To Remove Lead Water Pipes, First You Must Find Them

[progressive hunter]

Yes Americans, lead has been used for pressure water piping.
And yes, it can withstand pressure required in a water supply system.

Pb. as in plumbing!

This is another one that can stand alongside the American bullshit of the Covid vaccines killing people.

America can't possibly compete with China if this sort of demonstration of ignorance is not stopped!

you didnt give an accurate rant,,

they are iron and lead combos,,, not just lead,,

No, the cast iron pipe with lead just in the joints are only used for waste water.
Cast iron is neve used for supply lines.
But pure lead was the main choice for cold water supply lines before 1920 or so,

How many homes, built before 1920, are still in use daily as residential property?

Probably about a third of all housing is still using these old lead pipes, and it not only is too expensive to replace them, but there is no reason to, since old lead pipes do not normally add lead to the water. It is only hot water in the home or exceptionally acidic water that causes there to be any elevated lead.

as a person thats worked on houses for 50 yrs and been in thousands of them mostly older ones I have never once seen a lead water pipe in a house,,,

Any why would you?
The easily accessible plumbing was likely switched out over 50 years ago.
Remember that lead pipe became very valuable and easily salvaged for a profit.
But the plumbing that is inaccessible is still there, is still lead, and you just can't see it.
You would have to dig a trench between the street and house to find it.

you can see it if you tear out the walls,, and I have torn out the walls for the first time on dozens of houses built before 1920 including the one I grew up in and the one I currently live in but it didnt have inside plumbing until 1973,,

Lead plumbing is big, heavy, hard to use, and very expensive.
It was all removed when ever accessible.
But you can't see what is under the house, and if before 1920, then under the house is lead most likely.

under the house???

I thought we were talking about whats in the house,, I've never seen plumbing under one,, it comes into the side and goes up,
but as I said, I have done dozens of first time remodels on houses pre 1920 and a few pre 1900 and never seen lead pipes,,

Wrong.
No plumbing comes in to the side of the house, but comes from underneath.
It comes up through the basement floor.
To avoid shifts, freezes, foundation trenches, etc., it is usually over 10' deep.
You want to go under the foundation footing, not through the foundation or basement wall.
But in warmer climates, it could be shallower if slab construction is commonly used instead of basements.

There used to be some lead pipe inside the houses, but the price of lead went through the roof during WWII, so it all got ripped out where ever it was accessible.

thats funny when I look in my basement the pipes come out of the wall not the floor and only about 3-4 ft deep,, not sure what your frost line is,,

and its that same way in most if not all of the houses I've been in,,,

 

[Rigby5]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Socialism can have multiple variations. Then the removing of money through taxes from a person's wages and other ways is called government theft. For it is not small amount.

Depends on what you get back from those taxes paid.
In the US we get almost nothing back because almost all our taxes go to the military.
But in places like China, there are low cost or free public places to eat all over the place.

{... Besides abolishing private property and dividing work among households, these communes centered around communal canteens (Gonggong Shitang), a free dining system designed to feed commune members. Communal dining didn’t last all that long, and was eliminated in 1962. ...}

Whether or not socialism is liberating or oppressive has to do with whether or not it is a democracy, not what economic system they use.

 

[bripat9643]

What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

I'm not a Constitutional expert so I probably missed it but where in our Constitution all the things you enumerate prohibited?

They aren't allowed by the Constitution, which means they are prohibited.

 

[progressive hunter]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Socialism can have multiple variations. Then the removing of money through taxes from a person's wages and other ways is called government theft. For it is not small amount.

Depends on what you get back from those taxes paid.
In the US we get almost nothing back because almost all our taxes go to the military.
But in places like China, there are low cost or free public places to eat all over the place.

{... Besides abolishing private property and dividing work among households, these communes centered around communal canteens (Gonggong Shitang), a free dining system designed to feed commune members. Communal dining didn’t last all that long, and was eliminated in 1962. ...}

Whether or not socialism is liberating or oppressive has to do with whether or not it is a democracy, not what economic system they use.

 

[bripat9643]

Yes Americans, lead has been used for pressure water piping.
And yes, it can withstand pressure required in a water supply system.

Pb. as in plumbing!

This is another one that can stand alongside the American bullshit of the Covid vaccines killing people.

America can't possibly compete with China if this sort of demonstration of ignorance is not stopped!

you didnt give an accurate rant,,

they are iron and lead combos,,, not just lead,,

No, the cast iron pipe with lead just in the joints are only used for waste water.
Cast iron is neve used for supply lines.
But pure lead was the main choice for cold water supply lines before 1920 or so,

How many homes, built before 1920, are still in use daily as residential property?

Probably about a third of all housing is still using these old lead pipes, and it not only is too expensive to replace them, but there is no reason to, since old lead pipes do not normally add lead to the water. It is only hot water in the home or exceptionally acidic water that causes there to be any elevated lead.

as a person thats worked on houses for 50 yrs and been in thousands of them mostly older ones I have never once seen a lead water pipe in a house,,,

Any why would you?
The easily accessible plumbing was likely switched out over 50 years ago.
Remember that lead pipe became very valuable and easily salvaged for a profit.
But the plumbing that is inaccessible is still there, is still lead, and you just can't see it.
You would have to dig a trench between the street and house to find it.

you can see it if you tear out the walls,, and I have torn out the walls for the first time on dozens of houses built before 1920 including the one I grew up in and the one I currently live in but it didnt have inside plumbing until 1973,,

Lead plumbing is big, heavy, hard to use, and very expensive.
It was all removed when ever accessible.
But you can't see what is under the house, and if before 1920, then under the house is lead most likely.

under the house???

I thought we were talking about whats in the house,, I've never seen plumbing under one,, it comes into the side and goes up,
but as I said, I have done dozens of first time remodels on houses pre 1920 and a few pre 1900 and never seen lead pipes,,

Wrong.
No plumbing comes in to the side of the house, but comes from underneath.
It comes up through the basement floor.
To avoid shifts, freezes, foundation trenches, etc., it is usually over 10' deep.
You want to go under the foundation footing, not through the foundation or basement wall.
But in warmer climates, it could be shallower if slab construction is commonly used instead of basements.

There used to be some lead pipe inside the houses, but the price of lead went through the roof during WWII, so it all got ripped out where ever it was accessible.

thats funny when I look in my basement the pipes come out of the wall not the floor and only about 3-4 ft deep,, not sure what your frost line is,,

and its that same way in most if not all of the houses I've been in,,,

Where the frostline is depends on how far North you are.

 

[progressive hunter]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Socialism can have multiple variations. Then the removing of money through taxes from a person's wages and other ways is called government theft. For it is not small amount.

Depends on what you get back from those taxes paid.
In the US we get almost nothing back because almost all our taxes go to the military.
But in places like China, there are low cost or free public places to eat all over the place.

{... Besides abolishing private property and dividing work among households, these communes centered around communal canteens (Gonggong Shitang), a free dining system designed to feed commune members. Communal dining didn’t last all that long, and was eliminated in 1962. ...}

Whether or not socialism is liberating or oppressive has to do with whether or not it is a democracy, not what economic system they use.

it depends on whether its voluntary or forced ,,,
and china is a forced system,,

 

[bripat9643]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Socialism can have multiple variations. Then the removing of money through taxes from a person's wages and other ways is called government theft. For it is not small amount.

Depends on what you get back from those taxes paid.
In the US we get almost nothing back because almost all our taxes go to the military.
But in places like China, there are low cost or free public places to eat all over the place.

{... Besides abolishing private property and dividing work among households, these communes centered around communal canteens (Gonggong Shitang), a free dining system designed to feed commune members. Communal dining didn’t last all that long, and was eliminated in 1962. ...}

Whether or not socialism is liberating or oppressive has to do with whether or not it is a democracy, not what economic system they use.

We get nothing back from our taxes becuase government pisses it all down the welfare sewer.

If you want to eat shitty disgusting food, then get the free kind.

 

[bripat9643]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Someone has to do it because they always lie about it.

I notice the image of Hitler.
And do you realize Hitler was an anti-socialist?
Under Hitler, the capitalist corporations made the most profits ever.
Hitler was appointed by Hindenberg, the representative of the oligarchs, the aristocracy, military, and corporations.
Hitler had all the socialists murdered.
The Night of the Long Knives.

Socialism does not imply centralization.
It is capitalist corporations that are the greatest danger, because they are even more centralized than federal. They are multi national.

so an anti socialist was running the national socialist party???

I think you have your definitions wrong,,

Hitler wasn't anti-socialist, you fucking dumbass.

 

[progressive hunter]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Socialism can have multiple variations. Then the removing of money through taxes from a person's wages and other ways is called government theft. For it is not small amount.

Depends on what you get back from those taxes paid.
In the US we get almost nothing back because almost all our taxes go to the military.
But in places like China, there are low cost or free public places to eat all over the place.

{... Besides abolishing private property and dividing work among households, these communes centered around communal canteens (Gonggong Shitang), a free dining system designed to feed commune members. Communal dining didn’t last all that long, and was eliminated in 1962. ...}

Whether or not socialism is liberating or oppressive has to do with whether or not it is a democracy, not what economic system they use.

We get nothing back from our taxes becuase government pisses it all down the welfare sewer.

If you want to eat shitty disgusting food, then get the free kind.

if I refused to work and not pay taxs I would get a lot back from the government,,

 

[bripat9643]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

I'm not a conservative and have done much research on progressives and their origins that go back to the fabian socialist,,,
and I know their ideology was so rejected they had to change their name to liberals,,,

could you explain how individual rights work in a collective society???

I always thought things should be decided for the collective and rejection of the individual,,

Easy.
If lots of people need something collective, they pool resources and do it together.
A common example would be a bond issue for the financing of public schools, library, police, fire department, etc.
In a rural setting, you would expect collective grain elevators, farmer's markets, etc.
It only starts to get more tricky when it is something that could generate more of a profit.
For example, if people need solar power, and no one can afford the over head alone, then why not collectively pool some revenue in order to finance the factory to build the solar panels, inverters, etc.?
The problem with that is a capitalist society considers that illegal.
A public company does not have to make a profit, so private companies consider it cheating.
But it does allow for better service, savings, and more user input.
For example, in Milwaukee, WI, the city buses, school buses, garbage trucks, and snow plows are all collective.
Which means they can shift drivers around as needed.
When it snows, they put plows on the garbage trucks, and it is quickly dealt with.
They already have plenty of drivers and don't have to have any extra overhead.
With a private company, people claim you can choose another brand instead, but the reality is that often is not possible.
Things like insurance, cars, gasoline, health care, etc., pretty much price fix, so you are really facing more of a monopoly.
You get no input at all.
While if you have public companies, then you can go to public meeting and complain, vote, or organize opposition.
You have much more influence.
With private, you have nothing.
The only people who like private over public, are the ones who want to make abusive profits.

thats not a collective,, thats a society working together for a specific goal,,,


theres no such thing as a public company they are owned by individuals and the public has no business telling them how to run their company,, thats authoritarian and against individual rights you say you are for,,

my guess is you lied when you said you were for individual rights cause everything youve said since goes against that,,,

Wrong.
Society working together for a specific goal IS collective.
That is exactly what the word means.

{...
collective
[kəˈlektiv]

ADJECTIVE

1. done by people acting as a group.
   "a collective protest"

NOUN

1. a cooperative enterprise.
   synonyms:
   cooperative · co-op · community · communal settlement · kibbutz · fellowship

...}

Authoritarian is when you have a private person or company dictate to you.
There are lots of public companies, for example most utilities are public.
Anytime you don't want a private dictator creating a high priced monopoly that your community has no influence over price or quality, you create a public company.
We should have far more public companies, but the reason we don't is that the private capitalists who want that profit, consider public companies that could make a profit, illegal.

Government grants utility monopolies, moron.

 

[progressive hunter]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

I'm not a conservative and have done much research on progressives and their origins that go back to the fabian socialist,,,
and I know their ideology was so rejected they had to change their name to liberals,,,

could you explain how individual rights work in a collective society???

I always thought things should be decided for the collective and rejection of the individual,,

Easy.
If lots of people need something collective, they pool resources and do it together.
A common example would be a bond issue for the financing of public schools, library, police, fire department, etc.
In a rural setting, you would expect collective grain elevators, farmer's markets, etc.
It only starts to get more tricky when it is something that could generate more of a profit.
For example, if people need solar power, and no one can afford the over head alone, then why not collectively pool some revenue in order to finance the factory to build the solar panels, inverters, etc.?
The problem with that is a capitalist society considers that illegal.
A public company does not have to make a profit, so private companies consider it cheating.
But it does allow for better service, savings, and more user input.
For example, in Milwaukee, WI, the city buses, school buses, garbage trucks, and snow plows are all collective.
Which means they can shift drivers around as needed.
When it snows, they put plows on the garbage trucks, and it is quickly dealt with.
They already have plenty of drivers and don't have to have any extra overhead.
With a private company, people claim you can choose another brand instead, but the reality is that often is not possible.
Things like insurance, cars, gasoline, health care, etc., pretty much price fix, so you are really facing more of a monopoly.
You get no input at all.
While if you have public companies, then you can go to public meeting and complain, vote, or organize opposition.
You have much more influence.
With private, you have nothing.
The only people who like private over public, are the ones who want to make abusive profits.

thats not a collective,, thats a society working together for a specific goal,,,


theres no such thing as a public company they are owned by individuals and the public has no business telling them how to run their company,, thats authoritarian and against individual rights you say you are for,,

my guess is you lied when you said you were for individual rights cause everything youve said since goes against that,,,

Wrong.
Society working together for a specific goal IS collective.
That is exactly what the word means.

{...
collective
[kəˈlektiv]

ADJECTIVE

1. done by people acting as a group.
   "a collective protest"

NOUN

1. a cooperative enterprise.
   synonyms:
   cooperative · co-op · community · communal settlement · kibbutz · fellowship

...}

Authoritarian is when you have a private person or company dictate to you.
There are lots of public companies, for example most utilities are public.
Anytime you don't want a private dictator creating a high priced monopoly that your community has no influence over price or quality, you create a public company.
We should have far more public companies, but the reason we don't is that the private capitalists who want that profit, consider public companies that could make a profit, illegal.

Government grants utility monopolies, moron.

all monopolies are created by government

 

[Rigby5]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Someone has to do it because they always lie about it.

I notice the image of Hitler.
And do you realize Hitler was an anti-socialist?
Under Hitler, the capitalist corporations made the most profits ever.
Hitler was appointed by Hindenberg, the representative of the oligarchs, the aristocracy, military, and corporations.
Hitler had all the socialists murdered.
The Night of the Long Knives.

Socialism does not imply centralization.
It is capitalist corporations that are the greatest danger, because they are even more centralized than federal. They are multi national.

so an anti socialist was running the national socialist party???

I think you have your definitions wrong,,

Think of it as the "anti-socialist" party and you will have it right.
Hitler turned totally and completely anti-socialist.
Why else would have have killed all the socialists in the Night of the Long Knives, 1934?
Hitler never socialized any company, and although Junkers company had its founder removed, it was not made into a public company. It retained its private ownership.

 

[bripat9643]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Someone has to do it because they always lie about it.

I notice the image of Hitler.
And do you realize Hitler was an anti-socialist?
Under Hitler, the capitalist corporations made the most profits ever.
Hitler was appointed by Hindenberg, the representative of the oligarchs, the aristocracy, military, and corporations.
Hitler had all the socialists murdered.
The Night of the Long Knives.

Socialism does not imply centralization.
It is capitalist corporations that are the greatest danger, because they are even more centralized than federal. They are multi national.

No, Hitler was not a socialist. He said many times that he was a socialist.

 

[progressive hunter]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Someone has to do it because they always lie about it.

I notice the image of Hitler.
And do you realize Hitler was an anti-socialist?
Under Hitler, the capitalist corporations made the most profits ever.
Hitler was appointed by Hindenberg, the representative of the oligarchs, the aristocracy, military, and corporations.
Hitler had all the socialists murdered.
The Night of the Long Knives.

Socialism does not imply centralization.
It is capitalist corporations that are the greatest danger, because they are even more centralized than federal. They are multi national.

so an anti socialist was running the national socialist party???

I think you have your definitions wrong,,

Think of it as the "anti-socialist" party and you will have it right.
Hitler turned totally and completely anti-socialist.
Why else would have have killed all the socialists in the Night of the Long Knives, 1934?
Hitler never socialized any company, and although Junkers company had its founder removed, it was not made into a public company. It retained its private ownership.

got a link to back that up???

I didnt think so,,

 

[bripat9643]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Someone has to do it because they always lie about it.

I notice the image of Hitler.
And do you realize Hitler was an anti-socialist?
Under Hitler, the capitalist corporations made the most profits ever.
Hitler was appointed by Hindenberg, the representative of the oligarchs, the aristocracy, military, and corporations.
Hitler had all the socialists murdered.
The Night of the Long Knives.

Socialism does not imply centralization.
It is capitalist corporations that are the greatest danger, because they are even more centralized than federal. They are multi national.

so an anti socialist was running the national socialist party???

I think you have your definitions wrong,,

Think of it as the "anti-socialist" party and you will have it right.
Hitler turned totally and completely anti-socialist.
Why else would have have killed all the socialists in the Night of the Long Knives, 1934?
Hitler never socialized any company, and although Junkers company had its founder removed, it was not made into a public company. It retained its private ownership.

He didn't kill all the socialists. He killed the SA leadership who were a threat to his power. Stalin executed all the Mensheviks or sent them to the Gulag. Was he an anti-socialist?

 

[BluesLegend]

In really old houses water mains are cast iron with lead solder.

In really new houses water pipes are copper with lead solder. I think lead in water is mostly an excuse for Dem PORK. If Dems want to accomplish something for the environment they should fix their broke ass sewage systems in their cities and stop spilling hundreds of millions of gallons of raw untreated sewage into public rivers and oceans.

WRONG!!!

new houses get mostly pex and very few get copper and those that do are required to use leadfree solder,,,

Houses built up to 1998 still contained lead in the copper pipe solder.

Really? Who knew?

Why are you always so eager to prove your ignorance on virtually any topic?

The 1950s
Use of lead pipes mostly stopped in the 1950s. Most cities replace lead pipes they find when they are replacing water mains. Homeowners are typically responsible for replacing lead pipes from the shut-off to their home.


1986
How Old Is the Plumbing in Your Home? Solder connects pipes in household plumbing. In 1986, the U.S. mandated a lead-free solder for plumbing, so the age of your house and knowledge of when the plumbing was installed can help you. If your house was built before 1986, your plumbing may have lead solder.

You are sadly ignorant, it wasn't mandated in the clean water act until 1998 and your reading comprehension is 1st grade level.

To bad that the FACTS back me up and I'M the one who is ignorant. Got it!

 

[Rigby5]

Yes Americans, lead has been used for pressure water piping.
And yes, it can withstand pressure required in a water supply system.

Pb. as in plumbing!

This is another one that can stand alongside the American bullshit of the Covid vaccines killing people.

America can't possibly compete with China if this sort of demonstration of ignorance is not stopped!

you didnt give an accurate rant,,

they are iron and lead combos,,, not just lead,,

No, the cast iron pipe with lead just in the joints are only used for waste water.
Cast iron is neve used for supply lines.
But pure lead was the main choice for cold water supply lines before 1920 or so,

How many homes, built before 1920, are still in use daily as residential property?

Probably about a third of all housing is still using these old lead pipes, and it not only is too expensive to replace them, but there is no reason to, since old lead pipes do not normally add lead to the water. It is only hot water in the home or exceptionally acidic water that causes there to be any elevated lead.

as a person thats worked on houses for 50 yrs and been in thousands of them mostly older ones I have never once seen a lead water pipe in a house,,,

Any why would you?
The easily accessible plumbing was likely switched out over 50 years ago.
Remember that lead pipe became very valuable and easily salvaged for a profit.
But the plumbing that is inaccessible is still there, is still lead, and you just can't see it.
You would have to dig a trench between the street and house to find it.

you can see it if you tear out the walls,, and I have torn out the walls for the first time on dozens of houses built before 1920 including the one I grew up in and the one I currently live in but it didnt have inside plumbing until 1973,,

Lead plumbing is big, heavy, hard to use, and very expensive.
It was all removed when ever accessible.
But you can't see what is under the house, and if before 1920, then under the house is lead most likely.

under the house???

I thought we were talking about whats in the house,, I've never seen plumbing under one,, it comes into the side and goes up,
but as I said, I have done dozens of first time remodels on houses pre 1920 and a few pre 1900 and never seen lead pipes,,

Wrong.
No plumbing comes in to the side of the house, but comes from underneath.
It comes up through the basement floor.
To avoid shifts, freezes, foundation trenches, etc., it is usually over 10' deep.
You want to go under the foundation footing, not through the foundation or basement wall.
But in warmer climates, it could be shallower if slab construction is commonly used instead of basements.

There used to be some lead pipe inside the houses, but the price of lead went through the roof during WWII, so it all got ripped out where ever it was accessible.

thats funny when I look in my basement the pipes come out of the wall not the floor and only about 3-4 ft deep,, not sure what your frost line is,,

and its that same way in most if not all of the houses I've been in,,,

Most houses in cold climates have basements due to building codes.
Many of those basements have toilets out in the open.
That was because they were never intended to be used by a person, but were intended as relief point if the sewer line got clogged and backed up, since it would be easier to clean up in basement than in a 1st floor bathroom.
And since sewer is gravity instead of pressure, that means the sewer line has to be much lower than the basement floor.
And while they are digging down that far for the sewer line, it is not at all difficult to put a water line at the same time.

 

[progressive hunter]

Yes Americans, lead has been used for pressure water piping.
And yes, it can withstand pressure required in a water supply system.

Pb. as in plumbing!

This is another one that can stand alongside the American bullshit of the Covid vaccines killing people.

America can't possibly compete with China if this sort of demonstration of ignorance is not stopped!

you didnt give an accurate rant,,

they are iron and lead combos,,, not just lead,,

No, the cast iron pipe with lead just in the joints are only used for waste water.
Cast iron is neve used for supply lines.
But pure lead was the main choice for cold water supply lines before 1920 or so,

How many homes, built before 1920, are still in use daily as residential property?

Probably about a third of all housing is still using these old lead pipes, and it not only is too expensive to replace them, but there is no reason to, since old lead pipes do not normally add lead to the water. It is only hot water in the home or exceptionally acidic water that causes there to be any elevated lead.

as a person thats worked on houses for 50 yrs and been in thousands of them mostly older ones I have never once seen a lead water pipe in a house,,,

Any why would you?
The easily accessible plumbing was likely switched out over 50 years ago.
Remember that lead pipe became very valuable and easily salvaged for a profit.
But the plumbing that is inaccessible is still there, is still lead, and you just can't see it.
You would have to dig a trench between the street and house to find it.

you can see it if you tear out the walls,, and I have torn out the walls for the first time on dozens of houses built before 1920 including the one I grew up in and the one I currently live in but it didnt have inside plumbing until 1973,,

Lead plumbing is big, heavy, hard to use, and very expensive.
It was all removed when ever accessible.
But you can't see what is under the house, and if before 1920, then under the house is lead most likely.

under the house???

I thought we were talking about whats in the house,, I've never seen plumbing under one,, it comes into the side and goes up,
but as I said, I have done dozens of first time remodels on houses pre 1920 and a few pre 1900 and never seen lead pipes,,

Wrong.
No plumbing comes in to the side of the house, but comes from underneath.
It comes up through the basement floor.
To avoid shifts, freezes, foundation trenches, etc., it is usually over 10' deep.
You want to go under the foundation footing, not through the foundation or basement wall.
But in warmer climates, it could be shallower if slab construction is commonly used instead of basements.

There used to be some lead pipe inside the houses, but the price of lead went through the roof during WWII, so it all got ripped out where ever it was accessible.

thats funny when I look in my basement the pipes come out of the wall not the floor and only about 3-4 ft deep,, not sure what your frost line is,,

and its that same way in most if not all of the houses I've been in,,,

Most houses in cold climates have basements due to building codes.
Many of those basements have toilets out in the open.
That was because they were never intended to be used by a person, but were intended as relief point if the sewer line got clogged and backed up, since it would be easier to clean up in basement than in a 1st floor bathroom.
And since sewer is gravity instead of pressure, that means the sewer line has to be much lower than the basement floor.
And while they are digging down that far for the sewer line, it is not at all difficult to put a water line at the same time.

could be,, but most of the houses around here the water line comes in from the side and some of the drains do to and require a pump if you have utilities in the basement like laundry or toilet my sons house is one example,,

 

[Rigby5]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Socialism can have multiple variations. Then the removing of money through taxes from a person's wages and other ways is called government theft. For it is not small amount.

Depends on what you get back from those taxes paid.
In the US we get almost nothing back because almost all our taxes go to the military.
But in places like China, there are low cost or free public places to eat all over the place.

{... Besides abolishing private property and dividing work among households, these communes centered around communal canteens (Gonggong Shitang), a free dining system designed to feed commune members. Communal dining didn’t last all that long, and was eliminated in 1962. ...}

Whether or not socialism is liberating or oppressive has to do with whether or not it is a democracy, not what economic system they use.

it depends on whether its voluntary or forced ,,,
and china is a forced system,,

Agree.
Since China is centralized, forced, and not a democracy, then I see no way to call it collective.
Instead it is run by a wealthy elite, for their own profit, so is what is known as "state capitalism".
{...

state capitalism
[stāt ˈkapədlˌizəm]

NOUN

1. a political system in which the state has control of production and the use of capital.

...}

 

[bripat9643]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Socialism can have multiple variations. Then the removing of money through taxes from a person's wages and other ways is called government theft. For it is not small amount.

Depends on what you get back from those taxes paid.
In the US we get almost nothing back because almost all our taxes go to the military.
But in places like China, there are low cost or free public places to eat all over the place.

{... Besides abolishing private property and dividing work among households, these communes centered around communal canteens (Gonggong Shitang), a free dining system designed to feed commune members. Communal dining didn’t last all that long, and was eliminated in 1962. ...}

Whether or not socialism is liberating or oppressive has to do with whether or not it is a democracy, not what economic system they use.

it depends on whether its voluntary or forced ,,,
and china is a forced system,,

Agree.
Since China is centralized, forced, and not a democracy, then I see no way to call it collective.
Instead it is run by a wealthy elite, for their own profit, so is what is known as "state capitalism".
{...

state capitalism
[stāt ˈkapədlˌizəm]

NOUN

1. a political system in which the state has control of production and the use of capital.

...}

Every socialist in the world claim the USSR was socialist, and it wasn't a democracy.