They said it: Israeli leaders on Palestine

[Coyote]

America was not an empty land when...

etc. etc. etc.

You have no point other than to complain about how many countries are created. Even if you single Israel out.

How many times do we hear the argument that Israel was (virtually) and empty land prior to immigration? It's an argument specifically made by certain factions.

We?

Yeah, you.

It's a real argument.

That you don't like?

OK

It's still real. Even if you don't like it and the land you live on is proof.

It is what it is.

Today. Generations past.

Take this to the debate zone with me.

You're too subtle for my foggy mind tonight Ropey

 

[Hoffstra]

Well then I'm sure you wouldn't mind presenting us with these sources ??

Whether there was significant Arab immigration into Palestine after the beginning of Jewish settlement there in the late 19th century has become a matter of some controversy. According to Martin Gilbert, 50,000 Arabs immigrated to Mandatory Palestine from the neighboring lands between 1919 and 1939 "attracted by the improving agricultural conditions and growing job opportunities, most of them created by the Jews".[29]

The overall assessment of several British reports was that the increase in the Arab population was primarily due to natural increase.[30][31] These included the Hope Simpson report (1930),[32] the Passfield White Paper (1930)[33] the Peel Commission report (1937)[34] and the Survey of Palestine (1945).[35] The 1931 census of Palestine considered the question of illegal immigration since the previous census in 1922.[36] It estimated that unrecorded immigration during that period may have amounted to 9,000 Jews and 4,000 Arabs.[36] It also gave the fraction of persons living in Palestine in 1931 who were born outside Palestine: Muslims, 2%; Christians, 20%; Jews, 58%.[36]


Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In the middle of the first century of the Ottoman rule, i.e., 1550 CE, Bernard Lewis in a study of Ottoman registers of the early Ottoman Rule of Palestine reports:[6]


From the mass of detail in the registers, it is possible to extract something like a general picture of the economic life of the country in that period. Out of a total population of about 300,000 souls, between a fifth and a quarter lived in the six towns of Jerusalem, Gaza, Safed, Nablus, Ramle, and Hebron. The remainder consisted mainly of peasants, living in villages of varying size, and engaged in agriculture. Their main food-crops were wheat and barley in that order, supplemented by leguminous pulses, olives, fruit, and vegetables. In and around most of the towns there was a considerable number of vineyards, orchards, and vegetable gardens.

According to Alexander Scholch, Palestine in 1850 had about 350,000 inhabitants, 30% of whom lived in 13 towns; roughly 85% were Muslims, 11% were Christians and 4% Jews

Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ropey]

How many times do we hear the argument that Israel was (virtually) and empty land prior to immigration? It's an argument specifically made by certain factions.

We?

Yeah, you.

It's a real argument.

That you don't like?

OK

It's still real. Even if you don't like it and the land you live on is proof.

It is what it is.

Today. Generations past.

Take this to the debate zone with me.

You're too subtle for my foggy mind tonight Ropey

Those are a few points I would make in debate, if you would like one. I stand by the original statement and open it if you would like to challenge it in the debate forum.

 

[Roudy]

Do you agree 96 out of every 100 inhabitants of the land between the River and the sea were non-Jews when the political movement of Zionism began in Europe in the late 19th century?

No.

That's historically incorrect.

Most Arab squatters came to Israel at the beginning of the 20st century and suddenly invented a false nation that didn't exist before.

"Palestine was not an empty land when Zionist immigration began.

"The lowest estimates claim there were about 410,000 Arab Muslims and Christians in Palestine in 1893.

"A Zionist estimate claimed there were over 600,000 Arabs in Palestine in the 1890s.

"At this time, the number of Jewish immigrants to Palestine was still negligible by all accounts. It is unlikely that Palestinian immigration prior to this period was due to Zionist development.

"Though uncertainty exists concerning the precise numbers of Arabs living in the areas that later became Israel, it is very unlikely that the claims of Joan Peters that there were less than 100,000 Arabs living there are valid.

"Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries.

"By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times."

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

So "BY" 1948 Arabs had invaded Israel and Jordan in those numbers. And then Jordan was carved out of the mandate to give the invading Arabs a home. But of course that wasn't enough and the Arabs attacked Israel, not to create a "Palestine" but to destroy the Jewish state.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Roudy]

No.

That's historically incorrect.

Most Arab squatters came to Israel at the beginning of the 20st century and suddenly invented a false nation that didn't exist before.

Research and data from various sources including Zionist sources, shows that hundreds of thousands of Arabs lived in Palestine prior to the 20th century.

These neverending stories about Palestine being void of people until the middle of the 20th century, that no Arabs were expelled from Israel during the 1948 War, is tantamount to Historical Revionism and Genocide Denial.

Invading Arabs roamed the area? Gee wiz. Lets make it a homeland then.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

No.

That's historically incorrect.

Most Arab squatters came to Israel at the beginning of the 20st century and suddenly invented a false nation that didn't exist before.

Research and data from various sources including Zionist sources, shows that hundreds of thousands of Arabs lived in Palestine prior to the 20th century.

These neverending stories about Palestine being void of people until the middle of the 20th century, that no Arabs were expelled from Israel during the 1948 War, is tantamount to Historical Revionism and Genocide Denial.

Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing are not the same thing (even if it were true that Israelis expelled the Arabs).

 

[Saigon]

No.

That's historically incorrect.

Most Arab squatters came to Israel at the beginning of the 20st century and suddenly invented a false nation that didn't exist before.

Research and data from various sources including Zionist sources, shows that hundreds of thousands of Arabs lived in Palestine prior to the 20th century.

These neverending stories about Palestine being void of people until the middle of the 20th century, that no Arabs were expelled from Israel during the 1948 War, is tantamount to Historical Revionism and Genocide Denial.

This is a very good point.

I have started to find it very disturbing on this board to see the ease with which some allegedly pro-Israeli posters reinvent history with a flick of their fingers.

If Ben Gurion was man enough to refer to ethnic cleansing in 1947, I think Israelis living in the country he helped found could follow his example.

"Regarding the Galilee, Mr. [Moshe] Sharett already told you that about 100,000 Arabs still now live in the pocket of Galilee. Let us assume that a war breaks out. Then we will be able to cleanse the entire area of Central Galilee, including all its refugees, in one stroke. In this context let me mention some mediators who offered to give us the Galilee without war. What they meant was the populated Galilee. They didn’t offer us the empty Galilee, which we could have only by means of a war. Therefore if a war is extended to cover the whole of Palestine, our greatest gain will be the Galilee. It is because without any special military effort which might imperil other fronts, only by using the troops already assigned for the task, we could accomplish our aim of cleansing the Galilee."

David Ben-Gurion - Wikiquote

 

[Roudy]

No.

That's historically incorrect.

Most Arab squatters came to Israel at the beginning of the 20st century and suddenly invented a false nation that didn't exist before.

Research and data from various sources including Zionist sources, shows that hundreds of thousands of Arabs lived in Palestine prior to the 20th century.

These neverending stories about Palestine being void of people until the middle of the 20th century, that no Arabs were expelled from Israel during the 1948 War, is tantamount to Historical Revionism and Genocide Denial.

This is a very good point.

I have started to find it very disturbing on this board to see the ease with which some allegedly pro-Israeli posters reinvent history with a flick of their fingers.

If Ben Gurion was man enough to refer to ethnic cleansing in 1947, I think Israelis living in the country he helped found could follow his example.

"Regarding the Galilee, Mr. [Moshe] Sharett already told you that about 100,000 Arabs still now live in the pocket of Galilee. Let us assume that a war breaks out. Then we will be able to cleanse the entire area of Central Galilee, including all its refugees, in one stroke. In this context let me mention some mediators who offered to give us the Galilee without war. What they meant was the populated Galilee. They didn’t offer us the empty Galilee, which we could have only by means of a war. Therefore if a war is extended to cover the whole of Palestine, our greatest gain will be the Galilee. It is because without any special military effort which might imperil other fronts, only by using the troops already assigned for the task, we could accomplish our aim of cleansing the Galilee."

David Ben-Gurion - Wikiquote

Wow, another false quote. Way to go.

 

[Hoffstra]

So "BY" 1948 Arabs had invaded Israel and Jordan in those numbers. And then Jordan was carved out of the mandate to give the invading Arabs a home. But of course that wasn't enough and the Arabs attacked Israel, not to create a "Palestine" but to destroy the Jewish state.

Thanks for the info.

The Arabs were no more invaders than the Jews.

 

[georgephillip]

No.

That's historically incorrect.

Most Arab squatters came to Israel at the beginning of the 20st century and suddenly invented a false nation that didn't exist before.

"Palestine was not an empty land when Zionist immigration began.

"The lowest estimates claim there were about 410,000 Arab Muslims and Christians in Palestine in 1893.

"A Zionist estimate claimed there were over 600,000 Arabs in Palestine in the 1890s.

"At this time, the number of Jewish immigrants to Palestine was still negligible by all accounts. It is unlikely that Palestinian immigration prior to this period was due to Zionist development.

"Though uncertainty exists concerning the precise numbers of Arabs living in the areas that later became Israel, it is very unlikely that the claims of Joan Peters that there were less than 100,000 Arabs living there are valid.

"Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries.

"By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times."

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

America was not an empty land when...

etc. etc. etc.

You have no point other than to complain about how many countries are created. Even if you single Israel out.

Jews have terrible timing. Settler-colonialist expansion in the US wasn't inhibited by international law. The same can't be said for the Jewish state; maybe Zionism would have worked in the 19th century or earlier, but it isn't working today. It is swirling the same drain that White South Africa disappeared into a generation ago. etc. etc. etc.

 

[georgephillip]

No.

That's historically incorrect.

Most Arab squatters came to Israel at the beginning of the 20st century and suddenly invented a false nation that didn't exist before.

"Palestine was not an empty land when Zionist immigration began.

"The lowest estimates claim there were about 410,000 Arab Muslims and Christians in Palestine in 1893.

"A Zionist estimate claimed there were over 600,000 Arabs in Palestine in the 1890s.

"At this time, the number of Jewish immigrants to Palestine was still negligible by all accounts. It is unlikely that Palestinian immigration prior to this period was due to Zionist development.

"Though uncertainty exists concerning the precise numbers of Arabs living in the areas that later became Israel, it is very unlikely that the claims of Joan Peters that there were less than 100,000 Arabs living there are valid.

"Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries.

"By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times."

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

So "BY" 1948 Arabs had invaded Israel and Jordan in those numbers. And then Jordan was carved out of the mandate to give the invading Arabs a home. But of course that wasn't enough and the Arabs attacked Israel, not to create a "Palestine" but to destroy the Jewish state.

Thanks for the info.

Exactly when was Jordan "carved out of the mandate?"

"The Transjordan memorandum was a British memorandum passed by the Council of the League of Nations on September 16, 1922. The memorandum described how the British government planned to implement the article of the Mandate for Palestine which allowed exclusion of Transjordan from the provisions regarding Jewish settlement.[1]"

Transjordan memorandum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Hoffstra]

"Palestine was not an empty land when Zionist immigration began.

"The lowest estimates claim there were about 410,000 Arab Muslims and Christians in Palestine in 1893.

"A Zionist estimate claimed there were over 600,000 Arabs in Palestine in the 1890s.

"At this time, the number of Jewish immigrants to Palestine was still negligible by all accounts. It is unlikely that Palestinian immigration prior to this period was due to Zionist development.

"Though uncertainty exists concerning the precise numbers of Arabs living in the areas that later became Israel, it is very unlikely that the claims of Joan Peters that there were less than 100,000 Arabs living there are valid.

"Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries.

"By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times."

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

So "BY" 1948 Arabs had invaded Israel and Jordan in those numbers. And then Jordan was carved out of the mandate to give the invading Arabs a home. But of course that wasn't enough and the Arabs attacked Israel, not to create a "Palestine" but to destroy the Jewish state.

Thanks for the info.

Exactly when was Jordan "carved out of the mandate?"

"The Transjordan memorandum was a British memorandum passed by the Council of the League of Nations on September 16, 1922. The memorandum described how the British government planned to implement the article of the Mandate for Palestine which allowed exclusion of Transjordan from the provisions regarding Jewish settlement.[1]"

Transjordan memorandum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Transjordan became a seperate protectorate in 1923.

 

[abu afak]

So what was the upshot of all the "cleansing"?
The Arab population Grew in EVERY Decade from 1880-1948.
It grew TWICE as FAST in the areas of Zionist Settlement.
(see MidEastWeb link an Israel Opponent posted earlier)

"So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."

- Winston Churchill - 1939
`
`

 

[RoccoR]

Hoffstra, georgephillip, Roudy, et al,

Well, part of this is true.

So "BY" 1948 Arabs had invaded Israel and Jordan in those numbers. And then Jordan was carved out of the mandate to give the invading Arabs a home. But of course that wasn't enough and the Arabs attacked Israel, not to create a "Palestine" but to destroy the Jewish state.

Thanks for the info.

Exactly when was Jordan "carved out of the mandate?"

"The Transjordan memorandum was a British memorandum passed by the Council of the League of Nations on September 16, 1922. The memorandum described how the British government planned to implement the article of the Mandate for Palestine which allowed exclusion of Transjordan from the provisions regarding Jewish settlement.[1]"

Transjordan memorandum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Transjordan became a seperate protectorate in 1923.

(COMMENT)

Trans-Jordan is always a topic within the Mandate that is high misunderstood. People generally understand the words, but not the meaning. There was even some confusion back in the 1920's concerning the status of Trans-Jordan. So, by way of clarification, I submit the following for your consideration. It is a comparison between the status of that plot of territory from 1921, before the Mandate of Palestine (1922) was actually written and 1929, long after:

Included in the area of the Palestine Mandate is the territory of Trans-Jordania. It is bounded on the north by the frontier of Syria, placed under the mandate of France; on the south by the kingdom of the Hejaz; and on the west by the line of the Jordan and the Dead Sea; while on the east it stretches into the desert and ends--the boundary is not yet defined--where Mesopotamia begins.

SOURCE: 1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921. AN INTERIM REPORT ON THE CIVIL ADMINISTRATION OF PALESTINE.

M. ORTS quoted the end of the declaration of Lord Cushendun:

"There should be no doubt at all in the minds of the members of the Council that my Government regards itself as responsible to the Council for the proper application in Trans-Jordan of all the provisions of the Palestine mandate, except those which have been excluded under Article 25."​

SOURCE: PERMANENT MANDATES COMMISSION MINUTES OF THE FIFTEENTH SESSION Held at Geneva from July 1st to 19th, 1929. including the REPORT OF THE COMMISSION TO THE COUNCIL

There are three confusing pieces that jumble this issue.

• The first, is that Trans-Jordan, by agreement via the San Remo Convention and as outlined in the Mandate for Palestine, would not subject any part of the territory, then called Trans-Jordan, for consideration as part of the Jewish National Home. In effect, no land East of the Jordan River could be subject to the special consideration given the Jewish National Home project.
  
  

  Paragraph 86
  
  This Order In Council Shall Not Apply To Such Parts Of The Territory Comprised In Palestine To The East Of The Jordan And The Dead Sea As Shall Be Defined By Order Of The High Commissioner. Subject To To The Provisions Of Article 25 Of The Mandate, The High Commissioner May May Make Such Provision For The Administration Of Any Territories So Defined As Aforesaid As With The Approval Of The Secretary Of State May be prescribed.
  
  SOURCE: Power to exclude Territories to East of Jordan from application of any part of Order

• The second confusing part is the official recognition of Emirate on 15 MAY 1923. In a special Treaty, Transjordan would be prepared for independence under the general supervision of the British high commissioner in Jerusalem, and recognized Emir Abdullah as head of state. While this changed the recognition and protection of Trans-Jordan, it did not lift it out from under the general Mandate of Palestine. The Mandate did not end until 1946 with the independence of the Hashemite Kingdom.
  
• The third confusing part was the expansion of the Emirate in 1925 to include Aqaba and Ma’an districts of the former Kingdom of the Hijaz.

Between 1928 and 1946, a series of Anglo-Transjordanian treaties led to almost full independence for Transjordan. While Britain retained a degree of control over foreign affairs, armed forces, communications and state finances, Emir Abdullah commanded the administrative and military machinery of the regular government. On March 22, 1946, Abdullah negotiated a new Anglo-Transjordanian treaty, ending the British mandate and gaining full independence for Transjordan.

SOURCE: History: The Making of Transjordan

Trans-Jordan was NEVER as separate protectorate. It was, however, separated (power of exclusion) from anything relative to the establishment of a Jewish National Home, and the special implementation of that objective; and by extension, so were Aqaba and Ma’an.

I hope sheds some light on the subject.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Roudy]

Hoffstra, georgephillip, Roudy, et al,

Well, part of this is true.

Exactly when was Jordan "carved out of the mandate?"

"The Transjordan memorandum was a British memorandum passed by the Council of the League of Nations on September 16, 1922. The memorandum described how the British government planned to implement the article of the Mandate for Palestine which allowed exclusion of Transjordan from the provisions regarding Jewish settlement.[1]"

Transjordan memorandum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Transjordan became a seperate protectorate in 1923.

(COMMENT)

Trans-Jordan is always a topic within the Mandate that is high misunderstood. People generally understand the words, but not the meaning. There was even some confusion back in the 1920's concerning the status of Trans-Jordan. So, by way of clarification, I submit the following for your consideration. It is a comparison between the status of that plot of territory from 1921, before the Mandate of Palestine (1922) was actually written and 1929, long after:





There are three confusing pieces that jumble this issue.

• The first, is that Trans-Jordan, by agreement via the San Remo Convention and as outlined in the Mandate for Palestine, would not subject any part of the territory, then called Trans-Jordan, for consideration as part of the Jewish National Home. In effect, no land East of the Jordan River could be subject to the special consideration given the Jewish National Home project.
  
  

  Paragraph 86
  
  This Order In Council Shall Not Apply To Such Parts Of The Territory Comprised In Palestine To The East Of The Jordan And The Dead Sea As Shall Be Defined By Order Of The High Commissioner. Subject To To The Provisions Of Article 25 Of The Mandate, The High Commissioner May May Make Such Provision For The Administration Of Any Territories So Defined As Aforesaid As With The Approval Of The Secretary Of State May be prescribed.
  
  SOURCE: Power to exclude Territories to East of Jordan from application of any part of Order

• The second confusing part is the official recognition of Emirate on 15 MAY 1923. In a special Treaty, Transjordan would be prepared for independence under the general supervision of the British high commissioner in Jerusalem, and recognized Emir Abdullah as head of state. While this changed the recognition and protection of Trans-Jordan, it did not lift it out from under the general Mandate of Palestine. The Mandate did not end until 1946 with the independence of the Hashemite Kingdom.
  
• The third confusing part was the expansion of the Emirate in 1925 to include Aqaba and Ma’an districts of the former Kingdom of the Hijaz.

Between 1928 and 1946, a series of Anglo-Transjordanian treaties led to almost full independence for Transjordan. While Britain retained a degree of control over foreign affairs, armed forces, communications and state finances, Emir Abdullah commanded the administrative and military machinery of the regular government. On March 22, 1946, Abdullah negotiated a new Anglo-Transjordanian treaty, ending the British mandate and gaining full independence for Transjordan.

SOURCE: History: The Making of Transjordan

Trans-Jordan was NEVER as separate protectorate. It was, however, separated (power of exclusion) from anything relative to the establishment of a Jewish National Home, and the special implementation of that objective; and by extension, so were Aqaba and Ma’an.

I hope sheds some light on the subject.

Most Respectfully,
R

These two maps that I post often, best portray what you just described.

 

[Ropey]

It doesn't matter. It's not as though there's anyone from the other side listening. Even their more moderate side takers don't so why would the more extreme ones?

There's the real quandary, not peace.

 

[Coyote]

It doesn't matter. It's not as though there's anyone from the other side listening. Even their more moderate side takers don't so why would the more extreme ones?

There's the real quandary, not peace.

I don't think either side listens very well.

 

[Ropey]

It doesn't matter. It's not as though there's anyone from the other side listening. Even their more moderate side takers don't so why would the more extreme ones?

There's the real quandary, not peace.

I don't think either side listens very well.

They don't have to since they've got all this 'help'.

That's why it continues.

 

[Coyote]

It doesn't matter. It's not as though there's anyone from the other side listening. Even their more moderate side takers don't so why would the more extreme ones?

There's the real quandary, not peace.

I don't think either side listens very well.

They don't have to since they've got all this 'help'.

That's why it continues.

Good point

 

[Hoffstra]

It doesn't matter. It's not as though there's anyone from the other side listening. Even their more moderate side takers don't so why would the more extreme ones?

There's the real quandary, not peace.

It is very dishonest to refer to Transjordan as "Arab Palestine" considering that the Balfour Declaration, nor the Palestine Mandate, nor the San Remo Conference, did such a thing.

Fact is that when the West Bank was ruled by Jordan, the USA referred to the West Bank as "Arab Palestine".