To Vaccinate or Not To Vaccinate

[JakeStarkey]

The public safety issue trumps parental rights.

Remove children from the home to never return if the parents refuse even once.

would that apply to all of the unvaccinated illegals in our school systems today too?

Sure., unvaccinated kids legals or illegals are public safety hazards.

 

[Flopper]

The alternative is a lot more death.

I'm not interested in my kids dying from influenza. I don't want them to die of measles. I don't want them to die of a raging staph infection 18 hours after I decide that it's *more healthy* for my kid to fight off the infection on his or her own.

What about Autism, SIDS, and Shaken Baby Syndrome? Haven't you read the testimonials?

Testimonials are not scientific evidence. There are testimonials out there that claim deaths were caused by watching television, using cell phones, and exposure to forts.

Some myths just won't go away such as the belief that vaccines cause SIDS and Autism. This belief came about because a moderate proportion of children who die of SIDS or were diagnosed with Autism had recently been vaccinated. On the surface, this seems to point toward a causal connection. This logic is faulty however; you might as well say that eating bread causes car crashes, since most drivers who crash their cars could probably be shown to have eaten bread within the past 24 hours.

This is first time I've heard Shaken Baby Syndrome blamed on a vaccine. It must have come from a defense attorney attempting to get his client off a murder charge. Babies have weak neck muscles and often struggle to support their heavy heads. If a baby is forcefully shaken, his or her fragile brain moves back and forth inside the skull. This causes bruising, swelling and bleeding. Shaken baby syndrome usually occurs when a parent or caregiver severely shakes a baby or toddler due to frustration or anger — often because the child won't stop crying. Nothing justifies shaking a child.

Vaccines are actually very safe, despite implications to the contrary in many anti-vaccine publications. Most vaccine adverse events are minor and temporary, such as a sore arm or mild fever. These can often be controlled by taking paracetamol after vaccination. More serious adverse events occur rarely (on the order of one per thousands to one per millions of doses), and some are so rare that risk cannot be accurately assessed. As for vaccines causing death, again so few deaths can plausibly be attributed to vaccines that it is hard to assess the risk statistically. However, we know beyond a doubt that vaccines have saved untold millions of lives and will continue to do so in spite of articles by reporters seeking headlines, a quick buck, or just controversy. Unfortunately there are parents that listen to this trash and the kids pay the price.

Dear Dr. Flopper, Because this is the internet even if we were both young working class guys with no conflict of interest we'd have no way of knowing. That means our opinions don't carry much weight here.


Anyone can write and publish science fiction. Do you really think a scientist needs to tell you he's a scientist? A testimonial can be just as scientific as any other study. Technically the only difference is that it is not be published in a medical journal. “Peer-reviewed medical journals are generally considered to be a source of unbiased and reliable information about drugs. But at the same time, most medical journals contain advertisements, almost all of which are for drugs, and which are, by their very nature, biased toward promoting sales of that drug.”


As consumers how do we know that vaccines are as safe and effective as their manufacturers say they are? Who says “Shaken baby syndrome usually occurs when a parent or caregiver severely shakes a baby or toddler due to frustration or anger — often because the child won't stop crying.”? Doctors have lawyers to. This is a simple he said she said but the pharmaceutical industry has unlimited funds and we don't.


If a vaccine can cause a sore arm or mild fever it is certainly capable of much more. How do we the consumer know that “more serious adverse events only occur rarely”? Who writes the death certificate? Who says what is plausible? How do “we know beyond a doubt that vaccines have saved untold millions of lives and will continue to do so”? How do we know the horror stories told by our neighbors are untrue?

Anyone, such as a parent, a health care provider, or friend of the patient, who suspects an association between a vaccination and an adverse event may report that event to the CDC. The CDC will then investigates the event and try to find out whether the adverse event was in fact caused by the vaccination. Many CDC studies are based on these reports. Any testimonial should contain the report to the CDC and their reply.

The safety of vaccines are not determined by just studies but by extensive testing before release and on going monitor after release.

After laboratory tests which usually includes animal testing which usually takes 1 to 2 years and pre-clincal studies which take 2 to 4 years, and approval by the FDA, a vaccine enters a 3 phase test procedure.

1. In Phase I the vaccine is tested on 20 to 80 candidates to determine the safety and determine if there are any adverse reactions. If the vaccine will given to children, it must be tested on adults, then children of various age groups. If the vaccine does not past, it is goes back to research.

2. In Phase II, a larger group of several hundred individuals participate. The purpose is to determine the safety, effectiveness, dosage, delivery, and schedule of immunization. Candidates that pass move on to next phase.

3. In Phase III, the vaccine moves into large scale trials involving thousands to tens of thousands of people. These trials are randomized and are double blind using a placebo. If a reaction occurs in as few 1 in 10,000, then the the vaccine must retested on 60,000 people. It is in this phase that a monitoring system is setup to detect adverse events that may not occur in subjects for years.

The testing process will normally take 3 to 5 years. A vaccine can not be licensed without completing the 3 phase test successful. After licensing, the manufacture will do a controlled release with monitoring by the FDA.

Vaccines are probably the most thoroughly tested and monitored of all drugs on the market. After the final release of a vaccine, the CDC will investigate all reports of adverse reactions to a vaccine. It is the CDC's responsibility to recommend to the FDA, that an unsafe vaccine be pulled immediately or recommend appropriate scientific studies and or testing be done.

Vaccine Development Testing and Regulation mdash History of Vaccines

Thanks for the effort.
8 paragraphs, a link, and still no answer. This is just a comparison to other drugs. Well, these other drugs have their laundry list of horrific side effects plastered across my TV set every night. That doesn't say much for the vaccine industry.

I reported an auto repair shop to the BBB once. They agreed with the guy who ripped me off.

You apparently didn't read either my post or the link which describes the testing prior to release of the vaccine and monitoring after release. There is no comparison to other drugs.

To your questions, "As consumers how do we know that vaccines are as safe and effective as their manufacturers say they are? Who says “Shaken baby syndrome usually occurs when a parent or caregiver severely shakes a baby or toddler due to frustration or anger — often because the child won't stop crying.”?
The safety of vaccines is assured first by lab testing, FDA review, trials run by independent labs, and finally on going monitoring.

In the trials, tens of thousands of people are given the vaccine to determine the safety and effectiveness. If there is only one adverse reaction in 10,000 subjects, the entire trial is repeated with 6 times as many subjects. Every adverse reaction must be researched and cleared by an independent panel. The vaccine is licensed only after it has gone through years of trials.

After release, the vaccine is continuously monitored and reported adverse reactions must be investigated by the CDC or independent labs.

Shaken Baby Syndrome is well understood and in almost every case it can be traced to a care giver violently shaking the child. There is no scientific evidence that vaccines in anyway cause or contribute to Shaken Baby Syndrome.

Even thou there are mountains of scientific evidence that support the safety of vaccines, there are and will probably always be naysayers who use unexplained incidents, opinions, and cooked up studies as scientific evidence to support their claim.

Of course this not is not limited to vaccines or even medical science. Just about every field of human accomplishment is fair game. The internet which gives everyone a soap box makes it possible. Distrust of big government, big business, institutions of science and education, and a desire for recognition and financial gain fuel cottage industries on the internet which are exempt from any responsibility for the harm they cause. I guess that's the price we pay today for completely freedom of speech and expression.

 

[HenryBHough]

When vaccines are manufactured only by government it'll be soon enough to distrust them.

 

[koshergrl]

When that happens, they will just stop vaccinating the masses. Best form of population control amongst the undesirables.

 

[Flopper]

I'll say it again “a real scientist doesn't need to keep reminding you that he's a scientist”.

They do if someone doesn't understand what that means. However, it doesn't help to keep saying "I'm a real scientist" to someone who has no clue what that means.

If, as you say “students are taught the fundamentals of scientific method such as hypothesis testing, reproducibility, etc.” in high school why would it be so impossible for a testimonial to be scientific?

This paragraphs proves you know nothing, at all, about science. The scientific method is all about reproducibility of studies. However the creation of studies are often predicated on testimonies of people (or anecdotes). For example: You're sitting under a tree and an apple falls on your head. You may think...what made the apple fall? Then you may come up with a theory. In your case, your theory would be that since you got a vaccine today, the vaccine must have caused the apple to fall on your head. Then, if you were a real scientist, you would design a study of those who got a vaccine and those who didn't, and compare who got hit in the head with an apple. If your study showed that those who got a vaccine were, indeed, at much higher risk of getting hit on the head with an apple (like Wakefield's study published in the BMJ linking vaccines to autism), then other people would be able reproduce your study and get the same results. This was the flaw with Wakefield's study...he purposefully falsified the data (by choosing his study entrants) so therefore his results were not reproducible.

There is your high school lesson today on how science goes from a personal testimony to reproducible study.

Science then goes one step further to try to explain the WHY behind the population data. When we can put together the population data (who gets hit in the head by the apple) with the biological/chemical/physical science behind the apple and gravity, then we have a clearer scientific picture.

The scientific method is also easily looked up on the net.

It doesn't mean that the reader understands it. That's why I suggested you take a high-school biology class, so someone could attempt to TEACH it to you.

Testimonials are often called anecdotal [an′əkdot′əl] Etymology: Gk, anekdotos, unpublished.

See my above paragraph. Testimonials/anecdotes are important to START scientific research. I'll give you a true life example. Pharma came up with a new way to anti-coagulate patients by blocking a receptor on our platelets and called the medicine Plavix. Studies showed that while there was a greater risk of bleeding, Plavix greatly reduced follow-on heart attacks/stent placement. The medicine was a great success for most, and saved many lives from heart attacks, although it did cause some increase in morbidity and mortality via bleeding.

But then we began getting anecdotal reports of people who are on plavix who reclotted their stents quickly. More studies were done, but these studies still showed that Plavix helped most people....so we began studying the differences between the people who responded to Plavix, and those who didn't. We found that those who didn't respond to Plavix fall into a small genetic cohort of people with a different molecule on their platelets.

Moral of story here: Anecdote of Plavix not working on a few people led to more scientific studies which led to a greater understanding of not only plavix, but of human genetics.

Anecdote of vaccines causing autism led to ENORMOUS amount of studies, all of which (except for Wakefield study which was debunked) show that vaccines work to prevent millions of deaths, have relatively common mild side effects, and very rare serious side effects.

But rawmilkmike wants everyone to believe that vaccines cause shaken baby syndrome.

Retinal hemorrhage can be caused by CPR. “Of the 22 patients, 6 (27%) had retinal hemorrhages at the time of CPR-CC. Of these 6 patients, 5 had risk factors for retinal hemorrhages. The sixth patient had no risk factors and may have represented the only true case of retinal hemorrhages due to CPR-CC.”

Are you sure you don't want to cause retinal hemorrhage on vaccines??

CPR is traumatic. Retinal hemorrhage is almost always caused by trauma (could also be caused by hypertension, hypo coagulable states, and probably a few other very uncommon things).

How do hyperbole and ad hominem fit into the scientific method?

Hyperbole, like anecdotes and parables, can help teach. But then, some people are unteachable.....

So Hyperbole is part of your “scientific method”?

In your case, your theory would be that since you got a vaccine today, the vaccine must have caused the “virtual eradication of smallpox?”

High-school physics and biology were my favorite subjects.

“We found that those who didn't respond to Plavix fall into a small genetic cohort …” So you work for a drug company?

My wife and I have an understanding that when she takes my 4 year old daughter and my 8 year old son for their vaccinations I don't want to know about it because it makes me cry.

Couldn't “shaken baby syndrome” be classified as a “rare serious side effect” ?

from cdc dot gov - DTaP vaccine side-effects

Moderate Problems

• Seizure (jerking or staring) (about 1 child out of 14,000)
• Non-stop crying, for 3 hours or more (up to about 1 child out of 1,000)
• High fever, 105 degrees Fahrenheit or higher (about 1 child out of 16,000)

Severe Problems
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses) Several other severe problems have been reported after DTaP vaccine. These include:

• Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
• Permanent brain damage.

As you say above less than 1 in a million have serious allergic reactions. Most of these reactions can be traced to giving the vaccination to children who are sick or have compromised immune systems.

I'll say it again “a real scientist doesn't need to keep reminding you that he's a scientist”.

They do if someone doesn't understand what that means. However, it doesn't help to keep saying "I'm a real scientist" to someone who has no clue what that means.

If, as you say “students are taught the fundamentals of scientific method such as hypothesis testing, reproducibility, etc.” in high school why would it be so impossible for a testimonial to be scientific?

This paragraphs proves you know nothing, at all, about science. The scientific method is all about reproducibility of studies. However the creation of studies are often predicated on testimonies of people (or anecdotes). For example: You're sitting under a tree and an apple falls on your head. You may think...what made the apple fall? Then you may come up with a theory. In your case, your theory would be that since you got a vaccine today, the vaccine must have caused the apple to fall on your head. Then, if you were a real scientist, you would design a study of those who got a vaccine and those who didn't, and compare who got hit in the head with an apple. If your study showed that those who got a vaccine were, indeed, at much higher risk of getting hit on the head with an apple (like Wakefield's study published in the BMJ linking vaccines to autism), then other people would be able reproduce your study and get the same results. This was the flaw with Wakefield's study...he purposefully falsified the data (by choosing his study entrants) so therefore his results were not reproducible.

There is your high school lesson today on how science goes from a personal testimony to reproducible study.

Science then goes one step further to try to explain the WHY behind the population data. When we can put together the population data (who gets hit in the head by the apple) with the biological/chemical/physical science behind the apple and gravity, then we have a clearer scientific picture.

The scientific method is also easily looked up on the net.

It doesn't mean that the reader understands it. That's why I suggested you take a high-school biology class, so someone could attempt to TEACH it to you.

Testimonials are often called anecdotal [an′əkdot′əl] Etymology: Gk, anekdotos, unpublished.

See my above paragraph. Testimonials/anecdotes are important to START scientific research. I'll give you a true life example. Pharma came up with a new way to anti-coagulate patients by blocking a receptor on our platelets and called the medicine Plavix. Studies showed that while there was a greater risk of bleeding, Plavix greatly reduced follow-on heart attacks/stent placement. The medicine was a great success for most, and saved many lives from heart attacks, although it did cause some increase in morbidity and mortality via bleeding.

But then we began getting anecdotal reports of people who are on plavix who reclotted their stents quickly. More studies were done, but these studies still showed that Plavix helped most people....so we began studying the differences between the people who responded to Plavix, and those who didn't. We found that those who didn't respond to Plavix fall into a small genetic cohort of people with a different molecule on their platelets.

Moral of story here: Anecdote of Plavix not working on a few people led to more scientific studies which led to a greater understanding of not only plavix, but of human genetics.

Anecdote of vaccines causing autism led to ENORMOUS amount of studies, all of which (except for Wakefield study which was debunked) show that vaccines work to prevent millions of deaths, have relatively common mild side effects, and very rare serious side effects.

But rawmilkmike wants everyone to believe that vaccines cause shaken baby syndrome.

Retinal hemorrhage can be caused by CPR. “Of the 22 patients, 6 (27%) had retinal hemorrhages at the time of CPR-CC. Of these 6 patients, 5 had risk factors for retinal hemorrhages. The sixth patient had no risk factors and may have represented the only true case of retinal hemorrhages due to CPR-CC.”

Are you sure you don't want to cause retinal hemorrhage on vaccines??

CPR is traumatic. Retinal hemorrhage is almost always caused by trauma (could also be caused by hypertension, hypo coagulable states, and probably a few other very uncommon things).

How do hyperbole and ad hominem fit into the scientific method?

Hyperbole, like anecdotes and parables, can help teach. But then, some people are unteachable.....

So Hyperbole is part of your “scientific method”?

In your case, your theory would be that since you got a vaccine today, the vaccine must have caused the “virtual eradication of smallpox?”

High-school physics and biology were my favorite subjects.

“We found that those who didn't respond to Plavix fall into a small genetic cohort …” So you work for a drug company?

My wife and I have an understanding that when she takes my 4 year old daughter and my 8 year old son for their vaccinations I don't want to know about it because it makes me cry.

Couldn't “shaken baby syndrome” be classified as a “rare serious side effect” ?

from cdc dot gov - DTaP vaccine side-effects

Moderate Problems

• Seizure (jerking or staring) (about 1 child out of 14,000)
• Non-stop crying, for 3 hours or more (up to about 1 child out of 1,000)
• High fever, 105 degrees Fahrenheit or higher (about 1 child out of 16,000)

Severe Problems
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses) Several other severe problems have been reported after DTaP vaccine. These include:

• Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
• Permanent brain damage.

1 in million. Do you realize the chance of a child dying is about 1 in 12,000. There are a hell of a lot more important things parents should be concerned about than the safety of vaccines.

To evaluate a vaccine, you have to compare today against the time before the vaccine

In 1916, 12,000 people died in the US from measles.
In 2011, there were no deaths in the US due measles.

In 1930, there were over 500 reported deaths from whooping cough
In 2011, there were 10 deaths.

In 1921, there were 15,520 deaths from Diphtheria
Between 2004 and 2008, there were no reported cases of diphtheria

In 1947, there were 6280 cases of Tetanus
Between 2001 and 2008, there were 193.

Of course there were other advances in medical science that have reduce the number of occurrences but the dramatic reduction in occurrences has to be attributed to the vaccine.

 

[Wyld Kard]

How Pharmaceutical Companies Hide the Dangers of Vaccines from Parents

U.S. Government Says Vaccines are Dangerous

I visited the second website and read the Op-Ed piece by Dr. Mercola, wherein he attempts to explain a 600+ page medical report.

Dr. Mercola offers a number of wholistic health alternatives that visitors to this site can purchase.

Including Tanning beds

Tanning Beds - Top Sellers - Household - Mercola.com

You seriously want to take medical advise from a physician that sells tanning beds? (Free shipping for orders over $49)

He sells tanning beds as well, so what!

That shouldn't be a reason to dismiss the article.

 

[Flopper]

How Pharmaceutical Companies Hide the Dangers of Vaccines from Parents

U.S. Government Says Vaccines are Dangerous

I visited the second website and read the Op-Ed piece by Dr. Mercola, wherein he attempts to explain a 600+ page medical report.

Dr. Mercola offers a number of wholistic health alternatives that visitors to this site can purchase.

Including Tanning beds

Tanning Beds - Top Sellers - Household - Mercola.com

You seriously want to take medical advise from a physician that sells tanning beds? (Free shipping for orders over $49)

He sells tanning beds as well, so what!

That shouldn't be a reason to dismiss the article.

No, the following is:

He's an alternative medicine proponent and web entrepreneur who makes his living selling controversial dietary supplements and medical devices. His business depends on people who distrust the medical community and he does everything in his power to promote that distrust.

A 2006 BusinessWeek editorial called his marketing practices as "relying on slick promotion, clever use of information, and scare tactics. In 2005, 2006, and 2011, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration warned Mercola and his company to stop making illegal claims regarding his products' ability to detect, prevent and treat disease. The medical watchdog site Quackwatch has criticized Mercola for making "unsubstantiated claims and clashing with those of leading medical and public health organizations [and making] many unsubstantiated recommendations for dietary supplements."

In the 19th century, this guy would have been selling snake oil out a wagon. I feel sorry for anyone that makes medical decision based on Mercola opinion.

Joseph Mercola - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

:

 

[Noomi]

Hard to believe that some people can stand back and watch as others die of horrible diseases that can be prevented with vaccinations, but still refuse to vaccinate their own children because on an ignorant belief that their precious one might get autism because one child was diagnosed with it after getting their shots.

Vaccinate your fucking kids.

 

[sameech]

Hard to believe that some people can stand back and watch as others die of horrible diseases that can be prevented with vaccinations, but still refuse to vaccinate their own children because on an ignorant belief that their precious one might get autism because one child was diagnosed with it after getting their shots.

Vaccinate your fucking kids.

Vaccinate you and yours and you won't have to worry about people who don't vaccinate theirs. Pretty simple.

 

[Noomi]

Hard to believe that some people can stand back and watch as others die of horrible diseases that can be prevented with vaccinations, but still refuse to vaccinate their own children because on an ignorant belief that their precious one might get autism because one child was diagnosed with it after getting their shots.

Vaccinate your fucking kids.

Vaccinate you and yours and you won't have to worry about people who don't vaccinate theirs. Pretty simple.

There are some people who cannot be vaccinated, or are too young to be vaccinated.

Herd immunity. Ever heard of it?

 

[Noomi]

 

[sameech]

Hard to believe that some people can stand back and watch as others die of horrible diseases that can be prevented with vaccinations, but still refuse to vaccinate their own children because on an ignorant belief that their precious one might get autism because one child was diagnosed with it after getting their shots.

Vaccinate your fucking kids.

Vaccinate you and yours and you won't have to worry about people who don't vaccinate theirs. Pretty simple.

There are some people who cannot be vaccinated, or are too young to be vaccinated.

Herd immunity. Ever heard of it?

Then let your herd immunity protect those who do not want to be vaccinated too. Let enough people die off from something and vaccinations will be very popular again. No big deal. There are too many people on this planet already. We can afford for that herd to be thinned by natural selection.

 

[Samson]

How Pharmaceutical Companies Hide the Dangers of Vaccines from Parents

U.S. Government Says Vaccines are Dangerous

I visited the second website and read the Op-Ed piece by Dr. Mercola, wherein he attempts to explain a 600+ page medical report.

Dr. Mercola offers a number of wholistic health alternatives that visitors to this site can purchase.

Including Tanning beds

Tanning Beds - Top Sellers - Household - Mercola.com

You seriously want to take medical advise from a physician that sells tanning beds? (Free shipping for orders over $49)

He sells tanning beds as well, so what!

That shouldn't be a reason to dismiss the article.

A Physician that sells tanning beds!?

I'll put my trust in the Center for Disease Control (which doesn't profit from selling tanning beds:

Indoor Tanning Is Not Safe

Using a tanning bed, booth, or sunlamp to get tan is called indoor tanning. Indoor tanning can cause skin cancers including melanoma (the deadliest type of skin cancer), basal cell carcinoma, and squamous cell carcinoma. Exposure to ultraviolet (UV) radiation also can cause cataracts and cancers of the eye (ocular melanoma).​

CDC - Indoor Tanning - Skin Cancer

Case Closed.

 

[Samson]

Hard to believe that some people can stand back and watch as others die of horrible diseases that can be prevented with vaccinations, but still refuse to vaccinate their own children because on an ignorant belief that their precious one might get autism because one child was diagnosed with it after getting their shots.

Vaccinate your fucking kids.

Vaccinate you and yours and you won't have to worry about people who don't vaccinate theirs. Pretty simple.

There are some people who cannot be vaccinated, or are too young to be vaccinated.

Herd immunity. Ever heard of it?

Then let your herd immunity protect those who do not want to be vaccinated too. Let enough people die off from something and vaccinations will be very popular again. No big deal. There are too many people on this planet already. We can afford for that herd to be thinned by natural selection.

You've never been vaccinated?

If not, then Agreed, No big Deal.

 

[sameech]

You've never been vaccinated?

If not, then Agreed, No big Deal.

I have been vaccinated out the ying yang against stuff I probably wouldn't ever come into contact with in 3 lives, but that is not the point. It makes no difference to me whether a Christian Scientist gets vaccinated or not because I have been. Let them do them and I will do me. They can live or die with the consequences of their decisions. Not my place to tell them what they should or should not be doing. Choose for you and yours and don't worry about the rest.

 

[Darlene]

Worth adding, if you join the military you'll get vaccinated again and there's no opting out of it. So this whole issue can be summed up thus: if you support your own nation's military you must support mandatory vaccinations.

I wouldn't ever join the military and I only support it up to a point, so military is irrelevant to this thread. Remember, we're in Clean Debate Zone so don't call people stupid.

 

[Darlene]

When my first son was born (he will be one on the 24th of this month), I waited until a few hours before discharge before getting his HepB vaccine. Kai was fine up until then. After the vaccine, he started having retractions (not normal in any baby), rapid breathing and was gasping every now and then. Coincidence? I don't think so. I have every right and good reason to be leery of vaccines. I've seen firsthand what they can do. Doctors say moderate to severe reactions are rare, one in so many. But why would I, after seeing my newborn suffer, want to risk even that small chance? Wanna know what makes it even worse? The pediatrician threatened to sue me if I reported it. I don't have the money to go against the medical system. I felt trapped and didn't know what to do and also didn't have the time to look into it any further, just giving birth and breastfeeding (via electric pump).

 

[Darlene]

The public safety issue trumps parental rights.

Remove children from the home to never return if the parents refuse even once.

would that apply to all of the unvaccinated illegals in our school systems today too?

Sure., unvaccinated kids legals or illegals are public safety hazards.

Do not even fucking mention taking kids for parents for something like this. That's a personal attack, completely unacceptable here in CDZ.

 

[FA_Q2]

You've never been vaccinated?

If not, then Agreed, No big Deal.

I have been vaccinated out the ying yang against stuff I probably wouldn't ever come into contact with in 3 lives, but that is not the point. It makes no difference to me whether a Christian Scientist gets vaccinated or not because I have been. Let them do them and I will do me. They can live or die with the consequences of their decisions. Not my place to tell them what they should or should not be doing. Choose for you and yours and don't worry about the rest.

And this discussion has nothing to do with that stance. It is not really a discussion on weather or not it should be forced (unless you are going with totalitarian position that Jake is taking - what a surprise) but rather SHOULD you get your children vaccinated.

In this thread it darn well IS our place to be telling others what our opinion is on getting vaccinated - if not then what is the point of the discussion?

 

[FA_Q2]

The public safety issue trumps parental rights.

Remove children from the home to never return if the parents refuse even once.

would that apply to all of the unvaccinated illegals in our school systems today too?

Sure., unvaccinated kids legals or illegals are public safety hazards.

Do not even fucking mention taking kids for parents for something like this. That's a personal attack, completely unacceptable here in CDZ.

Nowhere was that a personal attack. You apparently do not understand what personal means - it was a statement of opinion and perfectly legal in the CDZ. If you can t take being offended by others opinion then you probably should be here debating opinions in the first place...