Zone1 They Were Eyewitnesses to the Death and Resurrection

[ding]

Maybe are judging these 'supernatural feats' or miracles differently. What do you consider a miracle and how often have miracles been performed and by whom? We have faith healers today, are they performing miracles? If someone prays for another's recovery and they get better, is that a miracle?

Read the accounts. Controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases and raising the dead. He was put to death for sorcery and leading Israel to apostacy because he performed supernatural acts and represented himself as being equal to God. No wonder the first Christians - who witnessed his acts - worshiped him as God.

Do you see any modern people controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases, raising the dead and claiming they are equal to God?

 

[alang1216]

What evidence of the accounts of supernatural feats performed by Jesus are contradictory?

They all contradict my personal experience and, as Sagan said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". I find the evidence in the NT as much less than 'extraordinary'.

 

[alang1216]

Read the accounts. Controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases and raising the dead. He was put to death for sorcery and leading Israel to apostacy because he performed supernatural acts and represented himself as being equal to God. No wonder the first Christians - who witnessed his acts - worshiped him as God.

Are you going to ignore my other questions?

 

[ding]

I guess I misunderstood your reply. If Jews had a central religious authority why were there Essenes, Pharisees, Sadducees, apocalypticists, and Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds?

I wasn't possible for Jewish religious leaders to accuse Jesus of sorcery and apostacy, not because there was no central religious authority, but because those weren't crimes under Roman law and, even if the Romans wanted to punish Jesus, they had other means to do it. Crucifixtion was reserved for runaway slaves and treason.

The Jerusalem Talmud was compiled around 400 CE. The Babylonian Talmud was compiled around 500 CE.

How do you believe that discredits the Babylonian Talmud recording that Jesus was put to death for sorcery and inciting Israel to apostacy?

You argue it wasn't possible for Jesus to be put to death under Roman law but the facts are Jesus was put to death by Romans and that the Babylonian Talmud records Jesus was put to death for sorcery and inciting apostacy. How do you explain this?

 

[ding]

Are you going to ignore my other questions?

I didn't ignore your other questions. Do you see any modern people controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases, raising the dead and claiming they are equal to God?

The answer is no. So not a good analog.

Why do you keep ignoring my question of where's your evidence?

 

[ding]

They all contradict my personal experience and, as Sagan said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". I find the evidence in the NT as much less than 'extraordinary'.

Your personal experience is not evidence against supernatural acts being performed 2000 years ago by Jesus.

Again... it's because it's never been done before that validates his claim of being equal to God.

 

[alang1216]

The Jerusalem Talmud was compiled around 400 CE. The Babylonian Talmud was compiled around 500 CE.

How do you believe that discredits the Babylonian Talmud recording that Jesus was put to death for sorcery and inciting Israel to apostacy?

Why was it one but not the other? If the event took place in Jerusalem I'd think it would be in that Talmud, not one written far away.

You argue it wasn't possible for Jesus to be put to death under Roman law but the facts are Jesus was put to death by Romans and that the Babylonian Talmud records Jesus was put to death for sorcery and inciting apostacy. How do you explain this?

Did the writer of the Babylonian Talmud witness the event first hand or did he hear it 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand.

 

[ding]

Why was it one but not the other? If the event took place in Jerusalem I'd think it would be in that Talmud, not one written far away.

Don't know. Do you have some evidence of a conspiracy?

 

[ding]

Did the writer of the Babylonian Talmud witness the event first hand or did he hear it 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand.

Probably even further than that. Which makes it normal for historical events in antiquity.

It seems like you only have arguments against evidence but don't have any evidence to justify having arguments against evidence.

 

[alang1216]

I didn't ignore your other questions. Do you see any modern people controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases, raising the dead and claiming they are equal to God?

Modern people? No. However there are others in the past who didn't claim to be God but claimed to perform miracles, are they all liars?

 

[alang1216]

Don't know. Do you have some evidence of a conspiracy?

I don't know either and I have not evidence of a conspiracy and never claimed any.

 

[ding]

Modern people? No. However there are others in the past who didn't claim to be God but claimed to perform miracles, are they all liars?

Don't know. And how does that negate what Jesus did and his representing himself as being equal to God. Because the evidence for that is overwhelming and consistent.

 

[ding]

I don't know either and I have not evidence of a conspiracy and never claimed any.

You are correct there is no evidence for a conspiracy just like there is no evidence for an accidental misunderstanding.

 

[alang1216]

Your personal experience is not evidence against supernatural acts being performed 2000 years ago by Jesus.

True.

Again... it's because it's never been done before that validates his claim of being equal to God.

There have been plenty of claims of miracles by others, are they all lies. BTW, I don't believe Jesus ever claimed to be equal to God, that claim evolved over time among his followers.

 

[ding]

True.


There have been plenty of claims of miracles by others, are they all lies. BTW, I don't believe Jesus ever claimed to be equal to God, that claim evolved over time among his followers.

So you say. Maybe google "how did Jesus represent himself as God." That should save us both some time. Because it's pretty well known that's why Jesus was put to death.

And if that doesn't help, maybe try this link.

The Claims of Jesus - Jews for Jesus

What did Yeshua (Jesus) claim to be—Messiah, as powerful as God, God himself, atonement? What didn't he claim to be, and what decision do we all need to make?

jewsforjesus.org

 

[alang1216]

Don't know. And how does that negate what Jesus did and his representing himself as being equal to God. Because the evidence for that is overwhelming and consistent.

?Were any of the Apostles equal to God If not, miracles don't really prove who Jesus was.

The Book of Acts in the Bible contains many miracles, including:

• Healing: Peter heals a lame man at the Temple gate, Peter heals Aeneas of a palsy, Paul heals a lame man in Lystra, and Paul cures a man with severe diarrhea
  
  
• Raising the dead: Peter raises Tabitha, or Dorcas, to life
  
  
• Deliverance: Peter is delivered from prison by an angel
  
  
• Jailbreaks: There are three dramatic jailbreaks
  
  
• Pyrotechnics: There are divinely inspired pyrotechnics at Pentecost
  
  
• Healing relics: There are healing relics
  
  
• • Earthquake: There is a worship service so powerful that the earth quakes
    
  • Holy Spirit: Peter and John communicate the Holy Spirit in Samaria
    
  • Shadow healing: Peter's shadow has the power to heal
    
  • Eutychus: St. Paul brings Eutychus back to life after he falls asleep and dies out of a window during Mass
    
  • Viper: A poisonous viper latches onto St. Paul's arm but is thrust off without harming him
    

Miracles in the Book of Acts were supernatural acts that defied natural laws and were meant to show the power of God. They were also meant to validate the messenger and the faith of those who responded to the gospel

 

[alang1216]

So you say. Maybe google "how did Jesus represent himself as God." That should save us both some time. Because it's pretty well known that's why Jesus was put to death.

I Googled and got:

Jesus claimed to be God in many ways, including:

• Using the name "I am": Jesus used the divine name "I am" (ego eimi) in John 8:58, which is a reference to the name "Yahweh" in the Old Testament. This statement caused Roman soldiers to fall to the ground when they came to arrest Jesus. John is the least reliable of the NT books. It was written last and the passages have little to no corroboration in the other NT books.
  
  
• Claiming to be Lord of the Sabbath: Jesus claimed authority over the Sabbath in Mark 2:23-28. This might be interpreted as all men have power over the Sabbath since the sabbath was made for man.
  
  
• Saying he is the way to the Father: Jesus said that the way to the Father is through him in Matthew 11:27 and John 14:1-7. This might be interpreted as men who follow his teaching will be on the path to the father.
  
  
• Making himself equal with God: Jesus made himself equal with God in John 5:18. John's whole message is Jesus' divinity.
  
  
• Fulfilling prophecy: Jesus fulfilled prophecy. Or the stories about Jesus were invented to convince Jews that he was the Messiah. BTW, the Messiah was expected to be a human, not God himself. Cyrus was considered a Messiah but never God.
  
  
• Performing recorded miracles: Jesus performed recorded miracles. Or the stories about Jesus were invented to convince Jews that he was the Messiah and convince pagans he was powerful.
  
  
• Being resurrected from the dead: Jesus was resurrected from the dead. Peter raises Tabitha, or Dorcas, to life
  

Other examples of Jesus' claims to be God include:

• John 1:1, which says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" John's whole message is Jesus' divinity.
• John 20:28, where Thomas the doubting disciple declares Jesus to be "my Lord and my God" Hearsay
• Titus 2:13, where Paul awaits "the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" Hearsay
• Hebrews 1:8, where God the Father refers to Jesus as God Hearsay

 

[ding]

?Were any of the Apostles equal to God If not, miracles don't really prove who Jesus was.

The Book of Acts in the Bible contains many miracles, including:

• Healing: Peter heals a lame man at the Temple gate, Peter heals Aeneas of a palsy, Paul heals a lame man in Lystra, and Paul cures a man with severe diarrhea
  
  
• Raising the dead: Peter raises Tabitha, or Dorcas, to life
  
  
• Deliverance: Peter is delivered from prison by an angel
  
  
• Jailbreaks: There are three dramatic jailbreaks
  
  
• Pyrotechnics: There are divinely inspired pyrotechnics at Pentecost
  
  
• Healing relics: There are healing relics
  
  
• • Earthquake: There is a worship service so powerful that the earth quakes
  • Holy Spirit: Peter and John communicate the Holy Spirit in Samaria
  • Shadow healing: Peter's shadow has the power to heal
  • Eutychus: St. Paul brings Eutychus back to life after he falls asleep and dies out of a window during Mass
  • Viper: A poisonous viper latches onto St. Paul's arm but is thrust off without harming him

Miracles in the Book of Acts were supernatural acts that defied natural laws and were meant to show the power of God. They were also meant to validate the messenger and the faith of those who responded to the gospel

Did they claim to be equal to God as Jesus did? No.

How is this evidence that Jesus didn't perform supernatural feats?

 

[ding]

I Googled and got:

Jesus claimed to be God in many ways, including:

• Using the name "I am": Jesus used the divine name "I am" (ego eimi) in John 8:58, which is a reference to the name "Yahweh" in the Old Testament. This statement caused Roman soldiers to fall to the ground when they came to arrest Jesus. John is the least reliable of the NT books. It was written last and the passages have little to no corroboration in the other NT books.
  
  
• Claiming to be Lord of the Sabbath: Jesus claimed authority over the Sabbath in Mark 2:23-28. This might be interpreted as all men have power over the Sabbath since the sabbath was made for man.
  
  
• Saying he is the way to the Father: Jesus said that the way to the Father is through him in Matthew 11:27 and John 14:1-7. This might be interpreted as men who follow his teaching will be on the path to the father.
  
  
• Making himself equal with God: Jesus made himself equal with God in John 5:18. John's whole message is Jesus' divinity.
  
  
• Fulfilling prophecy: Jesus fulfilled prophecy. Or the stories about Jesus were invented to convince Jews that he was the Messiah. BTW, the Messiah was expected to be a human, not God himself. Cyrus was considered a Messiah but never God.
  
  
• Performing recorded miracles: Jesus performed recorded miracles. Or the stories about Jesus were invented to convince Jews that he was the Messiah and convince pagans he was powerful.
  
  
• Being resurrected from the dead: Jesus was resurrected from the dead. Peter raises Tabitha, or Dorcas, to life

Other examples of Jesus' claims to be God include:

• John 1:1, which says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" John's whole message is Jesus' divinity.
• John 20:28, where Thomas the doubting disciple declares Jesus to be "my Lord and my God" Hearsay
• Titus 2:13, where Paul awaits "the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" Hearsay
• Hebrews 1:8, where God the Father refers to Jesus as God Hearsay

Here are the passages that were the basis of the charge that Jesus incited Israel to apostasy.

#1. (Mt 9:1-8)(Mk 2:1-12)(Lk 5:17-26) Jesus was accused of blasphemy by the scribes for telling the paralytic man that his sins were forgiven.

#2. (Jn 10:30-33) The Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy, and were going to stone Him for “making Himself God.”

#3. (Mt 26:63-66)(Mk 14:61-64)(Lk 22:67-71) The High Priest accused Jesus of blasphemy for claiming to be “the Christ, the Son of God.”

#4. (Jn 5:17-18) (“indirect”) The Jews wanted to “kill” Jesus for saying “that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.”

#5. (Jn 8:58-59) (“indirect”) The Jews were going to stone Jesus for calling Himself the “I AM.”

How many times was Jesus accused of "blasphemy?" - JesusAlive.cc

Jesus was directly accused of blasphemy on three different occasions, and indirectly accused on two more. Following are the 5 occasions.

jesusalive.cc

 

[alang1216]

Did they claim to be equal to God as Jesus did? No.

How is this evidence that Jesus didn't perform supernatural feats?

It shows you didn't have to be God to perform miracles so claiming Jesus was God because he performed miracles is inaccurate.