Zone1 They Were Eyewitnesses to the Death and Resurrection

[ding]

There is a whole file of textural criticism, it is not just my opinions I'm relating:

What are the methods of historical criticism?​

The methods of historical criticism are strategies used by historians and textual critics to gauge the likelihood that a particular passage is veridical.

The criteria for methods of historical criticism are the following:

1. Multiple Attestation
2. Congruity
3. Coherence
4. Dissimilarity
5. Embarrassing Testimony

How does this dispute the evidence which shows that Jesus was worshiped as God and that the accounts details crowds of people witnessing the miracles he performed?

How does this dispute Jesus being charged for sorcery?

How does this dispute that no one said Jesus didn't perform the miracles documented in the written manuscripts?

 

[ding]

How many religions worshipped gods? Every one.

Different people will have different perceptions of God. What bearing do you believe that has on the miracles performed by Christ, that were witnessed by Jewish crowds, documented in written manuscripts that were never challenged by the religious leaders of the day who accused Jesus of sorcery instead?

 

[Meriweather]

A fine positive message. If it works for you, that's great but that doesn't really connect to the history of Christianity.

Yes, It does. It was what Jesus taught. I am certain I am not the only one who adopted them into his/her life. It comes through in Paul's letters as well.

 

[Meriweather]

* Mithra was born on December 25th. Called "Birthday of the Unconquered Sun", it was incorporated into the church in the 4th century AD as the birthday of Christ. Although Jesus was born in October, christians today celebrate Mithra' birthday, believing it was Jesus' birthday.

* Mithra' birth was witnessed by shepherds and by Magi (wise men) who brought gifts to his sacred birth-cave of the Rock

* He was considered a great travelling teacher and master.

* He had 12 companions or disciples, which in Mithraism were represented by the 12 astrological signs.

* He performed miracles.

* He was buried in a tomb.

* After three days he rose again, but with no witnesses to the event

* His triumph over death and ascension to heaven were celebrated at the Mithran's most important festival, Easter, held at the spring equinox when the sun rises toward its apogee

* Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."

* He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."

* In the cult's rituals, Mithra was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.

* His sacred day was Sunday, and was called "the Lord's Day" hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.

* Mithraism had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper" in which bread was eaten as a symbol of Mithra' body, and wine was drunk as a symbol of the blood shed when Mithra overpowered and killed the bull

* Mithra performed many miracles, including raising the dead, healing the sick, making the blind see and the lame walk, casting out devils.

* Mithra was said to carry keys to the kingdom of heaven.

* Mithra was called the god of light and truth, the god of mediation between god and man. He was to his worshippers The creator of life; The Mediator between man and the higher gods; The God of light; The All-seeing one; The Guardian of oaths (covenants); The Protector of the righteous in this world and also in the next.

* A trinity godhead comprised of Mithra (divine god of truth), Rashnu (divine god of justice, judgement and righteousness), Vohu Manah (divine spirit of enlightenment). These three persons were separate yet they were one.

Before returning to heaven, Mithra was said to have celebrated a Last Supper with followers, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac. In memory of this, his worshippers partook of a sacramental meal of bread marked with the Mithran cross of light. This was one of the seven Mithraic sacraments, believed to be the models for the Christians' seven sacraments, which follow them identically. It was called mizd, latin missa, in other words, English mass. Mithra' image was buried in a rock tomb, the same sacred cave that represented his mother's womb. He was withdrawn from it and said to live again.

Mithraism was an ascetic, anti-female religion. Its priesthood consisted of celibate men only

If you can Google information that finds comparison between Jesus and Mithra, you can certainly find more using Google to find the differences as well.

 

[alang1216]

How does this dispute the fact that the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God and there are no manuscripts which challenge the veracity of the miracles performed by Christ?

Silly question. If such a challenge was made, how would we know?

 

[alang1216]

Yes, It does. It was what Jesus taught. I am certain I am not the only one who adopted them into his/her life. It comes through in Paul's letters as well.

Not that it matters but I'm skeptical how much you know about what Jesus taught.

 

[alang1216]

How does this dispute the evidence which shows that Jesus was worshiped as God and that the accounts details crowds of people witnessing the miracles he performed?

How does this dispute Jesus being charged for sorcery?

How does this dispute that no one said Jesus didn't perform the miracles documented in the written manuscripts?

So what was written by Christians proves what was written by Christians? Not to me.

 

[Meriweather]

Not that it matters but I'm skeptical how much you know about what Jesus taught.

Enough to get me over mountains. Plus, it follows the usual path of knowing...the more one knows, the more one realizes how much one does not know.

 

[LibertyKid]

So what was written by Christians proves what was written by Christians? Not to me.

There is approximately 1300 years between the life of Alexander the Great and the first known historical writings of Alexander the Great. Do we deny Alexander the Great's existence? The life of Jesus has manuscripts dating within the first century of his life from the letters of Paul. Yet, the mental gymnastics to disprove that Jesus was real, or that what he did, or that he was crucified and or resurrected is mind numbing.

The written and oral traditions (eventually written down as well) point to the fact that a man named Jesus lived in the first Century. Now, what you do with that information is clearly up to you? I like how C.S. Lewis basically summed it up: Jesus is either a Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?

If you're interested a good start would be to watch the following: Lee Strobel is a former investigative journalist for the Chicago Tribune and former Atheist. He went on journey to disprove the life of Jesus, yet, the outcome was the exact opposite.

 

[alang1216]

There is approximately 1300 years between the life of Alexander the Great and the first known historical writings of Alexander the Great. Do we deny Alexander the Great's existence?

Your point is good but your facts are a bit off:

The earliest known historical writings about Alexander the Great are attributed to the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus, who wrote in the 1st century BC in his work "Bibliotheca historica" (Library of World History), specifically Book 17 which details Alexander's conquests​

As probably the greatest single influence on Western culture, Jesus/Paul are considered number 2, he left an enormous footprint behind in the language, politics, and geography of the region.

The life of Jesus has manuscripts dating within the first century of his life from the letters of Paul. Yet, the mental gymnastics to disprove that Jesus was real, or that what he did, or that he was crucified and or resurrected is mind numbing.

I have no doubt that an apocalyptic preacher from Nazareth lived and died by crucifixion. The supernatural part is, not surprisingly, doubtful to my atheist's mind.

The written and oral traditions (eventually written down as well) point to the fact that a man named Jesus lived in the first Century. Now, what you do with that information is clearly up to you? I like how C.S. Lewis basically summed it up: Jesus is either a Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?

I'll go with door number 4, he was mythologized post-mortem.

If you're interested a good start would be to watch the following: Lee Strobel is a former investigative journalist for the Chicago Tribune and former Atheist. He went on journey to disprove the life of Jesus, yet, the outcome was the exact opposite.

If you're interested in an opposing journey and point of view, a good start would be any of the books of Bart Ehrman. He started as an evangelical Christian:

Bart Denton Ehrman[a] (born October 5, 1955) is an American New Testament scholar focusing on textual criticism of the New Testament, the historical Jesus, and the origins and development of early Christianity. He has written and edited 30 books, including three college textbooks. He has also authored six New York Times bestsellers. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.​

​

On October 5, 1955, Ehrman was born in Lawrence, Kansas, and subsequently grew up there before attending Lawrence High School, where he was on the state champion debate team in 1973. He began studying the Bible, biblical theology, and biblical languages at Moody Bible Institute,[2] where he earned the school's three-year diploma in 1976.[3] He earned his BA from Wheaton College in Illinois in 1978. He later earned an MDiv from Princeton Theological Seminary in 1981 and a PhD in 1985, where he studied textual criticism of the Bible, development of the New Testament canon and New Testament apocrypha under Bruce Metzger.​

 

[hobelim]

If you can Google information that finds comparison between Jesus and Mithra, you can certainly find more using Google to find the differences as well.

Sure, you worship and literally eat bread made by human hands for spiritual life and drink wine that turns into blood (yeah right) after the priest goes hocus pocus presto mundo alakazam!

People partook in the divine nature of Mithras by eating bread and drinking the blood of a bull.


Hows that? And I didn't even need google!

 

[Meriweather]

Sure, you worship and literally eat bread made by human hands for spiritual life and drink wine that turns into blood (yeah right) after the priest goes hocus pocus presto mundo alakazam!

People partook in the divine nature of Mithras by eating bread and drinking the blood of a bull.


Hows that? And I didn't even need google!

I get that you believe you are superior to Jesus, Mithras, and all of us. You look upon us with contempt because all you see is--not a divine spark--but idiocy. You go your way...I'll go mine.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

So what was written by Christians proves what was written by Christians? Not to me.

"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed"

 

[alang1216]

Didn't we already establish the first Christians were Jewish?

His 12 Apostles were most likely Jews. After that, not so much.

And didn't we already establish that the reason more Jews didn't follow Jesus was because either they didn't witness his miracles or followed the lead of the Jewish religious establishment which was against Jesus?

I agree they didn't witness miracles but, Jews are not like Catholics, they never had a 'Pope'. Jews back then were not homogenous, there were various flavors of Judaism so no one Jewish religious establishment spoke for a majority of Jews.

 

[hobelim]

I get that you believe you are superior to Jesus,

Nonsense. I do not think that I am superior to Jesus. Everything I have made known to you I have drawn from what Jesus taught glorifying him to the intelligent which makes him superior to me.

Mithras, and all of us. You look upon us with contempt because all you see is--not a divine spark--but idiocy.

Well, first of all, how many of you are there? Secondly if seeking spiritual life from a piece of bread isn't idiocy, what is? You might as well ask a block of wood to help you understand a proverb.

You go your way...I'll go mine.

Sure,'

buh bye

 

[Carl in Michigan]

His 12 Apostles were most likely Jews. After that, not so much

"Most likely"??????

 

[hobelim]

"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed"

"So pay attention to how you hear. To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given. But for those who are not listening, even what they think they understand will be taken away from them.”

 

[alang1216]

"Most likely"??????

Does the NT specifically say that all were Jews? I must have missed that, could you point me to the passage(s)? Thanks

 

[Carl in Michigan]

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Does the NT specifically say that all were Jews? I must have missed that, could you point me to the passage(s)? Thanks