To Remove Lead Water Pipes, First You Must Find Them

[Markle]

Yes Americans, lead has been used for pressure water piping.
And yes, it can withstand pressure required in a water supply system.

Pb. as in plumbing!

This is another one that can stand alongside the American bullshit of the Covid vaccines killing people.

America can't possibly compete with China if this sort of demonstration of ignorance is not stopped!

you didnt give an accurate rant,,

they are iron and lead combos,,, not just lead,,

No, the cast iron pipe with lead just in the joints are only used for waste water.
Cast iron is neve used for supply lines.
But pure lead was the main choice for cold water supply lines before 1920 or so,

How many homes, built before 1920, are still in use daily as residential property?

I live in a 1912 and the house I grew up in is a 1904 and both are fully occupied,,

Soooo. that's two? Do they have the same electrical system as was installed in 1902?

 

[Markle]

Safe drinking water for everyone in America is an important goal, and Joe Biden’s American Jobs Plan makes a $111 billion investment toward that. While the majority of the funding goes to modernizing water treatment and delivery systems and remediating potentially harmful chemicals like PFAS, what’s gotten the most attention is a $45 billion initiative to “replace 100 percent of the nation’s lead pipes and service lines.”

If we could manage to do this, it would make a huge difference. Lead exposure has been credibly linked to stunted child development, kidney disease, auditory problems, brain damage, behavioral challenges, and more provocatively, crime. We eliminated leaded gasoline and paint in the 1970s and yet it still lingers as a persistent problem. And part of that comes through water tainted as it flows through lead pipes.

But if you want to replace all the lead water pipes in America, the first thing you have to do is find all the lead water pipes in America.

First 100: To Remove Lead Water Pipes, First You Must Find Them

And then you have to remove the whole pipe, including the part on private property.

prospect.org

This sounds like it has the makings of a chaotic nightmare. I don't have a problem with it as long as homeowners are not having to come up with money to replace them.

in all my 45 yrs of working on old houses I have never seen a single lead water pipe,, they are used fro drain pipes but not water pipes because they cant handle the pressure,,

The entire issue in Flint Michigan with their water pipes was due to lead in the water system, so it's a fallacy to say this isn't a problem in the USA.

True that Flint has lead water supply pipes, but the only reason why humans suddenly got high lead amounts is that old stagnant pipes were suddenly used, without properly flushing them out.
Normal lead from lead pipes supplying cold and neutral ph water, is essentially zero.
{...
For 50 years, Flint had purchased its water from Detroit, its neighbor 70 miles to south. However, in 2014, the cash-strapped city decided to end its agreement with Detroit and start pulling water from the Flint River until a new aqueduct was built.
...}
So it was old piping that has been unused for 50 years that caused the problem, and it was only temporary.
Once flushed out, it likely went away.

You are obviously ignorant about the situation in Flint. You confirm that with your ending comment, "Once flushed out, it likely went away".

Let me help bring you up to date.

The Flint water crisis was a public health crisis that started in 2014 and lasted until 2019,[2] after the drinking water for the city of Flint, Michigan was contaminated with lead and possibly Legionella bacteria.[1] In April 2014, during a budget crisis, Flint changed its water source from treated Detroit Water and Sewerage Department water (sourced from Lake Huron and the Detroit River) to the Flint River. Residents complained about the taste, smell, and appearance of the water. Officials failed to apply corrosion inhibitors to the water, which resulted in lead from aging pipes leaching into the water supply, exposing around 100,000 residents to elevated lead levels.[7] A pair of scientific studies confirmed that lead contamination was present in the water supply.[8][9] The city switched back to the Detroit water system on October 16, 2015.[10] It later signed a 30-year contract with the new Great Lakes Water Authority (GLWA) on November 22, 2017.[11]

Wrong.
That is reaffirming EXACTLY what I said.
Flint used to get its water from the Flint river and had no problem with lead.
Flint switched to Detroit water 50 years ago for some reason.
When Flint switched back to the old Flint river water after 50 years laying dormant and unused, the lead content was very high.
Almost immediately Flint switched back to Detroit water, so never gave the old system a chance to flush out.
They should have flushed it out for 6 months before sending it to homes.
If they had, then there would have been no lead problem.
The lead problem is NOT from the old lead pipes.
Those old lead pipes were never a problem in the decades before they switched to Detroit water 50 years ago.

What science concludes is that you can't let plumbing sit for 50 years without expecting some toxic chemical buildup.

Wow, there was no problem with lead 50 years ago! Who knew?

Fifty years ago, we had lead paint in houses and on cars, everyone used gasoline with lead. It wasn't considered a serious problem 50 years ago.

Gee, I wonder why no one thought of flushing out the lines? Flint River only changed the source of their water, not the supply lines. All that needed flushing would have been the lines from the Flint River to their water plant. That would take six months? Flint was receiving the same water as 50 years ago (if what you say is true) but lead wasn't considered a problem.

The management of Flint River simply did not do their due diligence prior to making the switch. That's the bottom line.

The Flint water crisis was a public health crisis that started in 2014 and lasted until 2019,[2] after the drinking water for the city of Flint, Michigan was contaminated with lead and possibly Legionella bacteria.[1] In April 2014, during a budget crisis, Flint changed its water source from treated Detroit Water and Sewerage Department water (sourced from Lake Huron and the Detroit River) to the Flint River. Residents complained about the taste, smell, and appearance of the water. Officials failed to apply corrosion inhibitors to the water, which resulted in lead from aging pipes leaching into the water supply, exposing around 100,000 residents to elevated lead levels.[7] A pair of scientific studies confirmed that lead contamination was present in the water supply.[8][9] The city switched back to the Detroit water system on October 16, 2015.[10] It later signed a 30-year contract with the new Great Lakes Water Authority (GLWA) on November 22, 2017.[11]

On January 5, 2016, Michigan Governor Rick Snyder declared a state of emergency in Genesee County, of which Flint is the major population center. Shortly thereafter, President Barack Obama declared a federal state of emergency, authorizing additional help from the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the Department of Homeland Security.[12]

 

[Markle]

What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

I'm not a Constitutional expert so I probably missed it but where in our Constitution all the things you enumerate prohibited?

 

[Likkmee]

C'mon man. Lead helps in fighting pole shift !
It's a natural mineral ! Yaint got a edukashin ?

 

[progressive hunter]

Yes Americans, lead has been used for pressure water piping.
And yes, it can withstand pressure required in a water supply system.

Pb. as in plumbing!

This is another one that can stand alongside the American bullshit of the Covid vaccines killing people.

America can't possibly compete with China if this sort of demonstration of ignorance is not stopped!

you didnt give an accurate rant,,

they are iron and lead combos,,, not just lead,,

No, the cast iron pipe with lead just in the joints are only used for waste water.
Cast iron is neve used for supply lines.
But pure lead was the main choice for cold water supply lines before 1920 or so,

How many homes, built before 1920, are still in use daily as residential property?

I live in a 1912 and the house I grew up in is a 1904 and both are fully occupied,,

Soooo. that's two? Do they have the same electrical system as was installed in 1902?

1904,,
and yes up until I changed the knob and tube system in 2002 when I bought it from my mom and did a major overhaul,, in fact some of it is still there and working because I didnt want to tear out a few ceiling to get to it,,
same goes for the 1912 house I currently live in but plan to tear out all the ceiling this yr or next and replace it,,

 

[progressive hunter]

What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

I'm not a Constitutional expert so I probably missed it but where in our Constitution all the things you enumerate prohibited?

as per the 10th amendment it requires where they are allowed not prohibited,,

 

[Markle]

Yes Americans, lead has been used for pressure water piping.
And yes, it can withstand pressure required in a water supply system.

Pb. as in plumbing!

This is another one that can stand alongside the American bullshit of the Covid vaccines killing people.

America can't possibly compete with China if this sort of demonstration of ignorance is not stopped!

you didnt give an accurate rant,,

they are iron and lead combos,,, not just lead,,

No, the cast iron pipe with lead just in the joints are only used for waste water.
Cast iron is neve used for supply lines.
But pure lead was the main choice for cold water supply lines before 1920 or so,

How many homes, built before 1920, are still in use daily as residential property?

Probably about a third of all housing is still using these old lead pipes, and it not only is too expensive to replace them, but there is no reason to, since old lead pipes do not normally add lead to the water. It is only hot water in the home or exceptionally acidic water that causes there to be any elevated lead.

 

[Markle]

1904,,
and yes up until I changed the knob and tube system in 2002 when I bought it from my mom and did a major overhaul,, in fact some of it is still there and working because I didnt want to tear out a few ceiling to get to it,,
same goes for the 1912 house I currently live in but plan to tear out all the ceiling this yr or next and replace it,,

My guess is that you could not get hazard insurance on the house without replacing the knob and tube electrical system. I know that in Florida, you cannot get a new insurance policy with that type of system. If your state is like ours, and a fire starts where the knob and tube is still being utilized, the insurance company can and will reject your claim.

 

[progressive hunter]

1904,,
and yes up until I changed the knob and tube system in 2002 when I bought it from my mom and did a major overhaul,, in fact some of it is still there and working because I didnt want to tear out a few ceiling to get to it,,
same goes for the 1912 house I currently live in but plan to tear out all the ceiling this yr or next and replace it,,

My guess is that you could not get hazard insurance on the house without replacing the knob and tube electrical system. I know that in Florida, you cannot get a new insurance policy with that type of system. If your state is like ours, and a fire starts where the knob and tube is still being utilized, the insurance company can and will reject your claim.

its never been an issue,, I recall when we moved in here we told them and didnt see it reflect on the ins. you might be surprised how many houses still have it,,

and the ins. isnt the issue in this discussion,,

 

[justinacolmena]

If we could manage to do this, it would make a huge difference. Lead exposure has been credibly linked to stunted child development, kidney disease, auditory problems, brain damage, behavioral challenges, and more provocatively, crime.

The obnoxious talk of “lead exposure” is liberal code speech for banning guns that shoot lead bullets.

We eliminated leaded gasoline and paint in the 1970s and yet it still lingers as a persistent problem. And part of that comes through water tainted as it flows through lead pipes.

By the same code speech, “we” eliminated drive-by shootings by authorizing warrantless searches and gun grabs for alleged minor traffic infractions.

It's the same thing as the liberals' agenda talk of “climate change,” which is the same as saying,

“Let's change the subject permanently and talk about the weather.”​

It's nothing but the Communist Party with the stereotypical weather man along with requisite stand-up comedian on public broadcast television.

 

[22lcidw]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Socialism can have multiple variations. Then the removing of money through taxes from a person's wages and other ways is called government theft. For it is not small amount.

 

[Rigby5]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

I'm not a conservative and have done much research on progressives and their origins that go back to the fabian socialist,,,
and I know their ideology was so rejected they had to change their name to liberals,,,

could you explain how individual rights work in a collective society???

I always thought things should be decided for the collective and rejection of the individual,,

Easy.
If lots of people need something collective, they pool resources and do it together.
A common example would be a bond issue for the financing of public schools, library, police, fire department, etc.
In a rural setting, you would expect collective grain elevators, farmer's markets, etc.
It only starts to get more tricky when it is something that could generate more of a profit.
For example, if people need solar power, and no one can afford the over head alone, then why not collectively pool some revenue in order to finance the factory to build the solar panels, inverters, etc.?
The problem with that is a capitalist society considers that illegal.
A public company does not have to make a profit, so private companies consider it cheating.
But it does allow for better service, savings, and more user input.
For example, in Milwaukee, WI, the city buses, school buses, garbage trucks, and snow plows are all collective.
Which means they can shift drivers around as needed.
When it snows, they put plows on the garbage trucks, and it is quickly dealt with.
They already have plenty of drivers and don't have to have any extra overhead.
With a private company, people claim you can choose another brand instead, but the reality is that often is not possible.
Things like insurance, cars, gasoline, health care, etc., pretty much price fix, so you are really facing more of a monopoly.
You get no input at all.
While if you have public companies, then you can go to public meeting and complain, vote, or organize opposition.
You have much more influence.
With private, you have nothing.
The only people who like private over public, are the ones who want to make abusive profits.

 

[progressive hunter]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

I'm not a conservative and have done much research on progressives and their origins that go back to the fabian socialist,,,
and I know their ideology was so rejected they had to change their name to liberals,,,

could you explain how individual rights work in a collective society???

I always thought things should be decided for the collective and rejection of the individual,,

Easy.
If lots of people need something collective, they pool resources and do it together.
A common example would be a bond issue for the financing of public schools, library, police, fire department, etc.
In a rural setting, you would expect collective grain elevators, farmer's markets, etc.
It only starts to get more tricky when it is something that could generate more of a profit.
For example, if people need solar power, and no one can afford the over head alone, then why not collectively pool some revenue in order to finance the factory to build the solar panels, inverters, etc.?
The problem with that is a capitalist society considers that illegal.
A public company does not have to make a profit, so private companies consider it cheating.
But it does allow for better service, savings, and more user input.
For example, in Milwaukee, WI, the city buses, school buses, garbage trucks, and snow plows are all collective.
Which means they can shift drivers around as needed.
When it snows, they put plows on the garbage trucks, and it is quickly dealt with.
They already have plenty of drivers and don't have to have any extra overhead.
With a private company, people claim you can choose another brand instead, but the reality is that often is not possible.
Things like insurance, cars, gasoline, health care, etc., pretty much price fix, so you are really facing more of a monopoly.
You get no input at all.
While if you have public companies, then you can go to public meeting and complain, vote, or organize opposition.
You have much more influence.
With private, you have nothing.
The only people who like private over public, are the ones who want to make abusive profits.

thats not a collective,, thats a society working together for a specific goal,,,


theres no such thing as a public company they are owned by individuals and the public has no business telling them how to run their company,, thats authoritarian and against individual rights you say you are for,,

my guess is you lied when you said you were for individual rights cause everything youve said since goes against that,,,

 

[Rigby5]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Someone has to do it because they always lie about it.

I notice the image of Hitler.
And do you realize Hitler was an anti-socialist?
Under Hitler, the capitalist corporations made the most profits ever.
Hitler was appointed by Hindenberg, the representative of the oligarchs, the aristocracy, military, and corporations.
Hitler had all the socialists murdered.
The Night of the Long Knives.

Socialism does not imply centralization.
It is capitalist corporations that are the greatest danger, because they are even more centralized than federal. They are multi national.

 

[Rigby5]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

I'm not a conservative and have done much research on progressives and their origins that go back to the fabian socialist,,,
and I know their ideology was so rejected they had to change their name to liberals,,,

could you explain how individual rights work in a collective society???

I always thought things should be decided for the collective and rejection of the individual,,

Easy.
If lots of people need something collective, they pool resources and do it together.
A common example would be a bond issue for the financing of public schools, library, police, fire department, etc.
In a rural setting, you would expect collective grain elevators, farmer's markets, etc.
It only starts to get more tricky when it is something that could generate more of a profit.
For example, if people need solar power, and no one can afford the over head alone, then why not collectively pool some revenue in order to finance the factory to build the solar panels, inverters, etc.?
The problem with that is a capitalist society considers that illegal.
A public company does not have to make a profit, so private companies consider it cheating.
But it does allow for better service, savings, and more user input.
For example, in Milwaukee, WI, the city buses, school buses, garbage trucks, and snow plows are all collective.
Which means they can shift drivers around as needed.
When it snows, they put plows on the garbage trucks, and it is quickly dealt with.
They already have plenty of drivers and don't have to have any extra overhead.
With a private company, people claim you can choose another brand instead, but the reality is that often is not possible.
Things like insurance, cars, gasoline, health care, etc., pretty much price fix, so you are really facing more of a monopoly.
You get no input at all.
While if you have public companies, then you can go to public meeting and complain, vote, or organize opposition.
You have much more influence.
With private, you have nothing.
The only people who like private over public, are the ones who want to make abusive profits.

thats not a collective,, thats a society working together for a specific goal,,,


theres no such thing as a public company they are owned by individuals and the public has no business telling them how to run their company,, thats authoritarian and against individual rights you say you are for,,

my guess is you lied when you said you were for individual rights cause everything youve said since goes against that,,,

Wrong.
Society working together for a specific goal IS collective.
That is exactly what the word means.

{...
collective
[kəˈlektiv]

ADJECTIVE

1. done by people acting as a group.
   "a collective protest"

NOUN

1. a cooperative enterprise.
   synonyms:
   cooperative · co-op · community · communal settlement · kibbutz · fellowship

...}

Authoritarian is when you have a private person or company dictate to you.
There are lots of public companies, for example most utilities are public.
Anytime you don't want a private dictator creating a high priced monopoly that your community has no influence over price or quality, you create a public company.
We should have far more public companies, but the reason we don't is that the private capitalists who want that profit, consider public companies that could make a profit, illegal.

 

[Rigby5]

Yes Americans, lead has been used for pressure water piping.
And yes, it can withstand pressure required in a water supply system.

Pb. as in plumbing!

This is another one that can stand alongside the American bullshit of the Covid vaccines killing people.

America can't possibly compete with China if this sort of demonstration of ignorance is not stopped!

you didnt give an accurate rant,,

they are iron and lead combos,,, not just lead,,

No, the cast iron pipe with lead just in the joints are only used for waste water.
Cast iron is neve used for supply lines.
But pure lead was the main choice for cold water supply lines before 1920 or so,

How many homes, built before 1920, are still in use daily as residential property?

Probably about a third of all housing is still using these old lead pipes, and it not only is too expensive to replace them, but there is no reason to, since old lead pipes do not normally add lead to the water. It is only hot water in the home or exceptionally acidic water that causes there to be any elevated lead.

as a person thats worked on houses for 50 yrs and been in thousands of them mostly older ones I have never once seen a lead water pipe in a house,,,

Any why would you?
The easily accessible plumbing was likely switched out over 50 years ago.
Remember that lead pipe became very valuable and easily salvaged for a profit.
But the plumbing that is inaccessible is still there, is still lead, and you just can't see it.
You would have to dig a trench between the street and house to find it.

you can see it if you tear out the walls,, and I have torn out the walls for the first time on dozens of houses built before 1920 including the one I grew up in and the one I currently live in but it didnt have inside plumbing until 1973,,

Lead plumbing is big, heavy, hard to use, and very expensive.
It was all removed when ever accessible.
But you can't see what is under the house, and if before 1920, then under the house is lead most likely.

under the house???

I thought we were talking about whats in the house,, I've never seen plumbing under one,, it comes into the side and goes up,
but as I said, I have done dozens of first time remodels on houses pre 1920 and a few pre 1900 and never seen lead pipes,,

Wrong.
No plumbing comes in to the side of the house, but comes from underneath.
It comes up through the basement floor.
To avoid shifts, freezes, foundation trenches, etc., it is usually over 10' deep.
You want to go under the foundation footing, not through the foundation or basement wall.
But in warmer climates, it could be shallower if slab construction is commonly used instead of basements.

There used to be some lead pipe inside the houses, but the price of lead went through the roof during WWII, so it all got ripped out where ever it was accessible.

 

[Rigby5]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
The word collective means the joint collaboration of local people.
If something is dictated from a far, it is not at all in any way collective.

thats not how progs and communist see it,,
like I said youre a libertarian not a prog or socialist,,,

Wrong.
For example, one of the main factions in the Russian revolution was the Anarchists.
So how could Anarchists be for centralization, and why would Stalin have killed off all the Anarchists, socialists, and Marxists like Trotsky, if there was anything at all centralized by socialists, communists, etc.?

Libertarians are against coercive government, which is not too bad, but they don't believe in protection against abusive monopolies, like company towns, police and fire departments run for profit, etc.

The best example is health care.
With capitalism you are forced to buy private insurance in order to even see a doctor. And you as an individual have no negotiating clout, so you will have to pay 4 times what big companies will have to pay for their individual employees.
Clearly collective public health care costs less than half as much and is much better quality.

 

[Rigby5]

What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

I'm not a Constitutional expert so I probably missed it but where in our Constitution all the things you enumerate prohibited?

If you look at the 9th and 10th amendments of the bill of rights, it says the federal government can only do what it is explicitly authorized to do, and no more.
Drugs and alcohol are medical and totally out of federal jurisdiction.
The 2nd amendment explicitly prohibits any federal weapons jurisdiction.
Three strikes laws prevent a fair trial because they try to mandate sentence minimums, which is totally illegal.
Asset forfeiture is illegal because confiscation is done before trial, and because it generates a profit motive for government to lie.
Do I really have to explain why getting US soldiers killed in wars that are not defensive, like Vietnam or Iraq, are illegal?

 

[Rigby5]

Getting back to lead water pipes:

{...
Lead was commonly used to make pipes in plumbing for many centuries. It is cheap, rust resistant, and easy to weld. Eventually, health concerns encouraged a switch to alternate plumbing materials.1 Copper and specialized plastics (like PVC and PEX) are now choice products for water pipes in homes.

However, many older homes still have the original lead pipes installed. In the United States and Canada, homes built before the 1950s should be suspected of having lead pipes, unless they have been replaced already.23 Lead soldering, applied to join together copper pipes, continued to be used well into the 1980s.
...
Old lead pipes are not automatically a health threat. A layer of oxidized metal forms on the pipe surface over time, preventing water from directly contacting the raw lead. By controlling the pH of the water at the water treatment plant, municipalities can prevent corrosion of this oxidized layer, and even add certain chemicals to facilitate the formation of a protective coating (a form of scale). When the water chemistry is not properly adjusted, as the case was in Flint, lead is leached out of the pipes and can reach consumers’ homes at dangerous levels.7
...}

 

[progressive hunter]

It could be a ruse to enable Biden to throw a lot of money at a non-existing problem, and then

Depends.
Some investments have a greater pay off than cost, so are worth it.
Example are Hoover dam, the St. Lawrence Seaway, TVA, etc.
I would love rural broadband myself.
When government does pump priming borrowing and spending, it can enrich consumers and boost the whole economy, making the initial borrowing small in comparison, due to inflation.
So it depends on if well researched and executed.

If you're attempting to address any of my comments, you should know that I left this discussion because it's a portrayal of the same sort of ignorance that is being displayed by Americans on the Covid vaccine.

As a catch-all reply though, I consider your comments to be nuanced enough to serve for further discussion. The reason being, the US is too far behind already for thinking of piecemeal fixes. My opinion is that it's going to take huge spending and the inherent risks attached.

Americans are angry and the attack against government is at least a symbolic effort to bring down bad government. There is risk of it growing into something that is more than just a symbolic joke.

Biden must succeed this time in breaking the country away from the 'American way', which is inequality and the hold the very wealthy has on the ordinary people.

Don't forget, the Jan.6th. riot was against government, not just one side of governemnt.

If Biden doesn't succeed then Trump is going to be back offering his solution to the problems in America. That will be a fascist bid for power.

And then no solution to the problem, because that would be contrary to a fascist agenda.

Have Americans matured enough yet to just leave the Trump experience in the dust, as a horrible experience? I think there are several indications now that would be true!

First I should provide the context that I am extreme left wing, liberal, progressive, socialist, etc.
But I did not mind the congress occupation because I do think our government is way corrupt, even though I do not think the election was rigged more than the usual poor choice of candidates.
What I don't like about our government are illegal legislation like Prohibition, the War on Drugs, federal gun laws, federal health laws, 3 Strikes, asset forfeiture, illegal wars, etc.

But I do like the idea of investing in mass transit, transportation in general, and stimulus.

other than mass transit thats not a left wing liberal,, more like right wing libertarian,

and the best stimulus happens the same way,, local,, the feds always take a big cut and use it as a political slush fund

as for mas transit,, like everything the government gets involved in it cost more and the waste is usually off the charts,,

best to let that happen on a local level where the needs came be evaluated first hand and waste left to a minimum,,

Leftwing, progressive, liberal, socialists are always for local over federal.
Federal it too far away, costs too much to contact or try to influence, and are always corrupt by corporate interests.
We need large government to counter large corruption, but it always provides its own corruption as well.
Leftwing, progressive, liberals are about individual liberties and rights.
Do words like cooperative, communal, or collective imply centralization?
Not at all.

not progressives or socialist,, they are for a single powerful government

collective is the very definition of centralization,,, it says all are controlled together with one power and is the polar opposite of individual liberty,,

Wrong.
You just have no idea what a progressive or socialist is.
Look up "Sewer Socialists", progressives like Phillip and Robert La Follette, in the state of WI, for the last century.
Then look up socialist mayors of Milwaukee, WI.

• Emil Seidel, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1910-1912
• Daniel Webster Hoan, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1916-1940
• Frank Zeidler, Mayor of Milwaukee, 1948-1960

It is always amusing when conservatives try to tell socialists what socialism really is?

Someone has to do it because they always lie about it.

I notice the image of Hitler.
And do you realize Hitler was an anti-socialist?
Under Hitler, the capitalist corporations made the most profits ever.
Hitler was appointed by Hindenberg, the representative of the oligarchs, the aristocracy, military, and corporations.
Hitler had all the socialists murdered.
The Night of the Long Knives.

Socialism does not imply centralization.
It is capitalist corporations that are the greatest danger, because they are even more centralized than federal. They are multi national.

so an anti socialist was running the national socialist party???

I think you have your definitions wrong,,