of affirmative action, i.e. some form of erasure of the criminal record, starting on a clean page.

This is responsibility of the President, on each case,
and could be considered along the steps to acquiring citizenship.

In some other case, the Righteous of the nations, should accept special treatment as well.

 

[rylah]

50% isn’t “extremely hard to get”.

I disagree on that. It’s a 50/50 chance. Not very good for something that is pretty vital to basic rights and protections.

No, its not "vital" to "basic rights and protections". As I said before, my mother lived in Canada as a permanent resident for 50 years and was just fine, thank you. The idea that it is somehow not fine when its done in Israel is suspicious, frankly.

Frankly, I find the fact that you view those two situations as the same rather suspicious.

I have a friend who is a permanent (green card) resident in the US, has been for years, probably actually 50. She is, however, a citizen of Germany and could back any time. One of the retired faculty members I work with is a British expat (we have lots of them) - he has a permanent residency, but he also maintains his citizenship with the UK. In none of those cases are they from a population unwillingly annexed by another nation who do not have a place to go back to in that same sense - "going back" would be leaving their place of origin and going to another land.

Seems to me people should be given a choice of citizenship - Israeli, or, maintaining Palestinian citizenship with permanent residency. But they ought to have that choice because even Palestinian citizenship is limited (there is no nation) and permanent residency can be revoked at any time, or as I pointed out - if they go abroad to study for any length of time, they can lose it. Unlike your mother or my friends - these people are NOT immigrants. They are not immigrating to a new country. They preceded the arrival of the Jewish settlers yet they should have less choice and rights? No matter how you cut and dice it - permanent residency is NOT the same as citizenship. Unlike citizenship - it can be revoked for any reason at any time. It can cause problems with traveling (example - in the US, under this administrations' various travel bans)

The idea that is is ONLY not fine when it's done in Israel is dishonest frankly and ignores the underlying issues.

But if you want to discuss WHY these people are being rejected for citizenship, you would have to stop blaming Israel and start putting the responsibility on Arabs. Are you willing to do that?

I kind of did approach that and pointed out it needs to be an open and transparent process - one that takes into account the inequalities of the justice system that encourages many to plea bargain rather than be exonerated through the courts. Are they rejected for minor offenses or major ones? What do we know?

I'm not sure you understand what I am arguing for and how it differs from what you are arguing for.

I'm suggesting that the Arab Palestinians who reside in areas annexed by Israel (which are likely to be small numbers) be granted permanent residency status and invited to apply for Israeli citizenship. Those who choose not to apply will retain their Palestinian citizenship and be permanent residents of Israel. Those who choose to apply and meet the criteria will be granted full Israeli citizenship.

Every bit of this revolves around CHOICE made by the people who are affected by the annexation. How is this in any way a bad thing? They get to choose.

The only ones who don't get to choose in this scenario are those who apply, but can't obtain citizenship due to involvement with terrorist groups or other activities harmful to Israel. And I think we would both agree that Israel should not be forced to take these people as citizens, yes?

I guess I did misunderstand, looking more at words than ideas. Yes, I agree with what you are saying here - choice is vital, and the fact that Israel is attempting (in Jerusalem at least) to speed up the process is very positive.

Maybe Hamas supporters gave up applying for Israeli citizenship.

 

[rylah]

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is. In UNGA resolution 194, which anti semites like you often falsely claim established an absolute right of return for the refugees, specified that only those who were willing to live in peace with Jews had that right. Israel will apply that same principle in determining which of the Palestinians who might live on the land to be annexed will be granted citizenship: hence the requirement to apply for citizenship. Those Palestinians who want to become Israeli citizens and who can show they are willing to live in peace with Jews and who will pledge allegiance to Israel will become citizens.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

Allegiance - is exactly what many are missing in these discussions.

Israel is demanded to grant citizenship,
and we see little mention of any obligations.

Pledge of allegiance, and criminal record are two components,
I would add Civil service :

• Ambulance, or various social work, this is very important both personal and national experience. If I'm not wrong basic requirement is 2.5 years.
• IDF / Border Police service - optional, a choice on both ends. This requires further profiling, while basic requirement is whole 3 years (or more if both parties choose so). I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands, are already involved and will be conscripted by default.

Residency should be the starting point, 4-5 years framework on a road to citizenship.
With voting in the regional committee, and social services of the state.

Pretty much the Zehut platform, watch from minute 2:00...

I listened to the entire thing .... and am finding it intriguing but also, disturbing.

The first part...the "Israelization" of the state vs the "Judiazation"....either a state for all it's citizens vs. a state for Jewish people. Shouldn't any state - especially one which began with a diverse population - be a state for "all it's citizens"? Surely it can do so but still maintain an intrinsic Jewish identity?

It would seem that the main goal is to encourage immigration out first, permanent residency second, and a path to citizenship last and most difficult through a lengthy process. I don't agree with that. At the least it should mirror that of Jews in time span.

"Israelization"..."Judaization"...this is all gibberish.
The Jewish state is already a state of all its citizens.
Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.

One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant.

This is not a shop of privileges, but a process of a hostile population being separated from militants, given an option of residency and further citizenship.

Let's not talk in terms of warming up popcorn in a micro.

 

[Coyote]

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is. In UNGA resolution 194, which anti semites like you often falsely claim established an absolute right of return for the refugees, specified that only those who were willing to live in peace with Jews had that right. Israel will apply that same principle in determining which of the Palestinians who might live on the land to be annexed will be granted citizenship: hence the requirement to apply for citizenship. Those Palestinians who want to become Israeli citizens and who can show they are willing to live in peace with Jews and who will pledge allegiance to Israel will become citizens.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

Allegiance - is exactly what many are missing in these discussions.

Israel is demanded to grant citizenship,
and we see little mention of any obligations.

Pledge of allegiance, and criminal record are two components,
I would add Civil service :

• Ambulance, or various social work, this is very important both personal and national experience. If I'm not wrong basic requirement is 2.5 years.
• IDF / Border Police service - optional, a choice on both ends. This requires further profiling, while basic requirement is whole 3 years (or more if both parties choose so). I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands, are already involved and will be conscripted by default.

Residency should be the starting point, 4-5 years framework on a road to citizenship.
With voting in the regional committee, and social services of the state.

Pretty much the Zehut platform, watch from minute 2:00...

I listened to the entire thing .... and am finding it intriguing but also, disturbing.

The first part...the "Israelization" of the state vs the "Judiazation"....either a state for all it's citizens vs. a state for Jewish people. Shouldn't any state - especially one which began with a diverse population - be a state for "all it's citizens"? Surely it can do so but still maintain an intrinsic Jewish identity?

It would seem that the main goal is to encourage immigration out first, permanent residency second, and a path to citizenship last and most difficult through a lengthy process. I don't agree with that. At the least it should mirror that of Jews in time span.

"Israelization"..."Judaization"...this is all gibberish.
The Jewish state is already a state of all its citizens.
Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.
One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant.

This is not a shop of privileges, but a process of a hostile population being separated from militants, given an option of residency and further citizenship.

Let's not talk in terms of warming up popcorn in a micro.

I will put this up front, Rylah - sometimes I think we disagree (violently) because like two ships passing in the night, we don't understand each other.

Can you tell me what you mean by this?''
Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.
One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant.

 

[Coyote]

I disagree on that. It’s a 50/50 chance. Not very good for something that is pretty vital to basic rights and protections.

No, its not "vital" to "basic rights and protections". As I said before, my mother lived in Canada as a permanent resident for 50 years and was just fine, thank you. The idea that it is somehow not fine when its done in Israel is suspicious, frankly.

Frankly, I find the fact that you view those two situations as the same rather suspicious.

I have a friend who is a permanent (green card) resident in the US, has been for years, probably actually 50. She is, however, a citizen of Germany and could back any time. One of the retired faculty members I work with is a British expat (we have lots of them) - he has a permanent residency, but he also maintains his citizenship with the UK. In none of those cases are they from a population unwillingly annexed by another nation who do not have a place to go back to in that same sense - "going back" would be leaving their place of origin and going to another land.

Seems to me people should be given a choice of citizenship - Israeli, or, maintaining Palestinian citizenship with permanent residency. But they ought to have that choice because even Palestinian citizenship is limited (there is no nation) and permanent residency can be revoked at any time, or as I pointed out - if they go abroad to study for any length of time, they can lose it. Unlike your mother or my friends - these people are NOT immigrants. They are not immigrating to a new country. They preceded the arrival of the Jewish settlers yet they should have less choice and rights? No matter how you cut and dice it - permanent residency is NOT the same as citizenship. Unlike citizenship - it can be revoked for any reason at any time. It can cause problems with traveling (example - in the US, under this administrations' various travel bans)

The idea that is is ONLY not fine when it's done in Israel is dishonest frankly and ignores the underlying issues.

But if you want to discuss WHY these people are being rejected for citizenship, you would have to stop blaming Israel and start putting the responsibility on Arabs. Are you willing to do that?

I kind of did approach that and pointed out it needs to be an open and transparent process - one that takes into account the inequalities of the justice system that encourages many to plea bargain rather than be exonerated through the courts. Are they rejected for minor offenses or major ones? What do we know?

I'm not sure you understand what I am arguing for and how it differs from what you are arguing for.

I'm suggesting that the Arab Palestinians who reside in areas annexed by Israel (which are likely to be small numbers) be granted permanent residency status and invited to apply for Israeli citizenship. Those who choose not to apply will retain their Palestinian citizenship and be permanent residents of Israel. Those who choose to apply and meet the criteria will be granted full Israeli citizenship.

Every bit of this revolves around CHOICE made by the people who are affected by the annexation. How is this in any way a bad thing? They get to choose.

The only ones who don't get to choose in this scenario are those who apply, but can't obtain citizenship due to involvement with terrorist groups or other activities harmful to Israel. And I think we would both agree that Israel should not be forced to take these people as citizens, yes?

I guess I did misunderstand, looking more at words than ideas. Yes, I agree with what you are saying here - choice is vital, and the fact that Israel is attempting (in Jerusalem at least) to speed up the process is very positive.

Maybe Hamas supporters gave up applying for Israeli citizenship.

They would not, in the first place, would they?