Zone1 They Were Eyewitnesses to the Death and Resurrection

[alang1216]

View attachment 1061647Were all the twelve Apostles Jews?

Q. Were all the twelve Apostles Jews?
A. We have no good reason from Scripture or Tradition to think otherwise.

It appears not all the Apostles were explicitly said to be Jews but it is likely they were.

 

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Silly question. If such a challenge was made, how would we know?

That's my point. We don't know because no one made that argument. But if the first Christians - who were Jewish - were worshiping Jesus as God because of the miracles he performed and there were any evidence that any part of it were untrue, you can be certain that it would have been recorded. After all it was recorded in the Babylonian Talmud that Jesus was put to death for sorcery and inciting Israel to apostacy. So clearly the accusation of sorcery was based upon something supernatural that he did, right? But what wasn't recorded was that he was a fraud or that the people had been duped.

 

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So what was written by Christians proves what was written by Christians? Not to me.

Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny, Lucian and the Babylonian Talmud are non-Christian sources which confirm Jesus was worshiped as God for performing miraculous feats which corroborate the accounts in the 24,000 written manuscripts.

 

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His 12 Apostles were most likely Jews. After that, not so much.

And you evidence for this is what? Wishful thinking?

Traditionally, the period from the death of Jesus until the death of the last of the Twelve Apostles is called the Apostolic Age.[94] The first Christians were men and women who had known Jesus and who witnessed to his resurrection.[95] They were a Jewish sect with an apocalyptic eschatology. They regarded Jesus as Lord, resurrected messiah, and the eternally existing Son of God,[7][96][note 8]

Christianity in the 1st century - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[alang1216]

That's my point. We don't know. But if the first Christians - who were Jewish - were worshiping Jesus as God because of the miracles he performed and there were any evidence that any part of it were untrue, you can be certain that it would have been recorded. After all it was recorded in the Babylonian Talmud that Jesus was put to death for sorcery and inciting Israel to apostacy. So clearly the accusation of sorcery was based upon something supernatural that he did, right? But what wasn't recorded was that he was a fraud or that the people had been duped.

I'll put it in the same class as 'what came before the big bang?'. I don't know but I do know that nobody else knows for sure.

The supernatural thing is possible but, IMHO, improbable. I have little faith (get it) that the people of Jesus' time could tell a small miracle from an ordinary event. If Jesus prayed for someone who was ill and they then got better, is that a miracle? Faith healing has a long history, are they miracles when they work?

I also doubt Jesus was put to death for sorcery and inciting Israel to apostacy. Those are not Roman crimes and certainly don't warrant crucifixion, that was generally saved for treason against Rome.

 

[alang1216]

And you evidence for this is what? Wishful thinking?

Traditionally, the period from the death of Jesus until the death of the last of the Twelve Apostles is called the Apostolic Age.[94] The first Christians were men and women who had known Jesus and who witnessed to his resurrection.[95] They were a Jewish sect with an apocalyptic eschatology. They regarded Jesus as Lord, resurrected messiah, and the eternally existing Son of God,[7][96][note 8]

It is widely accepted that Jews did not convert in large numbers so after the first few decades (the Apostolic Age) or so, most Christians came from pagan conversions.

 

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I agree they didn't witness miracles but, Jews are not like Catholics, they never had a 'Pope'. Jews back then were not homogenous, there were various flavors of Judaism so no one Jewish religious establishment spoke for a majority of Jews.

Then why was it recorded in the Babylonian Talmud that Jesus was put to death for sorcery and inciting Israel to apostacy. If Jesus didn't perform supernatural acts then why the charge of sorcery in the first place? If Israel had no religious establishment then how were the Talmuds even written in the first place?

This is just another red herring of yours in a long line of your red herrings. None of which have you offered one shred of evidence for. I thought you guys were big on evidence? Where's your evidence? Seems like you are taking your beliefs on faith.

 

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I'll put it in the same class as 'what came before the big bang?'. I don't know but I do know that nobody else knows for sure.

The evidence says otherwise. You know... all of the evidence you are rejecting on faith.

 

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The supernatural thing is possible but, IMHO, improbable. I have little faith (get it) that the people of Jesus' time could tell a small miracle from an ordinary event. If Jesus prayed for someone who was ill and they then got better, is that a miracle? Faith healing has a long history, are they miracles when they work?

You know what Sherlock Holmes says about that, right? If you eliminate the impossible then what you have left must be what it is despite how improbable it is.

Your problem is you are having to change the accounts to match the outcome you are seeking. You've changed big miracles in front of crowds to Jesus praying for them and them just naturally getting better. That's not what the accounts record. So unless you are willing to make a conspiracy argument, your logic is flawed.

 

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I also doubt Jesus was put to death for sorcery and inciting Israel to apostacy. Those are not Roman crimes and certainly don't warrant crucifixion, that was generally saved for treason against Rome.

Again... you are having to change the accounts to match the outcome you are seeking. That's exactly what the accounts recorded. But now you are changing Jesus was put to death for blaspheme and sorcery to Jesus was put to death for treason. So again, unless you are willing to make a conspiracy argument, your logic is flawed.

And yet another in your long line of red herrings with absolutely no evidence to back it up. What faith you must have.

 

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It is widely accepted that Jews did not convert in large numbers so after the first few decades (the Apostolic Age) or so, most Christians came from pagan conversions.

And this disputes the first Christians being Jewish and that the first Christians didn't witness miraculous feats by Jesus how?

 

[alang1216]

Then why was it recorded in the Babylonian Talmud that Jesus was put to death for sorcery and inciting Israel to apostacy. If Jesus didn't perform supernatural acts then why the charge of sorcery in the first place?

So it has never happened that people are charged with sorcery that never engaged in anything supernatural? Good thing you weren't at the Salem witch trials you could have gotten some more girls killed.

If Israel had no religious establishment then how were the Talmuds even written in the first place?

Same way as the NT was written.

This is just another red herring of yours in a long line of your red herrings. None of which have you offered one shred of evidence for. I thought you guys were big on evidence? Where's your evidence? Seems like you are taking your beliefs on faith.

My strongest evidence is your lack of convincing evidence. Can you perform a supernatural act? Do you know anyone who has? When was the last miracle done?

 

[alang1216]

The evidence says otherwise. You know... all of the evidence you are rejecting on faith.

None of your evidence passes the sniff test. Sorry.

 

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So it has never happened that people are charged with sorcery that never engaged in anything supernatural? Good thing you weren't at the Salem witch trials you could have gotten some more girls killed.

The point is that it corroborates what was recorded in the 24,000 written manuscripts and corroborates the early Christians worshiping Jesus as God.

But I will play along with your latest red herring and say so what? What does it have to do with Jesus? The 24,000 written accounts detail miraculous feats by Jesus, non-Christian historians record the early Christians worshiping Jesus as God because he supposedly performed miraculous feats. The Babylonian Talmud recorded Jesus being put to death for sorcery and bringing Israel to apostacy. So unless you are making a conspiracy argument, your logic is still flawed.

 

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Same way as the NT was written.

And? Created a central authority.

 

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My strongest evidence is your lack of convincing evidence. Can you perform a supernatural act? Do you know anyone who has? When was the last miracle done?

Saying strongest evidence implies you have some other evidence? What other evidence do you have?

 

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My strongest evidence is your lack of convincing evidence.

That's not evidence. Do you have any real evidence?

 

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Can you perform a supernatural act? Do you know anyone who has? When was the last miracle done?

No. That's why it was a really big deal when Jesus performed like 40 of them. Many in front of crowds. So overwhelmingly convincing that they began worshipping Jesus as God despite being persecuted for it.

 

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None of your evidence passes the sniff test. Sorry.

Says the guy with no evidence at all and accepts his beliefs on faith alone.

 

[alang1216]

Again... you are having to change the accounts to match the outcome you are seeking. That's exactly what the accounts recorded. But now you are changing Jesus was put to death for blaspheme and sorcery to Jesus was put to death for treason. So again, unless you are willing to make a conspiracy argument, your logic is flawed.

Roman law is well documented. For minor offenses people were flogged, exiled, or sold into slavery.

And yet another in your long line of red herrings with absolutely no evidence to back it up. What faith you must have.

When your evidence meets the criteria of Textual Criticism , let me know.