Zone1 They Were Eyewitnesses to the Death and Resurrection

[ding]

I don't doubt that 'they' worshiped him as God and endured persecution for doing so. I just know that 'they' are generally converts, like Paul, who never witnessed any of Jesus' miracles for himself.

According to the accounts lots of people witnessed the miracles performed by Christ, right? In fact, we know they talked about it because there are quite a few accounts where people sought out Jesus to perform miracles for them, right?

As for Paul, he had his own supernatural encounter, right? So didn't Paul experience a miracle of his own?

 

[ding]

Conspiracy is your word, not mine.

Only because you aren't willing to admit that you believe it was a conspiracy. But I don't know how you can deny it if you believe the accounts that were recorded as historical events are really just mythology. I mean how can you believe as you do and not believe a conspiracy was involved if everything in those accounts were lies, right?

 

[ding]

Were NT stories created to support Christian theology, e.g., fulfillment of prophesies, or not?

I believe the accounts were historical accounts of the 3 1/2 year ministry of Christ. I base that on the fact that the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God, that the written accounts explain why they worshiped Jesus as God, and that there are no opposing accounts which challenge these accounts.

As for your belief that the NT accounts were created to show Jesus fulfilling OT prophecies, if that is what you believe then how can you claim that it wasn't a conspiracy? But most importantly, where is your evidence for this. If that were truly the case, where are the opposing accounts? Where are the accounts which say, this stuff never happened and they are creating lies to fulfill the prophecies? Do you honestly believe that if these accounts were untrue and were designed to trick Jews into believing that Jesus was fulfilling Jewish prophecies, that the Jewish religious leaders wouldn't have made that argument back then? So where is your evidence for that?

 

[ding]

They didn't see, they heard.

Where's your evidence for that? My evidence that they saw Christ perform miracles is the written manuscripts.

What evidence do you have that these miracles were never performed by Christ? What evidence do you have that these accounts were hearsay?

 

[ding]

Every eyewitness account of Jesus appearing to his disciples after his crucifixion and death was an eyewitness account of what was seen and heard in dreams.

Where's your evidence for that? Because that's not what was recorded in the written manuscripts.

 

[alang1216]

Let's compare the realities of life that are common and recurring to all generations. My reality is that I couldn't care less about miracles that occurred two thousand years ago to other people. I could not care less about some future afterlife, no matter how beautiful. I needed help NOW, in this life, this reality, where even one miracle wouldn't be of any help today.

Think about it. You see a miracle today that gives you knowledge God is, that no doubt about it God exists. Whee! After that happy burst, then what? How does that change your life? In Revelation John had good news, and...they tasted as sweet as honey. At first. But then...the next steps that had to be taken--that second stage--left him with a sour stomach for that period. Then came the final stage where all is well.

Would you make it through the second, sour stomach, stage? A listened to a recent homily and it began with science: In the brain a chemical reaction takes place when a person says 'yes' or responds positively, and positive things can take place. The homily continued that Mary's example of simply saying 'Yes' changed her life and the result of her saying Yes changed the world.

The reason Christianity worked in the ancient world and is still working today, has nothing to do with miracles or the afterlife. It is about the message. It is about saying Yes to God and Yes to whatever is placed before us in this life. It is saying Yes to the Way Christ taught.

Alang, your response to God, to the Way of Christianity is, "No" or perhaps, "Not yet". To back up your reasoning you point to Greek gods and Greek philosophers. You pursue the 'No'. Even though I just heard the 'Yes' homily recently, the Gospel message, Christ's teachings pointing me to 'Yes'. And it has made sublime difference.

I highly recommend, Pursue the Yes.

A fine positive message. If it works for you, that's great but that doesn't really connect to the history of Christianity.

 

[ding]

* Mithra was born on December 25th. Called "Birthday of the Unconquered Sun", it was incorporated into the church in the 4th century AD as the birthday of Christ. Although Jesus was born in October, christians today celebrate Mithra' birthday, believing it was Jesus' birthday.

* Mithra' birth was witnessed by shepherds and by Magi (wise men) who brought gifts to his sacred birth-cave of the Rock

* He was considered a great travelling teacher and master.

* He had 12 companions or disciples, which in Mithraism were represented by the 12 astrological signs.

* He performed miracles.

* He was buried in a tomb.

* After three days he rose again, but with no witnesses to the event

* His triumph over death and ascension to heaven were celebrated at the Mithran's most important festival, Easter, held at the spring equinox when the sun rises toward its apogee

* Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."

* He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."

* In the cult's rituals, Mithra was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.

* His sacred day was Sunday, and was called "the Lord's Day" hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.

* Mithraism had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper" in which bread was eaten as a symbol of Mithra' body, and wine was drunk as a symbol of the blood shed when Mithra overpowered and killed the bull

* Mithra performed many miracles, including raising the dead, healing the sick, making the blind see and the lame walk, casting out devils.

* Mithra was said to carry keys to the kingdom of heaven.

* Mithra was called the god of light and truth, the god of mediation between god and man. He was to his worshippers The creator of life; The Mediator between man and the higher gods; The God of light; The All-seeing one; The Guardian of oaths (covenants); The Protector of the righteous in this world and also in the next.

* A trinity godhead comprised of Mithra (divine god of truth), Rashnu (divine god of justice, judgement and righteousness), Vohu Manah (divine spirit of enlightenment). These three persons were separate yet they were one.

Before returning to heaven, Mithra was said to have celebrated a Last Supper with followers, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac. In memory of this, his worshippers partook of a sacramental meal of bread marked with the Mithran cross of light. This was one of the seven Mithraic sacraments, believed to be the models for the Christians' seven sacraments, which follow them identically. It was called mizd, latin missa, in other words, English mass. Mithra' image was buried in a rock tomb, the same sacred cave that represented his mother's womb. He was withdrawn from it and said to live again.

Mithraism was an ascetic, anti-female religion. Its priesthood consisted of celibate men only

Sounds like you believe it was a conspiracy.

 

[ding]

A fine positive message. If it works for you, that's great but that doesn't really connect to the history of Christianity.

Whose history of Christianity? The history recorded in the written manuscripts? Or your history where you discard the evidence?

 

[hobelim]

Where's your evidence for that? Because that's not what was recorded in the written manuscripts.

Reality is the evidence. Dead people don't pop into and out of locked rooms, don't eat fish, or ask anyone to poke their wounds except in dreams, the only place where such things are possible.

Its the only way that these "eyewitness accounts" could possibly be true.

 

[hobelim]

Sounds like you believe it was a conspiracy.

It was a conspiracy to assimilate and pervert Christianity effectively neutering it by burying the teachings of Jesus under a mountain of blasphemy upon which your church sits like a dragon.

Rome has used "the power of death" for defying Divine Law to subjugate the nations since 325 when your antichrist, created in the image and likeness of Mithras, was unleashed on the world.

Still works like a charm! Damn diabolically clever them 4th century Romans. You? not so much.

Dumb all over. A little ugly on the side.

 

[ding]

Reality is the evidence. Dead people don't pop into and out of locked rooms, don't eat fish, or ask anyone to poke their wounds except in dreams, the only place where such things are possible.

Its the only way that these "eyewitness accounts" could possibly be true.

That's why it was a big deal when it happened and why the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God. Where's your evidence of opposing accounts?

Because according to the accounts crowds of people witnessed the miracles performed by Christ. There are quite a few accounts where people sought out Jesus to perform miracles for them. Which corroborates that lots of people witnessed the miracles and talked about the miracles.

 

[ding]

It was a conspiracy to assimilate and pervert Christianity effectively neutering it by burying the teachings of Jesus under a mountain of blasphemy upon which your church sits like a dragon.

Rome has used "the power of death" for defying Divine Law to subjugate the nations since 325 when your antichrist, created in the image and likeness of Mithras, was unleashed on the world.

Still works like a charm! Damn diabolically clever them 4th century Romans. You? not so much.

Dumb all over. A little ugly on the side.

Unfortunately for you the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God which blows your conspiracy theory out of the water.

 

[hobelim]

Because according to the accounts crowds of people witnessed the miracles performed by Christ.

lol....You were talking about the resurrection. Pay attention. To yourself!

 

[ding]

lol....You were talking about the resurrection. Pay attention. To yourself!

All part and parcel. But too your point, YOUR post was not limited to the resurrection, so maybe you should be paying attention.

 

[hobelim]

Unfortunately for you the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God which blows your conspiracy theory out of the water.

Right.

Thanks to Pauls hatred for Jesus and efforts to destroy Christianity insuring the Jewish people and any intelligent person would reject the teachings of Jesus out of hand by perpetuating the lie that Jesus abolished Divine law and claimed to be God in the flesh which would make him insane.

 

[ding]

Right.

Thanks to Pauls hatred for Jesus and efforts to destroy Christianity insuring the Jewish people would reject the teachings of Jesus saying he abolished divine law and claimed to be God which would make him insane.

No. Thanks to their witnessing the miracles performed by Christ. Where is your evidence of opposing accounts?

 

[hobelim]

All part and parcel. But too your point, YOUR post was not limited to the resurrection, so maybe you should be paying attention.

Say what? What I wrote was specifically about the eyewitness accounts of Jesus after he died.


"Reality is the evidence. Dead people don't pop into and out of locked rooms, don't eat fish, or ask anyone to poke their wounds except in dreams, the only place where such things are possible.

Its the only way that these "eyewitness accounts" could possibly be true."

 

[ding]

Say what? What I wrote was specifically about the eyewitness accounts of Jesus after he died.


"Reality is the evidence. Dead people don't pop into and out of locked rooms, don't eat fish, or ask anyone to poke their wounds except in dreams, the only place where such things are possible.

Its the only way that these "eyewitness accounts" could possibly be true."

The eye witness accounts - as recorded in the manuscripts - is that Jesus did rise from the dead. And that's one of the reasons the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God. Along with the other 38 or so miracles he performed in front of large crowds.

Where is your evidence of accounts which challenged the account of Christ's resurrection?

 

[hobelim]

As for Paul, he had his own supernatural encounter, right? So didn't Paul experience a miracle of his own?

Paul claimed to have a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus where he supposedly went blind.

Then he fumbled around for a few day and then pretended to regain his vision which must have made it extremely hard for the disciples to watch without bursting out laughing because they knew that when Jesus gave sight to the blind he cured a blindness of perception not sight.

THEY KNEW HE WAS FAKING IT.

 

[hobelim]

The eye witness accounts - as recorded in the manuscripts - is that Jesus did rise from the dead

I agree, Jesus rose from the dead twice. The first resurrection was from the tomb of pharisaic beliefs and practices. The second resurrection is from the death of the body to an eternal abode.

Permanent existence as a higher form of life.

Where is your evidence of accounts which challenged the account of Christ's resurrection?

I am not challenging the accounts of the resurrection. I am revealing what actually happened.

You know, the next time you put on your thinking cap try to include reality in your speculations. Reality matters dingbot. It is a constant constraint on what could possibly be the truth about what actually happened with reported 'miracles' supposedly 'performed' on this same planet. Dufus